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Picking favorite maps is a horrible idea, no offense. Many of these ideas focus on highlighting the most popular maps instead of the best maps, and Premium Maps should be for high quality maps made by ANYONE, no matter how popular. If people just wanted to play "favorite" maps they would just join random pubby games.

Which is also my biggest problem with the reviews. Reviews take a lot of work for a massive amount of maps, so only the most popular maps would get reviewed. I have absolutely nothing against making a "favorite maps" type section, but it should be called "favorite maps," not "premium."

And yes, my method would require a definition to refer to. It doesn't need to be complex, we could just have it, "Professionally made, enjoyable, and worthy of being considered an elite map." That would work perfectly.



I really think that a Premium Maps section that feature many high quality maps that aren't so popular would be a great way to differentiate the excellent maps and mediocre or subpar unpopular maps in the DLDB, enhancing the overall quality of it as well. That should be the point of it all, since popular maps are already popular and don't need to be further highlighted as much.

Good point. The distinction between popular and quality is important. That makes it important to get good reviewers, since the public is really bad at making that distinction.

For that, we should factor in to Solution #3 those who review only the popular maps versus those who branch out to the less popular/more obscure ones. That would definitely be a factor in measuring a quality reviewer.



Remember the system I proposed is designed to be automated, so that long after people have lost interest in maintaining it (like with the current system) it's still working. Plus having it take care of that aspect automatically frees up people to focus on more important things. I think that is the best solution, really.

Exactly, that's why I called it "favorites" as opposed to "premium." I don't think this should in any way affect the Map Spotlight or a potential "Premium Maps" section. I just think it would be a nice addition to profiles.

You are reading my mind.

Popular = Best maps. Maps become popular because they are good.

No. No. No. That's at least NOT the way I see 'best map'. Bounds and hack 'n slash "RPGs" are populair, but are usually made within the hour (or could be made that fast). In fact, they are probably so polulair BECAUSE they involve nothing but killing everything and everyone.
A 'good map' is, from my point of view, not just that. For example I think that System Shock 2 is a brilliant game. It is so much things, it is scary, exciting, quick, slow, long, short, etc. Everything in it is great, well thought out and just brilliant. And well, Bound #8435 isn't.

I agree. No bounds should be in the premium maps section. Premium bounds lol.

Tux, I think I don't completely understand what you are proposing. You stated that it would be automatic... how can making reviews be automatic? I'm sure I'm missing something here. The idea behind my yes/no system is that all the elected members would have to do would be to play the game, not write up anything afterwards, so it is the least effort possible. Also, would there even be a Premium Maps section with your idea, or would it just add a review section to the DLDB?

Daed's original idea was to make a new section where you could with ease find high quality maps, separating them from the rest of them. My proposed plan has a submission system, allowing ANYONE to submit a map, creating the exact system that Daed originally wanted, which I believe (and hope many others do as well) would be a great addition and feature to our DLDB. It would highlight many SEN maps and allow them to receive the recognition that they deserve of being premium maps.

There COULD be a distinction for "pro bounds," but all the good bounders already know all of them anyways, so no bounds in it is a good idea.

Also, saying that good maps just become popular because they're good is like saying songs become top hits because of their musical quality.

Well, yea I agree that all popular maps are not good. Actually there isn't any certain way how to say is this a premium map or not. It's map depending. Thats the problem.

You play it, and you see if it matches the simple definition. Everyone has their own opinions, but if it is a majority opinion out of 6 people that it deserves to be a premium map, then it probably does deserve to be one.

Incase something slips through the cracks, you could even have a voter recall, if atleast so many regulars vote and 4/5 want it to be removed. If it doesn't get through, have it so you can resubmit the same map 3 months later.

Like I said before. We'll end up with public votes.

Alright, better idea. No public votes. If atleast half of the panel of elected judges wants a map removed from premium maps, then it can be removed.

I have another idea. A bit simmilar to some things posted before.

Make a another new forum about premium maps. Or replace the review forum as it's mostly dead. Make like 2 or more DB keepers moderate it. Those sould be the most trusted and fair keepers.

Now people would post topics(poll) on maps they think should be named premium. There people would vote, review and discuss why the map should or should not be a premium map. Also the same as in review forum, map author can't post his own maps.

The map would need certain amount of positive votes. And the topic should contain somehting more than just votes. Good references and stuff would be important.

Now the DB keepers who moderate the forum would move the maps that deserve premium status to the new premium category. This is the easies way I could think of.

This way nor Moose nor I will have to paly ever single map in the DLDB.

It's worth a try, isn't it?

Actually it wouldn't be a public vote. You could use this system where the elected judges can vote on maps over again after a thoughtful report is made by anyone on why the map should be removed. Basically we'd make a report feature for each premium map. If someone doesn't like it and makes a well thought out argument, then it can be taken to a new vote.


Well I don't think these "judges" would have to play every single map in the DLDB considering the public would nominate maps and then the judges would review those maps that have been nominated. Of course the judges could suggest maps that they remember from the DLDB that weren't exactly nominated by the public. But they wouldn't have to go back and look at everything.

Dead, with one modification, I think your idea is the only one other than mine and the original proposal (which didn't have many details, was more of an idea) that I'd support and think to be a great idea.

