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Dude, leave the thread now. I just owned you. If that's the best you have than you may as well leave.

I may as well repost my last one because it's the counter. Tell me the process that follows is not harder than the process required for making a UMS map.

Also, I see you completely and conveniently ignored my VB comments.

I'll respost it shortly, you aren't getting off that easily.

Triggers may be difficult to some, but once you know them, there is nearly no limits, melee has strict limitations, it never gets easier like UMS.

[Repost, because he completely ignored it... wes, this guy isn't too bright ]

Alpha:




Yes, you did! You gave me a new arguement!

To someone who just opened up the campaign editor, it looks a lot easier to make a normal map that a UMS map. No triggers, no locations, no editing stats, all you have to do is place terrain. However, things aren't always what they seem at first glance.

100% of the maps that they make will be horrific. It happens all the time: UMS people post maps in the Melee Forums that are absolutely disgusting. We do our best to be nice and to give them pointers, but they rarely improve.

There is so much more to making a map than scribbling terran;

Balancing a map requires this:

• Balancing the map for all positions vs. all other positions.
  
• Balancing all of the positional matchups for: TvT, TvZ, TvP, ZvT, ZvP, ZvZ, PvT, PvZ, PvP
  
• Ensuring that none of the balance changes you make does not affect one of the other 107 matchups (assuming it has 4 start locations, and is intended for 2 players).
  
• Realizing that if one of the 108 matchups is imbalanced, everyone will know.
  
• Ensuring that the decoration does not imbalance one of the 108 matchups.
  
• Presenting the map to the intense scrutiny of thousands of skilled players, knowing that no one outside of a handfull will ever play your map if it is imbalanced.
  
• Rinse and repeat.
  

There are about 10 map makers in the world that have that ability. We at this site can only try.

However, UMS maps are like making a game in VB, but easier. You have everything made for you: the art, the pathfinding, the physics, the scripting system, and for the most part the sound. All you have to do is plug those parts in.

Programming is much harder than UMS. Try making a game from scratch with Managed DirectX (no need to use the harder unmanaged DX, I don't) and tell me whether I don't know what I'm talking about.

ADDITION:


How stupid can you be? Where did I say that? I was responding to the hacker's post saying that Starcraft wasn't deep or fun.

Also, since you think that all we do is "place terrain", you should read the top part of this post.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you think that the testing process isn't hard, you are completely wrong. People will give you advice that doesn't work, they will say things that imbalance something else. and it is up to the map maker to wade through it all.


You know you are wrong, and now you are resorting to clever 1-liners to try and salvage what little chance you have left of winning.

I do love oov.

If you're gonna throw me out for not agreeing with you, you mind as well throw every one else that's on the ums map making side out too. But you didn't say everyone, you just said me. So that leads me to believe that either:

A - You believed the ums side would some how admit defeat right now.

B - That you have a personal hatred of me.

It's one of the 2. Well, a 3rd option could be that you're just stupid. That's able to be on too.

As for the VB arguement, as I said before;
You're not making a game, you're making a map.

You didn't make sc. You didn't make melee. You just made a map TO it. That's it. So stop indirectly acting like your side did.

Yes, we make a map that must fit into a complicated, sometimes conflicting, but very well-defined ruleset, and you make something that is not only more simple than making a game in VB, but you have all of the media, pathfinding, animation routines, phsysics, etc. done for you.

I made those comments because you are the one being the most dense, and you ignore points even more than the hacker does.

To repeat myself because you probably missed it:

If you think that the testing process isn't hard, you are completely wrong. People will give you advice that doesn't work, they will say things that imbalance something else. and it is up to the map maker to wade through it all.


You know you are wrong, and now you are resorting to clever 1-liners to try and salvage what little chance you have left of winning.

ADDITION:
One more thing: you are defending UMS purely because you don't want to admit what you do is easier than making normal maps, but I don't even make maps anymore because it's too hard making a good one.

You're acting like I don't have the ability to admit I'm wrong, when I am indeed wrong. And the only reason why I'm not admiting I'm wrong, is because I'm not wrong. I feel you think the same way.

Melee maps seem like they're made by perfectionists. People that need things to be perfect. So they keep working on it, over and over and over again. Like, rinse, wash, repeat. If they did that to a UMS map, can you comprehend how much more time they would need to spend testing and balancing the map?

It's harder to create a melee map according to you guys, because your audiance follows a strict set of rules. If our audiance followed rules as harsh as yours, we'll be spending years working on a game.

This is more fun to watch than anything. Ihatett owned devilesk in the last 12 page discussion about this, so I give him the upper hand.

lol. I'm gonna get me some popcorn now.

He didn't own me, wtf are you talking about? Fool go read the topic again.



Rofl so you're saying that UMS maps have the potential to be better than melee maps, it's just that you UMS mapmakers are lazy and don't need to put any effort into your maps because the people that play them are noobs? LOL!

Whoa, devilesk just said something that I agree 100% with, I even put this to test last night, I created a game called "GOATSE PICTURE, JOIN" game filled up in seconds, I posted about it in Moose Zone, but Chu ing locked it, it was really the goatse bmp2scm'ed too. Newbs will join anything UMS related.

