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They also take more time in production, which is generally more difficult as well. However, melee has thus far been given more time and concentration in testing.

Wow more time in production, most of it is because they are just copying triggers over and over, which most of the time requires no though at all. And even if they aren't copying, and just making triggers, it's still very easy, it's just more time consuming. That doesn't mean that it's hard to do.

It sure as Hell is when you have hundreds of combinations of death triggers to work out, and thousands of triggers to keep in mind.

Yea it is time consuming, but still not very hard. There's nothing that really makes you think, you just have to keep track of stuff like that and know what you want to do.

It requires a great deal of logic, often, especially in RPGs and tactical maps where death counters are present in great quantities. I would bet you $50 that a good hard trigger system would be harder to do than any terrain.

I agree with you on that.

I still think that a Melee would be harder (For me at least) cause I tend to find the triggers, easy and simple (since I have learned C++)

Nothing that really makes you think. NOTHING THAT REALLY MAKES YOU THINK??????????????????????

What ums maps have you been playing?

All of them. And I am very experienced with triggering too. Once you sort through what you want to do, and organize it, the triggers are pretty straightforward and logical.

I'm very experianced with triggers as well, and I know they require you to be great at logic in order to use them. (I'm not talking about simple triggers, like in most bounds or rpgs. I'm talking about the really complicated maps)

So how does melee REQUIRE more logic than ums?

... who said I was talking about more logic in melee? I was talking about the amount of time it takes to trigger those triggers, isn't due to how complicated it is, the process is just time consuming. I was responding to another comment about how triggers take forever to create, so they must be hard. I was saying they aren't.

I never compared the logic to in UMS to Melee.



That was what I was responding to.

Also, if you're talking about REQUIRING anything, melee wins that, because to be a good UMS map it doesn't require much, but to be a good melee map it REQUIRES balance or else no one will play it. UMS maps don't require complex triggering or any of that.

But it does REQUIRE (we keep saying that word in caps thanks to me, ) more skill in logic. Just like it REQUIRES more creativity.

And how can you say triggers are easy? Look at all the people that have such a hard time with them. Just cause their easy to you and me, doesn't mean their easy to everybody. Infact, I bet when you first started triggers, you had as much hard of a time as me.

So please, don't just throw triggers aside as if there's no logic or work involved with them.

EDIT - Please, give me a link to a great Melee site. I want to see the greatest melee map maker's works of art.

Actually I found learning triggers more easy than melee terrain. Look at the people who have a hard time with triggers? Look at all the people who create crappy melee maps, and NEVER make a good one ever, there's a reason why there are tons of UMS maps that are "popular" and only a select few that are played, the UMS maps are easier to make, made in bigger quantities, and don't require perfection to be played.



When have I said there's no logic or work? In fact there is logic and work, and the only thing that makes it time consuming is the work involved, the fact that it's based on logic makes triggering easier than other things and more straightforward.



What point are you trying to make if you admitted you were wrong, and aren't even arguing anything right now?

That's a great point you said. We make more maps. Therefore, our overall average is lower. Cause we got a LOT more newbs making stupid ass maps. Which makes me jump for joy, cause I got them representing me.

And just because it's popular, doesn't mean it's good. And also, melee maps don't require perfecton to be played. You can still PLAY them. Like look at Blizzard's 1st few maps they made, they weren't perfect. They weren't 100% even. But they still were playable. Not my fault there is a gigantic group of people that bitch and moan on why X map is uneven. And why they sometimes could have endless arguements on why a map is uneven. Seems to me more like you guys spend about as much time argueing about the map, as you do actually working on it.

BTW - Did I just see you throw off logic as well? Act like logic can't be complicated? Did I just see you say logic is easier compared to other things? Did I seriously see that??????? Cause you know, logic is nothing like math. I mean, it's not like they give us a basic logic lesson on the 1st day of our geometry class. I mean, that wouldn't make sense.

And I still don't have a link to a great melee site. I want to check out why I admitted I was wrong earlier. See if I did indeed choose the correct choice.

Just because more people make UMS maps that are played, doesn't mean your average SHOULD be lower.

Thats why I said "popular"

They were "playable", even DONT MOVE is playable. Not your fault people argue about X map being balanced? That's one of the reasons why Melee is better than UMS right there. People don't accept mediocre melee maps, unlike UMS players who will say anything is decent and play on it.



Ah it "seems' like, well it seems to me like you're wrong.



Did I throw off logic? I think not. Logic isn't complicated, it's just as complicated as you make it. If you're well organized, then logic can be easier than if you didn't keep track of everything you were doing. Yes you did see me say logic is easier than compared to other things. Being logical is easier than being creative I will say. Triggers are conditions and actions, it's that easy. If X condition isn't met then Y action won't run. You just put a bunch of those together and boom you have something "complicated". See, it all flows in an orderly, linear way. If you look at triggers and the actions and conditions they have you can follow what is going on. Logic in triggers doesn't get more complicated than other things logic can be applied to.



teamliquid.net is a good melee site with a good forum, ask ihatett for other good melee sites.

You still don't understand what I'm even talking about:


The fact is, logic doesn't make triggering time consuming, selecting which action/conditions and setting all the properties of each action and condition is time consuming.

