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Psycho I haven't played in a while, lets do a PvT on it.

ADDITION:

Ugh, theres something you should realize.. Why do you think you post maps here? So they can be played in professional games? No. Its for improvement, if you work on it, you can make it better, we dont hate it, and it can easily be fixed, so just do it.

Also, you shouldn't have to "encourage" expanding, experienced players should not have to be "encouraged" and newbs don't realize that theres less, they'll just turtle the whole game anyway.

"only" 4 cliffs that pose a threat? That is 4 too many, unless you do something to counteract them. As for calling the rest terrain, they can still be abused, no matter what your intention was.

Putting few minerals in the main does not encourage people to expand, it screws them over. Your main + in base expo + nat expo is still only 16 minerals, the same as most maps have on just main and expo. If people just randomly found the money required to expo, your map would be great. However, that money you think should be used to expo, is needed for troops. And the reason it is done on every other map is because IT WORKS. Unless you invent some new revolutionary resource design, sitck to the standard for the most part.

Take my advice for what it is. I in know why think i'm a melee god, but i do consider myself knowledgable on it. I would like to see your melee campaign, and judge you more thoroughly by that. I believe that experience gives those that have it the ability to correct those (in a sometimes harsh unnessary) way. Some do it because it feels good to feel superior, or just vent some steam off in a flame. And the way to overcome this is be kind, and ask questions.

I doesn't freakin' matter. If he wants to make a map like that, let him. I think he made it clear that he ISN'T A PROFESSIONAL MAP MAKER.

Heck, if everybody spams fastest money maps on bnet already, his is a huge improvement. Yes, it would help him to understand what it means to make a "balanced map", but if he can play that, and someone else can, and they find it fun, he's accomplished his goal as a map maker.

Besides, a good player adjusts to bad situations. If you're too cramped...compensate with better macro or indivudual strategy.

I think the map looks great.

[quote=Yenku,Oct 8 2005, 10:51 AM]
Psycho I haven't played in a while, lets do a PvT on it.

ADDITION:

[quote] Ugh, theres something you should realize.. Why do you think you post maps here? So they can be played in professional games? No. Its for improvement, if you work on it, you can make it better, we dont hate it, and it can easily be fixed, so just do it.[/quote]

If you insist <_<

[quote]Also, you shouldn't have to "encourage" expanding, experienced players should not have to be "encouraged" and newbs don't realize that theres less, they'll just turtle the whole game anyway.
[/quote]

I meant expanding a bit earlier and not relying too much on main base minerals...

[quote=decafchicken,Oct 10 2005, 08:48 PM]
"only" 4 cliffs that pose a threat? That is 4 too many, unless you do something to counteract them. As for calling the rest terrain, they can still be abused, no matter what your intention was.[/quote]

"the rest terrain" means you can't actually land on them. Meaning, they are pretty much just walls or bunches of un-landable cliff area. Hence, just terrain.
As for the "only" 4 cliffs, once again i'd scrap them, but since people dislike the map so much, it seems a little pointless. I'll update the map in a moment though, as I'm surprised people still comment on this map...

[quote]Putting few minerals in the main does not encourage people to expand, it screws them over. Your main + in base expo + nat expo is still only 16 minerals, the same as most maps have on just main and expo. If people just randomly found the money required to expo, your map would be great. However, that money you think should be used to expo, is needed for troops. And the reason it is done on every other map is because IT WORKS. Unless you invent some new revolutionary resource design, sitck to the standard for the most part.[/quote]

I don't need a system to match what everyone else does. This is just an encouragement to assimilate with the typical system of making melee maps... this aspect, anyway.

[quote]Take my advice for what it is. I in know why think i'm a melee god, but i do consider myself knowledgable on it. I would like to see your melee campaign, and judge you more thoroughly by that. I believe that experience gives those that have it the ability to correct those (in a sometimes harsh unnessary) way. Some do it because it feels good to feel superior, or just vent some steam off in a flame. And the way to overcome this is be kind, and ask questions.
[/quote]

I have yet to see any comments on LoK <_<
... maybe I missed it?