That's exactly what I'm saying. I mean, if a bound can make people go wow, I start to lose hope in ums. I don't see many melee players go, wow on a stupid melee map. (Infact, I don't see them go wow on melee maps at all really. It seems ultra rare)

If only the ums audiance was more snobby towards maps.

The whole point here is that UMS maps are mroe open ended. You don't have the pressure from tens of thousands of players explaining why, "Your map would add to the terran imbalance!", or "How the hell could a toss ever beat a zerg here!".

We have to be perfectionists because anything less than it can and WILL BE exploited by everyone.

The fact that the proffesional map-makers still make imbalanced maps (Forte is impossible TvZ), is should turn on some lightbulb in your head.

Maybe once you really get to know Broodwar, its strategies, and its history, you will realize what I am saying.

ADDITION:
Devilesk has finally realized what Broodwar is really about.

Thanks capn conscending. You see, I just recently got sc. I never really played melee that much.

But to the average person, you have a harder time on your side. Because you got snobby melee people. On our side, our average person is a dumbass newb. But if you got the top 10 of each side, ums would have a harder time.

Not only must you compare the best of each side, you must also compare the best JUDGES of each side. Then, when all is done, we look at what each side had to do in order to make that map. And you can quote me when I say this, "ums would win."

Most UMS maps might only take 5 minutes and it's all the people against the triggers/comps (defense, bounds, etc...) Therefore newbs play these, they can't compete with human players, so they go to where it's everyone against the trigger.

There is no "best" of UMS, you have failed to show a UMS map that can compete with melee maps, that are more indepth than the game of SC.

Yes, that is true. It is way too abstract to find one.

I will admit, I was wrong. Melee map making is harder, only because it has more rules to follow. Your side is currently right hate. Until ums has better standards, melee will be harder to make in the end.

It's mainly about standards in the end. You don't make just so you can play them, you make maps so other people can play them. And if those people demand a top notch, 100% balanced map, then you're in for a lot of work. (Really boring work in my personal opinion)

But if your average player likes basic bounds, or some type of DBZ themed game, then you got it made. But if they want a great 10 hour RPG, then you got a much harder time than melee could ever have. And no ums person today is like, "all I want is a 10 hour RPG."

But this makes me think, maybe the reason why people demand more stuff for melee, is because blizzard did such a great job on sc. They did so good, that there are tv channels just for sc. As well as tournaments that reward cash and fame. And melee map makers have to try to match up to blizzard's standard of balanced perfection. Ums, they have nothing to really compare to. They're just by themselves, creating their own little worlds, and playing them. Instead of always playing in some one else's own world all the time.

It goes back to what millenium once said:
Inventive people should make ums maps, while artistic people should make melee maps.

But that is only half true. You see, people that make ums maps are also artistic. Look at LoH sometime.

While melee is just for artistic people period. And for perfectionists that try to get things 100% perfect. And everything to a perfectionist is harder. No matter what it is. They have the hardest time with anything period out of the 3. Maybe that's one of the reasons why you guys have a harder time. Not because the map it's self is more complicated, but because the standard for it is.

No, you can't be 100% creative, because you must also have knowledge of balance and such.

First of all, I can't believe that you admitted you were wrong. O__O Never seen that before.


That being said, I feel that I should respond to this paragraph. I would think that UMS makers would be considered artists. They don't have rules to follow, and they can make whatever they want. Melee map makers would be... logicians? I don't know what word I would use.

And the standards are so high because they are forced that high by the players. Any imbalnce on any map is exploited like you wouldn't believe.

Ums are the logic people. They're the ones making logical systems. If and then is a part of logic. Triggers are basically logic.

Btw, this isn't the only time i've ever admitted I was wrong. There's been many I've done so. Just look at some of my posts in the serious discussion forum.

Yes, the trigger system is a series of logical gates (anything even remotely resemblying programming is), but you aren't constrained by any complicated ruleset besides the trigger system.

Logician wasn't the best word, like I said; I don't know if there is a word for it.

Lol, maybe you just aren't a mapper.

Alpha, I agree that there should be stricter standards for all maps. You see, for a UMS map to get up to the "standards" of melee, you'd have to spend all the time spent balancing in melee actually making the UMS map to create options, strategies, etc. You cannot possibly expect to make a good map in 5 hours. Can we agree that for any map to be indepth takes many hours?

*Edit* I'd call melee mappers "problem solvers." Each type of mapper has to have logic, or the map can't be made. There, I compromised with mapping.

No, I just got tired of releasing mediocre maps that didn't stand out from the rest of the pack.

You can make up stricter standards for anything, but that doesn't mean they will be as refined or as intelligent as those standards that govern normal map-making.

It doesn't mean they will be, but it doesn't mean they'll have to be. It certainly won't take us seven years and counting (though it will probably never occur to begin with).

I think a good first start would be to at least limit the number of bounds and defense maps made by... about oh let's start off with 100%.

Why wouldn't it take as long?

It would take even longer, because there aren't as many players of UMS.

Ya, and you're not constrained by any complicated rule sets, besides the balancing. And btw, every map requires logic. It's just how much logic does that map need? That's the question. And I know good ums maps demand MORE skill in logic than good melee maps.