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Actually it does, considering I'm using Piaget's theory. When I was younger, I would have read the word steal and thought "automatically wrong" too. By the way, it's not a bad thing, in my opinion, to question the credibility of a source. Failing to question the credibility of a source did kind of result in the Iraq War.


Funny. I thought that's exactly what happened. To clear something up for anyone still some how confused: I believe the poor family has better genes because they are harder workers and more devoted to society. Their ability to survive, is only hindered by extremely bad luck.

No one can work so hard that they deserve that much more money than everyone else. He got lucky.

Nothing compared to what he could donate without losing any of his standard of living. From a purly cynical point of view, one could draw the conclusion he donates merely to keep a half decent public image, which in the end, gets him more sales to rake in a higher profit.


The video said that... many times.


I was arguing that if the end result is a greater good, then it doesn't matter how many rules you break. Killing is wrong. But was it wrong to fight back against the Nazis in World War II? Hell no. Rules are meant to help society, but if a rule will hurt society, I personally won't follow it. Because I happen to have the ability to question previously accepted beliefs.

PS: Don't quote the entire post above yours. It's VERY annoying for anyone reading the topic and makes you look like a fool.

You don't really have a right to say what I think due to what you thought when you were younger. We're not clones of each other, we devolp differently. And stealing may also change your view depending on where you are. If your poor and looking for anyway to get an easy way out than of course you'd say "Bill Gates should donate 500,000 dollars to me personally. However if your in Bill Gates shoes you probably wouldn't be up to giving your money to someone who ended up getting poor. And I think that the idea of they're just unlucky, is stupid. If you actually did stuff in your life than you should be fine. Obviously this may be different in certain situations, but still. Rich People shouldn't have to babysit the poor ones. And how would you idenfy unlucky ones from lazy detestable human beinges?


Opinion Based. Computers are used in almost every single way, airplanes use them to fly, the army uses them to locate enemies and stop country threats, they also do a lot of math, and right now they're one of the main sources of communication. Bill Gates pretty much spearheaded most of that into common society. Though it may not seem as important as stopping world hunger, it is very important in life today.


He loses a lot of money per year and there's always comfort money, and when you're the head of a global company, that comfort money is a lot more than what other people call comfort money.


Excuse me for not watching the entire crappy rap that would've wasted 9 minutes of my life. But that whole thing started when the guy said he had a copy, which isn't a crime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Piaget
I believe in psychology. I find his work to be reliable and true. If you don't think psychology has any value in this world, you've been living under a rock.


When did I ever imply that? I'm not poor. I'm very well off, the fact that I own a computer with internet proves that. Maybe not well off by American standards, but enough that I have a lot of luxury in my life. Just because I don't live in a bubble world where everyone gets what they deserve, and harder workers really do get more than normal workers, doesn't mean I want an easy way out. It means I want to give my fellow man a fighting chance. Consider this: The Appartheid in South Africa. Were the blacks there stupid and inferior for breaking the law (including theft, hint hint... HINT!). Whites in South Africa during the Appartheid believed many of the things you're saying today. It's nationally recognized these were out of ignorance and were not true in any light.


Quote me where I said computers weren't important. Oh, you can't? Probably because I didn't. Bill Gates did not work harder than the average farmer to come into his money. He was simply given very good opportunities (which he seized, because he's not an idiot). My point was that any hard working poor person, given these opportunities would be just as successful as Gates.


A couple billion dollars of comfort money. Yeah, right.


Should I also excuse you for not reading my entire posts, yet participating in the argument anyway? Should I also excuse you for being totally ignorant of the lower class, preppy?

To get things straight, it is my belief that most currently Upper Class people, put in the situation (as in, from birth and on) of a Lower Class person would do no better than the Lower Class is currently doing. If you don't think you can change my opinion in this argument without changing this belief, DON'T BOTHER. This has long been my opinion and I firmly stand by it. We can agree to disagree if you can't, I don't care.

Religon and Conspiracy Theories have a lot of influence in life as well, that doesn't make them true.

I never said you were poor. I'm talking in general speaking. And keep in mind we're talking about dling video games and music illegally, not stealing food. You don't need video games and music, so you don't need to steal them. So you can survive without them, stealing food is a lot different from stealing music.

You said no one deserves that amount of money and I was showing you how much what he did affects common life for everyone. And it's not like he was sitting in his basement one day complaining about how he isn't lucky and will never be rich and then some Polish Guy showed up and was like "DUDE U SHUD DO DIS LOL HERZ 50 TRAILLION DULLRAZ". He didn't "get lucky" you make it seem like he did no work at all. Maybe Einstein just got lucky by thinking one day, he obviously can't think without luck. Seriously, your whole "Luck" factor is stupid.

It's a large company. It's not like he has a Trillion dollars.


Should I excuse you for being a presumptuous prick? I'm probably no more "preppy" than you are. If anything your more preppy than me with you "I'm always right" attitude.


