Staredit Network

LOL!!!!

Only.

I agree with Choerdis. It should not be your only revenue for getting things, espeically with small bands and other things where 1 loss in a sale can affect their profits drastically. Downloading should be for 'tasting the slice before you buy the whole pie'. I wouldn't want to pay 10-15 dollars for a CD that I listen to once because I hate the music. I might download a couple songs, or hell, the whole album, but once I do that, and if I like it, I'll feel obligated to buy the album, providing it's not a huge corporate band like U2 or other big name bands.

Another thing adding to the rise in piracy is the cost of the items. It costs 15-20 dollars for a new CD. That is way too expensive. That's roughly 1.5-2 dollars a song. Apple was smart and started selling them to download for ~1 dollar a song, and a discount if you download the whole album, but it's still ridiculously high.

CDs arent that ridiculously high. But i'll go with you since i do download musics myself.

Indeed, how many hours of enterntainment does a game give you? How much is a movie theater ticket, which gives you about 2 hours on average?



If we're talking morally however, who gave you the right to decide who'se "made enough money" (ie, huge corporate band like U2), and who'se not? Further, if an artist, whoever it may be, doesn't want you to download their music, who gave you the right to decide that it's ok to download it anyway, because you might like it and buy the cd anyway?

If you don't like the artist's terms and conditions for getting their music, don't get it...

I'm just playing devil's advocate here btw, I do find myself downloading games and music



Perhaps if there wasn't so much piracy, companies could charge less?

The thing is for me, I can't come up with 50-60 bucks for a game. I have to scrounge money for a week to afford flowers for my girlfriend.

Same, I don't condemn it, but I don't exactly condone it either.


It's a vicious cycle. =\ Although, a cd only really costs a couple cents to create (the physical CD), so what's it worth?

Believe me when I say they wouldn't.

The whole problem with stealing from major companies is that most people think, "oh I'm sticking it to the man, and hurting the global powers" when in fact the ones being hurt most are workers. Figuring how the business executives always seem to keep their money, even after their companies go down. The problem in the matter of stealing is that our money structure goes from the bottom up, meaning that the first to go out are the ones doing the most labor. The poor ones who steal are dragging the poor who work down, while the rich play off them both. Thats the beauty of America.

On another point, a study was conducted a few years ago that found that people who admitted to downloading music illegally were also the ones who would buy the most legally as well. The people downloading music were helping the industry more than those who simply did not buy any music.
I'm sure this could translate almost directly with gaming, but I am not sure if they have done a study on the matter.

So aside from repeating points from my first post, anything else to say?


What happened to "STEALING IS ALWAYS WRONG NO MATTER WHAT! YOU'RE THICK SKULLED BECAUSE YOU CAN'T EVEN SEE IT FROM MY PERSPECTIVE! I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHY WE WASTE OUR TIME ON YOU!". Hypocrite. Practice what you preach please.


Well some people, such as myself, believe it can be made fairer. Look at Scandinavian countries for example. They're a huge step up from the U.S. to name one country. It's insulting when someone thinks that they're relieved of all guilt because they say "The world isn't fair" because couldn't a theif just tell their victim the same?



*PsychoTemplar contemplates the consequences of what he's just done.

Lithiun, thank you for ignoring my post. You thinkt that ALL poor people are educated enough to know about how to get scholarships? Or that they have time inbetween working ten hour shifts? Let me give you an example (coming from my own family, though we're actually lower-middle class, and a bit on the upper side too):

My mother's father left her mom. Her mother died when she about four, leaving her in the care of her grandfather and her aunts. She lived with them for a few years, mostly taking care of herself. Her aunts and eventually her grandfather died, placing her in foster homes. She ran away from a few, and was moving between these families for a few years. Eventually, she finished high school and became independant of the state's systems. She worked for a bit, and tried to go college after a few years. She lasted about a year, since it had just been too long since high school and I believe she started halfway into the year. So, she went to medical school for two years and became an LPN. She had my older brother Josh around this time, left his father because he was, well, an ass. She met my father, had me, and one day, while out, he got kicked out of his apartment and when she got back she had no idea where he had went.

^This just gives you an idea of what my mother's life has been like, it's not all of it.^ But you tell me my mother isn't a smart woman and you're a goddamn liar. Sometimes peoples lives aren't cushy, and yes, there are those excellers that break out of the class on scholarship, but not everyone is a straight A student, and not everyone has the opportunity to be one. Still, just because the poor are "uneducated", you can be cruel to them? Since when were these celebrities we see on television particularly educated? There's plenty of rich ass holes who inherited everything and so never bothered learning a damn thing. Just because I'm "repeating" a point doesn't mean it stops being valid, it just means you've failed to even try to comprehend what's being stated.

cruel to them? heck I don't know what you're talking about. You aren't cruel to any poor person as long as they can eat and live. I don't know where you get these things. you think iam rich? Think again. poor or not poor, people get free educations. they all get an opportunity ( in competition )

I wasn't refering to your points, Wilhelm, if you're talking to me. I meant the post right above it.