[quote=Hofodomo,Oct 14 2005, 09:54 PM]
I doesn't freakin' matter. If he wants to make a map like that, let him. I think he made it clear that he ISN'T A PROFESSIONAL MAP MAKER.

Heck, if everybody spams fastest money maps on bnet already, his is a huge improvement. Yes, it would help him to understand what it means to make a "balanced map", but if he can play that, and someone else can, and they find it fun, he's accomplished his goal as a map maker.

Besides, a good player adjusts to bad situations. If you're too cramped...compensate with better macro or indivudual strategy.

I think the map looks great.
[/quote]

Woo, positive support! SCORE 2 FOR VOLC!
(yes im exaggerating)

(play LoK... you know you want to...)

Edit: Ugh I wonder why I can't get quoting to work properly

The reason people post maps here is to have them improved.


If 2 people wish to play an unbalanced map, then so be it.


Thats utter bullblam. Judging by that comment, you have never played the game of Starcraft.

Can't you just take the advice and be happy with it Volcove? ;/

Actually, he has a point. If you really were good, you'd just adjust to what you were dealing with, instead of just mastering one type of general setup. One must improvise to succeed

Edit: Maaybe ultimo

The thing is, if you want people to improvise, you can't just give one race an imbalance, you have to do it for all races. Pro Maps (often made by not so pro people, yet they still understand the game) have very different setups and have to be played differently. For example, one could not play the map BladeStorm as they would play the map Nostalgia , 815, or a dozen other pro maps. There's plenty room for improvisation on all pro maps... hence why one must scout to stand any chance of winning. If anything, on your map players are much more limited, as anyone who wants to win (using the imbalanced race) will do only that, knowing it will work. Players would have to agree not to abuse certain flaws in the map which makes it kind of weak (because you might as well turn it into a UMS that forces players not to abuse it).

I know you think you're doing something new and exciting, and if it's new to you I guess it's all the same; but don't expect a lot of people to be very willing. I tried to make up new kinds of maps too (they all pretty much sucked, but I was trying to be innovative to make up for my lack of skill), where people had to alter their normal stratagies. But I mean, I think I put a little more thought into it than you. Sorry if we made you feel bad, or if we're mistaken and your map really does deserve more merit, but as of right now we don't think it is. You have to really sell it for us that it's going to be fun, and if you just don't care about that, maybe you shouldn't have posted it.

Thats what i meant to say, but was too lazy to type out, when i said "Thats utter bullblam. Judging by that comment, you have never played the game of Starcraft."
Thanks psycho

If you need a perfectly balanced map to "play well", is it your unit control/strategy, or terrain advantages? In a pro-tournament, people like balanced maps because at that level, it will make a huge difference.

He is a mapper making a map, not for other mappers, but for common Starcraft players. No, I am not a part of the Starcraft elite (and neither is the majority of battle.net players, where most people would play such maps), but I have played many games (mostly without spectacular micro or macro, and without stellar strategy, and without taking advantage of terrain), yet I enjoyed it.

I'm a member of the map-playing community. People make maps for people like me...and if I can't use high-end playing, then conform to the masses (like me).



Thats utter bullhonkey. Judging by that comment, you have never engaged in logical thought.

I enjoyed your campaign very much; however, I particularly enjoyed the third level. This is a good melee map! Heh, it looks balanced enough for me....

I dont know where you're playing, but most people play money maps, bgh, lt, hunters. I might see luna or nostalgia once every now and then. Most people do not join random maps they have never seen or heard of before. Then again most bnetters tell you what balances a map if their life depended on it.

Yes, it is well established that most bnetters play non-pro maps. So what's your point?

P.S. your last statement is a little unclear. I'm assuming you're saying that they can't.

Yea thats what i meant on the last statement, typo

Anyways, i was establishing that pubbies play a certain few maps, and virtually nothing else.