This is proving my point that you are indeed thick skulled. Even if I were to show you a perfectly good reason (That didn't insult you) you would completely disregarded due to you being incapable of soaking in opinions from others. And since you blanantly just said you were never going to change it's not an "Argument" it's a waste of time. You just want to post to talk about how great you are and how your theory is impossible to prove wrong. Since I'm going to do what you suggest (Which is stop talking to a person who is too full of himself to take in anything that goes against what he thinks) and stop posting I'm hoping you won't waste anyone elses time by posting again.

Which you replied to. So yeah, we are talking about stealing food. If you had read my first post in this thread, you'd see I was against stealing video games. "Proving my point" that you're unobservant, and really should read the posts of the person you're arguing with.

I said he probably didn't work much harder than a farmer. Farmers work REALLY f'kin' hard, but they don't make nearly as much as Bill Gates. Einstein had a physically different brain. He was a devient and suffered/gained from his mental disorder.

I don't know about you, but I don't include deviants when talking about large numbers of people.

When I say luck/random, I mean that we can't choose whether we're born in a third world country, or are Bill Gates' kid. Not that any factor in life is actually random, just that we can't control many factors in life, let alone understand.


You are if you truly believe the idea that you, and your parents are superior to Lower Class people, and that's why you're richer than them. That's something rich people tell themselves to relieve guilt and responsibility from their minds.


Yup, I'm a complete mean person.

1st off, golden, I'm not sure why you bother arguing, he's already stated he doesn't believe in structured argument, (ie, rational), so that pretty much means "I'm right, you're wonrg, haha" is valid (which, not surprisingly, has been used... =/)

However, this conversation came down to whether stealing in general is right or wrong quite a while back

And one thing I must comment on:



You're right; he probably didn't work "harder" (whatever that may mean, physical exertion, time length, etc. etc...)... he worked smarter. He created something that, with his own effort, contributes far more than he would have been able to contribute as a farmer, no matter how "hard" he worked...

Once again, one would be amazed at a person's ability to endlessly do repetitive drone work. That doesn't mean they'd be good at nuclear science if "given the chance"...

The only games that are right to download are abandonware and freeware, but I don't see the harm in downloading games. The companies still make their money, more than what they need.

That's why I stopped. And I already got what I wanted which was him proving he's a prick and/or single minded so everyone's happy .

glad the argument is over, seems like it would go on forever.....

....

The illegal downloads of games is stealing which is wrong.....but depending your reasons, the extent of how wrong stealing this game would be could lessen.

...

Can i ask something?

I have seen and heard of game companies giving away free downloads for older games they made... where can i find these?

Google it
The first one on the list looks pretty legit. Havn't tried. Your own risk.

RIAA doesn't bother with people downloading the pirated items. They go for the people who share their pirated stuff. If they are to go on and arrest all those who download things like games, music, and others. They are actually going to have to arrest all of the country. Why bother?
It isn't morally right for the person to steal for the comfort. As this topic title clearly saids "downloading games". In my opinion, it is not right because it is clearly stealing something for it's own extra comfort. It isn't necessity.
"Stealing is wrong no matter what". It is true. In our society, everybody works for their things in all right, and they have the right to keep it. But if they are forced out of their property, it is invading their right, therefore wrong. Governments collect taxes to give civilians a good commercial enviroment.
Please, rational discussions. This isn't a board for illogical statements. Unacceptable.

**** you.

I was responding to this, *******.

It happened to be the only thing of interest really left in the topic. Ironically he never came back.


What is your problem!? Perhaps to the poster they were logical? Perhaps to the poster, everything isn't black and white? I saw that argument going no where, so I gave him an out. So then he decides to continue the argument... insult me for trying to end the argument, and then leaves the argument; and now it looks like I'm getting **** from you. (At least I think so, because you're on the opposite side of my argument, and you havn't given names. Way to be specific, *******).

Honestly, some of you need to show a little more respect if you expect to get any back.

If I get a warn for using sexy asterisks, it was totally worth it.

It's illegal and that means that it is technically wrong. I still do it though.

Care to get on topic and not pick apart each other's logic?

Sorry Moose.
So In conclusions, yeah it is not right because it invades other people's right to keep their property. They worked for it, thats what they get.

Poor people either did not study hard enough or did not understand their situation in economics. It is their mistake that they are poor.

So it's somebody's fault for being born into a family that is poor because they lost their house and everything they had because they got hit by a hurricane?

Thank God someone got it.

Of course not (yeah, I saw the previous post, which yeah, that's not entirely correct)...

But, that doesn't make stealing right... Stealing under needy conditions simply makes it far less "wrong" than stealing for the hell of it... That can go to the point of it being excusable, however, that still doesn't make stealing morally ok...

That's hardly a dent in his net worth. It's not even 1%.


How do you think the person got into the Upper class? Most everyone is given oppurtunities, be it school or just 'luck', the former being the more common one. If applied, one can get into college free, but typically the lower class people don't take these oppurtunities.