Except you can't make alot of money with just a high school education, while you'd like to make it sound like everyone can go to college. The system is broken. Try fixing it instead of feeding from the wounds.

Pretty much, if you're poor you're in a hole you can't get out of unless you get scholarships.

I specificly said I'm just playing devil's advocate.

"In common parlance, the term has come to mean a person who argues a position for the sake of arguing but does not necessarily believe in the argument; or who presents a counterargument for a position they do believe in, to another debater. This process can be used to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_advocate

Either way, whether I practice what I preach has nothing to do with the argument. My argument stands on its own without my actions. If you can't beat my argument without going down to the personal level, that's really your own fault more than anyones (which, to be honest, explains your fits of anger)

As I have limmited time right now, I only read the first page.
I think downloading is wrong...to some degree.
I think it shouldnt be illiegal to download games or apps that werent for sale for over 2 years.
You're not going to make more money from it by tracking down downloaders and sueing them than letting people download and get a good reputation for being (more) opensource (than others) and making great games.

I used to download alot of games but quit seeing how they lock those things up tight so you cant play multiplayer.
And only few games have good singleplayer.

I know what a devil's advocate is. You were not testing for weakness, you were commited to telling me I was wrong.



For example:

That is a statement which would suggest you believe is fact. It is not pointing out a hole in my argument. Devil's advocates point out holes, they do NOT take positions.


If you don't believe what you're arguing, why should I? Devil's advocates do not preach, they question the validity of arguments.

If you wish to continue, please do it in PM, as it is unrelated. I didn't because I'm publicly defending myself.

PS: If anyone reading yoni45's posts agrees with him, that I am thick skulled, and that I 'lost' (it's not as if there was a winner, since nobody was convinced) the argument please PM me. I won't argue with you, I'm just curious to see if there are people who think what he's saying isn't pure garbage.

Well then, I am publicly responding to your defence... Your whole "PM if you actually think he's right" is a pretty poor attempt at self-gratification... The insult again re-affirms the doubt you have for your argument...



That's correct. My actions didn't perfectly fit the role of a devil's advocate, I'll admit. I was committed to telling you you were wrong... Well, not completely right anyway. The part of the role that I did fit, was that I was arguing for the sake of arguing.



Devil's advocate is in itself a position, that which is opposite yours.

preach

v 1: deliver a sermon; "The minister is not preaching this Sunday" [syn: prophesy] 2: speak, plead, or argue in favour of; "The doctor advocated a smoking ban in the entire house" [syn: advocate]

Since I doubt you were using the word as to deliver a sermon, speak, or argue, (if the latter is the case, you would've likely used that exact word), I think it's safe to assume you meant it as "plead".

What you quoted was a far cry from a plea, it was simply a statement that contradicted your line of thinking. (which, last I checked, is part of the role of a devil's advocate ).


My point, just so this post promotes the topic, is that regardless of my personal actions, downloading games or music without the license or permission to do so, is wrong. The scale on which this is wrong is debatable. The same goes for stealing anything else.

Or maybe I thought that I might be wrong, and wanted to see whether or not you were alone. I havn't insulted you yet.

So you completly avoided the purpose of a devil's advocate, and yet, still felt the need to refer to yourself as one?

Devil's advocate takes no side. The devil's advocate only seeks to find weakness in an existing argument.

You were preaching that people shouldn't steal, and that it is always wrong. I used the correct word, which in most people, inspires images of someone telling you not to sin, while they sin right before you. It's sort of saying that "Do as I say, not as I do" is an unfair statement to make. Ever have a teacher who told you not to plagiarise, and then find the exact assignment he gave you, on the internet? Yeah, it's annoying and takes away all effect from said preacher's preachings.


So basically, even though you know it's wrong, you still do it. What's the point in knowing it's wrong, if it has no impact on your behavoir?

You're getting off topic. Please desist now.

I just downloaded a whole album and I don't feel guilty at all. Know why? Because I own it downstairs and it was qucker to download it than to find it. That is an example of how downloading is right, in my opinion.

"I'm just curious to see if there are people who think what he's saying isn't pure garbage."

Yeah, that's not insulting.

There's also a very specific difference between preaching and making argumentative statements. When dealing with morality, I can see how it can get confusing, so I can somewhat understand such a mistake.

But, anyway, there's really no use in arguing over semantics.



Because my personal behaviour isn't what's being debated. What is being debated is whether or not the behaviour is or isn't morally wrong.