Right. I just wanted to put the point across that while making a map balanced is an essential part of good map design, terrain advantages/disadvantages are not what decides a game. It is split-second decisions combined with good long-term strategy that does.

We took like, what, two pages to get there?

Terrain advantages/disadvantages MASSIVELY affect the "split-second decisions" and "long-term strategy"

Right, but while I was watching some replays of old boxer and yellow games, I noticed that boxer would have stopped a 20 ultra and 40+ ling rush with mael/storm whether or not terrain was in his way.

You're totally right about the long term strategy part, but actually reacting fast enough to maelstrom three times and psi storm three times in like two seconds is not determined by terrain. And that allowed boxer (or whoever it was, I don't really care) to survive a couple minutes longer and outlast his opponents by outresourcing him.

Yes, terrain is very very important when applied to the whole game, but such actions like the one above are completely dependent on the player himself. It's different trying to push a dragoon army through a tiny ridge (that's where the terrain comes into play), but innovative thought and creativity are also essential, and when combined with good specific control, a good player (such as those Koreans ) can counterweigh problems terrain would pose. That's just from what I have observed.

It was one game, it was grrrr... (who's Canadian, by the way) vs zerglee and if the terrain had been different (such as, say, more open (or closed), no unbuildable terrain) [a lot of people think BladeStorm is an unbalanced map]) he probably would have done something different. It wasn't a rush at all, it was his late game stratagy... notice how he had lurks, mutas, and drops before he even got an ultralisk cavern?

Boxer plays Terran... and he's known for pulling some pretty sick blam during high level competition (as apposed to just playing strait up).

You know jack blam about the strategy (StarCraft or otherwise)... please, just stop.

Did you ever think maybe his strategy would have been ineffective were the terrain different? Do you really think his unit combo would be effective anywhere? How about an air map... or a map where his base and expansion are seperated by a fairly large distance?

You are far far far and away over estimating the ability to over come maps with ingenuity and skill.

Ingenuity and skill? Is that not what puts the good players up there anyways?

And PsychoTemplar, you mentioned that his unit combo would be ineffective on a different type map, and I completely agree. So undoubtedly, his units and build order would change, right?

But that's the point. If one attack/defense method isn't going to work, changing build IS "over estimating the ability to over come maps with ingenuity and skill". He would never have even used said strategy if his map was different. That's all a part of ADJUSTING TO THE MAP TO OVERCOME DISADVANTAGES (in this case, by switching to another build order/strategy).

And also (forgive me for being hypothetical in my speculation), if an experienced player were to play a relatively unexperienced player, but the good player had some major map disadvantages, who would likely have a better game? Would the greener player be able to exploit the seasoned one's disadvantages? Or would the good player overcome that disadvantage?

Now if the two players were on the same skill level, one would have an advantage. But would that other player not at least try something new and different to put up a fight (ingenuity and skill)?

And do not assume I know nothing about Starcraft just because (yes, I do suck at melee maps, but I can evaluate and think about the strategy) my ideas are different from the standard. My whole argument is, a good player will try to change his/her strategy/build or whatever to try and compensate for disadvantages in terraining. If a place is too narrow...don't go for a large dragoon army but use the narrow features as a choke point and go air. There is a chance that will fail, but it is still COMPENSATING FOR DISADVANTAGES. It is at least better than trying to maneuver a dragoon army through tiny canyons...

Yea, but that kind of sucks for one race and takes a whole strategy out of the game for that player where as the other player is unhindered and is allowed any strategy they want.

If there are going to be advantages/disadvantages in a map, I agree a player should compensate for it, but on pro maps, they have equal disadvantages for each race. This map s over TvP.

Just shut up now.

You're looking at having to come up with new strategies as a good thing..its not. It's limiting and unfair.

Well in this case it is...

This map reminds me of those Resident Evil type maps where the zombies will storm the area you defend. I usually don't like isometrical maps, but I think it looks pretty cool. I'll give it a try.

gj Volc.

Heh...

I modified it a little bit, I'll post it shortly. Hopefully more toss friendly -_-