I concede that one might have a random act of disaster such as a hurricane that can destroy their lives, but the great number of unweathly americans are not in that position.


My view on downloading games that it is technically illegal and wrong, but some situations can allow for having them. If you have bought the game, you have the right to download the game if, for some reason, the disc or anything else associated with it goes wrong. Legally, you can't download copies of games (such as ROMS or computer games) but it is legal to own them, implying that you made the copy yourself. You can't have more than one copy, however.

Companies and the RIAA aren't going to go, specifically, after those who download, but rather after those who distribute. It's like drugs. If you're distributing, you're going to get a worse punishment than if you're just using or posessing.

Music, on the other hand, I have no problem with downloading, even if it is technically illegal. People always say things such as them losing money, but when have you ever seen a popular artist (from whom most of these songs are downloaded) need money to live (not to buy their new 5 million dollar house)? I can't recall a single time.

I think I've covered all my opinions.

Those people. Who got all their things swiped away by a hurricane. They are supported by the government. And they probably retain their jobs. Education is free. Theres million possibilities that you can work for and gain what you need. Those who are poor. Hobos. They dont even have kids anyways. They've lost hope.

Everyone is given an opportunity. Everyone can go to a school, and be educated. They may choose not to listen or to listen. They may choose to study and not to study. They may choose to go to college or not to go to college. It's all in their choice. Whether poor or not, its a matter of trying hardest and doing what you have to do and keeping hope.

Are you serious? After hurricane Katrina, people lost their houses. They didn't get them back. If they had a job in New Orleans, it's probably gone. They have to start new somewhere else.

How I feel: Downloading games is wrong, but I feel it's a victimless crime.

The world isn't fair. Just ain't fair. Communism is impossible for the world to flourish. But I think iam getting off topic so.

- Downloading games is not a necessity.
- Downloading games do not help your nation.
- Normally, games aren't that pricey. Its only 6.99~69.99
- It invades the right of the makers.

In conclusion, downloading games is wrong.

For me it depends on the quality of the game. I respect RockStar and Bioware (for instance) so much that I view downloading their products as an insult. As a result, I've gladly paid out probably more than 150 dollars for NWN and GTA games. Playing on a pirated copy would feel wrong, because it is such a great game.

I also feel that small artists do not deserve to be pirated. These guys are doing their job for a living, not doing their job with a couple million dollars in the bank. I've seen several pirated versions of Tim Buckley's animated Ctrl-Alt-Del comics (being sold as part of a premium package) around the internet, and I will not download those. The man is asking a mere for $12 (I believe) a year to be a part of the premium service and get these things; he works hard for his money; and he does not deserve to have his products stolen.

Aside from exceptionally talented companies and small companies, I view stuff as pretty fair game. However, especially with music, I tend to use it as a previewing opportunity. I've ended up buying full CD's from artists after downloading their songs. The reasons?
Downloaded stuff is crap quality (usually 128 kbps)
Once I listen to an artist's songs and really, really like them, I want a licensed copy for myself

P2p has put me in touch with music I never would have known existed. I might download some stuff, but by and large I tend to make up for it by spending money on a licensed copy of the product later. That's the way p2p should be used: as a previewing service for drumming up interest; rather than a pirating service to circumvent paying. The application of p2p in advertising has been proven by various individual artists, as well as a huge deal in the anime business (I hate anime personally, but read about it in a business mag).

Lithium, no matter how hard you work, if you're making $5.00 an hour you're NEVER going to get out of the lower class unless something that's a one-in-a-million chance comes along. The belief that "oh, people working two jobs on eight hour shifts just aren't working hard enough, that's why they're poor" is a little foolhardy. If you're poor, you can't afford to go to college, therby you're not going to get a high paying job because they REQUIRE A DEGREE. Do you realize HOW MUCH IT COSTS TO GO TO COLLEGE? We're not talking about homeless bums who don't work because they don't want to, we're talking about the working poor, who take all their pay check and put it all into their bills and food BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO.

Your arrogance annoys me, because this "we give everyone a chance, so stop taxing my upper-class ass, I worked for this money I got from my father's inheritance!" motto is a bunch of self-serving bull.

You stated the same thing as others did in a more complex way. Those who work in McDonalds are like that because they did not try their best in their educational years. All these jobs look into their behavior, grades, and current behavior. It all adds up. And for the unlucky ones... I can't help to say I'am sorry for them... but a perfect world isn't possible.

And yes I realize how much it costs to go to a college. Roughly about 5 grand through 30 grand(per term) depending on how good the college or the university is. Going far away? Then adding up those fees including apartment/rooms and other fees, its about 10 grand through 40 grand.

I believe that they can atleast go to a community college. And if you're poor, you try your best and you might earn a scholarship.

Like i said. World isn't supposed to be fair.
I tried not to go off topic.