And there's nothing wrong with it. You didn't pay for the physical disc, that costs pennies. You paid for the "rights" to personally enjoy the music, and that's exactly what you're doing.

This is down right a lie. Game devolpers are NOT loosing money from games being downloaded off the internet. For the main reason, people can not play them online due to needing a vaild serial key and finding crack servers are like trying to find a niddle in a hay stack. Plus most the times now you can't even make a crack server because you can't pass the login screen. Most of the gamers just go out and buy it now since the fact they can't play it online. All its good for is try and buy. Download the full version to play single player and if you like the game go and buy it to play it via online with friends and random people. If you don't like it, you just saved your self $50 (See Battlefield 2 and Earth 2160). The demos are not good since they don't give you the full experince of the game and don't show everything. If you browse the sites you will see what I mean with try and buy.

With the music. I love how the music companies are saying they loose millions of dollars in profits when they have no flippen clue how many people download music, all they do is guess. Again try and buy applies to this also. If you browse the sites again you will see what I mean. Many piraters download the music and if they like it they go out and support the band and buy the CD to have. If they hate it, they just saved them selfs a lot of money. Plus its stupid to pay $15 for a CD for only 1 song -_-. Its stupid to pay $1 for 1 song. Before they go out screaming their loosing money maybe they need to realize hey maybe the singers and making crapy ass songs? Again you will see what I mean if you browse the sites instead of believing the music/media industry -_-.

Same goes with the movies, and omg does it really apply here big time. For one, its a pain in the arse to save a movie you downloaded to a CD, most of the time they are broken into 2 CDS and are not made for DVD players. Then half the movies are crapy quality and try and buy applies here also. Use to see if you like the movie and if you do you buy and if you hate it you just saved your self a lot of money. Again you will see what I mean if you browse the sites. Also if you believe the media when they say they are loosing millions over warez movies, your a moron, there is LESS people downloading movies than music and software put together. Maybe they need to realize also that hey there making crapy ass movies, which in the last 5 years, 75% of the movies have been total crap. Easier for them to blame the internet about them loosing money instead of admiting they have been making crapy ass movies (don't believe with me movies? go see Doom and Ultraviolet) and songs (Don't believe me? Go listen to yellowcard, they have only one good song -_-).

I am with the downloading of songs,movies and games due to the fack it saved me hell lots of movies by not ending up buying a total crap game/song/movie. I mean who really likes wasting $50 for a game and finding out its crap and can't go return it? Least you can try it out in the full version in single player before you do. Same with movies and music. Whos gonna support a crapy band?

Choerdius. They do lose money... and... you can play most of these things online. If you think about it, they lose alot of money. If 100 people were to download a discography, about 4~10 CDs. It would cost them 6000$ ~ 15000$ loss. Now, people who download them are much more. I'd say about in the ten thousands.
100,000 people downloading a discography.
6,000,000$ ~ 15,000,000$ Loss. (Estimation). Thats a big deal of a loss. For each games downloaded; the company loses money. Don't just speculate, caculate.
Theres about 100,000 users on every big torrent site. Theres about 12 I know. Its not just about the company. Its about the nation and company, and eventually "you". Choerdius. Money needs to circulate.
Those crappy bands you talk about, are the ones who are gonna be the poor ones who work hard, and do not get a fair chance. Plus, you can listen to samples on the listener with bar codes. If you don't wanna waste money; think before buying it. Really, check the gamespot. It has opinions, reviews, previews, and ratings.

Perhaps it's legal to download music from Dutch artists, but regardless of whether you're Dutch or not you can not simply download music from anyone. If you download music from an American artist you can be held criminally liable by the United States Government, and your Dutch laws won't help you any there.

By the way, I'm going to take the money from your wallet right now. It's only a few dollars, you don't need it, right? You won't mind that I'm stealing it, because it's only a couple dollars. I shouldn't feel guilty about taking it at all.

Yes, let the millions of dollars assuage your conscience. Excuses are golden. Useless, but hey... at least they make you feel like less of a criminal. So you keep telling yourself that it doesn't matter.

So much for humanity.

I dont see how downloading games could be a bad thing, yes it is free but it would make your product be used worldwide, then just make another game and not allow it to be downloaded online for like the first couple months of selling it, tons of people will buy it and use it then put it online, this would work because it would be like advertisement!

By downloading games we advertize them. This is a profit for the company. But by downloading games we allso take away their profit.

It's the economist's time to calculate now - what is "bigger" - the profit or the loss.

Or they could just make good games. How many games were pirated for halo 2? Hardly any, because it's a great game. It made record sales

Same goes with movies. The last good movie in theatres recently was Big Fish and mabye Robots. All the other movies are either crap or remakes.