The modification would be to allow people to post their own map, suspending the ability from people if they submit a bunch of crappy ones. Also, you could only submit 1 map of your own at a time. This would allow ANYONE who has a map in the DLDB to be considered for premium map status, not just people with friends on SEN. In order to be truly not fame-based but quality based, you have to allow people to post up their good maps.

Great idea, overall, though. Same basic premis as mine of having maps judged by quality instead of fame, only it's more interactive. More work than a simple yes/no, but the work would be more fun and more spread out among people, so it would even out in the end.

Yea, actually nominating your own maps isn't that bad. And if moose will decide to start this thing the only thing the lazy ass will have to do is create/remake a forum for this, a new category and few keepers who would move the maps that will win the status. It's nothing more than 15 minutes to do in overall. Well, maybe to decide on which keepers to assign to this.

So then the review thing is being thrown out and the public is essentailly deciding the vote? I thought that was the dangerous idea when this whole discussion began. Basically no one really trusts the public because beneath it all, we're all elitists.

"The public" includes anyone and everyone who happens upon the map. The majority of them likely wouldn't be good at making reviews, but some may. The point of my original proposal is to work out an automatic system to recognize those who make good reviews versus those who don't and count/reward them higher than the rest over time. Similar to voting for designated reviewers, but not as limited.

With proper incentives, people'll do anything. You can't expect such a massive undertaking to be entirely voluntary you know. If there was something specific in it to gain, you'd get people stepping up out of the crowd to do this stuff willingly.

Well, my idea is to elect a panel to do a yes/no system, while DEAD's is much more of an interactive conversation on each map whether or not they deserve to be there. DEAD's requires more work on each map, but I think it is the overall best idea, especially if we have a bunch of people that will check every single map posted in the premium maps submission forum, which I myself would elect to do.

ADDITION, since I didn't see Tux's post until I finished mine: I don't see how you can have an automated system for good reviews and not good reviews, nor do I think it is mandatory. I think we can add a "review this map" feature for every map in the DLDB as well as add in a premium maps forum where people can submit their own maps to be considered for premium map status.

I'm in the same boat as you. I think both of your suggestions are great, though I think the yes/no would work better. Obviously it would still require the elected judges to personally review the maps they're looking at so there's still that aspect of it.

And just like you, I'd elect to do it as well. I don't think any incentive is necessary as Tuxlar puts it. I'd do it even if I got nothing in return. I think its fun, actually.

Devlin, we could even have it for map nights especially that we can try out all the premium map submissions. I agree that incentives aren't needed, and that minerals or something like that isn't much of an incentive anyway. I still think Tux's idea is a good idea, as well, and reviews can be implemented to the DLDB as well as the premium maps section.

So, the next step... how do we get the ball rolling on setting up this forum and DLDB section, once we get the support for it?

I'm not talking about you guys. I'm talking about general public guys. Considering how insanely popular the current map reviews system has turned out being (sarcasm), frankly, you guys are unreliable over the long term. Judges will eventually stagnate or get overwhelmed. We all still have lives outside these forums, after all. Using a system to turn over judges every once in a while might help, but that too requires effort to maintain it.

I'm talking about having a system that'll last long after the stagnation has begun, channeling people who would come to this site from the blue, play a few maps, and decide to review them. If these people can be harnessed and rewarded for doing that, then you'd not only promote better quality reviews in general from the general public, but also eleviate the need for designating reviewers. No reason you still couldn't do that too, though (even if the rep system would kinda do that already for those who consistently produce good reviews).

No, it's not manditory. Nor is having map reviews in the first place, while we're at it. But if you're gonna do it, I say do it right. The current system of picking a few stars and leaving some comments is inadequate. A process that can be used to decide if a given person's stars and comments (assuming we'd use that system) were worth something would help a little, but compounded with a system that actively encourages reviews, it should work very well.

Remember once you have the basis for accurately judging quality, you can begin to form the criteria for whatever you'd want to call "premium". One has to come before the other, though, or it'll just be a system wrought with bias.


If you don't see how you can automate such a system, re-read my first post (solution 3). It wouldn't be unfeasible to implement, but you'd have to put some work into translating it to code. I've seen bigger tasks handled before, though, and with it's return value it would definitely be worth it.

Going my way we wouldn't need judges who could stagnate. We wouldn't need any new features coding wise. And nobody would have to work his ass off to run this. What can we loose.

Neither would anyone need to put much work with 'my way', once implemented. No more than initially creating the system, and the obvious time and effort from people who'd have to make the reviews in the first place. Maps won't review themselves, so assume that element at least is a constant.

But what was your way again, exactly? From backtracking through posts (getting to be too many to reply to) was it the one where you pick 3 favorite maps and then decide the "premiums" from those? The problem there is that it falls into the ugly realm of popularity versus quality, though. Again, we all know what's popular here. The value of a premium maps system is to highlight not necessarily what's popular, but what is quality.


In a perfect world, the two are one and the same, but we don't yet live in that kind of world. But we'd be closer to it if there were more measures to bridge the gap, at least. I think that's the goal here.

Well, we won't get anything by arguing here. And trust me nobody is going to code anything new into v4 anymore. And v5 isn't coming along anytime soon. So let's stay to sothing real.