Rofl, btw, as the quote up there says, I'm not comparing the logic required in both types of maps, I'm just saying that logic in UMS isn't very hard


And just because you have to think logically, doesn't mean triggering is hard as well.

I get your point, I was wrong on the average part, But I still don't want stupid maps representing ums side, as much as you want stupid melee maps representing yours. And again, just because it's popular, doesn't mean it's good.



One of the reasons? That's the ONLY reason I can think of.



Ah it "seems" like, well it seems to me like you don't have a defence.


Ever heard of trigger systems?



Thanks for the link man, I'll check it out after this post. I feel I am currently too ignorant to represent my side right now. (A nice bullshit self promoting position I may add)



Selecting which action to use, IS logic. Did you reread what you typed? Cause personally, sometimes I don't either.

Again, that is why I originally said "popular"



I believe ihatett made a list of things melee maps had to have



Lol, this is funny, I guess I'll have to explain it too you, since you dont get the point. I was implying you were being ignorant Plus that's such a generalization and stereotype.



Do you have any examples of this so called arguing? What you might think as arguing I would see as people actually talking about balance issues and ways to fix them, or debating whether it truely is an imbalance. Also, arguing about the map isn't a bad thing, at least people critique Melee maps, and really force the mapmaker to fix them



Is that supposed to make me shudder in fear because trigger systems are so complicated? Do they somehow break the rules of, if X condition is satisfied then Y action happens? I think not.



Selecting which condition to use is logic too, creating the whole trigger involves logic Yes I reread what I typed, what's wrong? Plus it doesn't matter, you pointed out a flaw, so I just clarify.


Also, I was never bringing stupid maps into this either. Also, if you get my point, why are you still trying to talk about logic? There's nothing to argue about.

Alpha, there's no use arguing. You'll find out that Dev is just too stubborn to admit any form of defeat, even... compromise about a position because he's just like that.

Where is the arguement here?

Proffesional "melee" map makers -- the people who make maps for the televised pro-leagues -- still make imbalanced maps. On the other hand, many random kids on this site can make great UMS maps.

If that isn't enough to prove it for you, then you are only arguing for the sake of not wanting to be wrong.

I forgot to add something to my large list of things you have to do when making a map:

• Balancing the map for all positions vs. all other positions.
• Balancing all of the positional matchups for: TvT, TvZ, TvP, ZvT, ZvP, ZvZ, PvT, PvZ, PvP
• Ensuring that none of the balance changes you make does not affect one of the other 107 matchups (assuming it has 4 start locations, and is intended for 2 players).
• Realizing that if one of the 108 matchups is imbalanced, everyone will know.
• Ensuring that the decoration does not imbalance one of the 108 matchups.
• Presenting the map to the intense scrutiny of thousands of skilled players, knowing that no one outside of a handfull will ever play your map if it is imbalanced.
• Rinse and repeat.

Strategies are constantly evolving; people are finding better counters to strategies that used to be very strong, and you as a map maker, in addition to all of that, have to follow the new and upcoming strategies.

Exactly, that was my point

I favor the little kids here.

Consider this:

Microsoft vs Linux.

Paid people vs Dedicated Developers.

Bad programs vs Good programs.

I don't see how them being on the "professional" level has anything to do with.. anything. A dedicated programmer, while not "professional" can still make something better than a professional. The same applies to us map makers. We are making better maps than blizzard.

A great flaw in your arguement:

You say "professional" mappers make imbalanced maps.
Then you say the smallest inbalance will be taken advantage of.

I can conclude, with these two facts, that there are almost no (if not already) balanced maps. However, this would mean that the advantage will always be used. However, I see many many melee maps which I consider to be extremely balanced; therefore, the "smallest imbalance" simply means "rigged terrain". This doesn't exist and your logic is broken.

Bullshit.

Blizzard could not have consistently made good maps; they had no idea what the game would turn out like. They tried several different things, one of them being Lost Temple, which is the most played map.

Also, I am speechless in you saying that the little UMS kids are more skilled than the highly scrutinized proffesionals. There is no reason whatsoever to think that.

And your insult of Microsoft shows that you are completely ignorant; take a spin with the .NET Framework, and tell me it isn't the safest, easiet to develop for architecture you have ever seen.

Lol, this is funny, I guess I'll have to explain it to you too, since you dont get the point. I was requoting you the same way, cause you talked down onto me by questioning my intelligence on a subject only because of the way I delivered it via text. You still havn't directly responded to my point. You just questioned my intelligence on it, that's all.




No, but I do have a quote of you telling me:

Either you're supporting arrogance or you're supporting me.




As for the whole arguing thing, you basically proved my entire point right there. You basically agreed just with me. Cause the word Argue, and the word Debate, are basically the same exact thing. Just debate sounds more professional, although it's dictionary term can be describe as a fight or quarell. And we all know how proffesional quarells can be. So anyways, here is the definition of the word Argue:

1. To put forth reasons for or against; debate: “It is time to stop arguing tax-rate reductions and to enact them” (Paul Craig Roberts).
2. To attempt to prove by reasoning; maintain or contend: The speaker argued that more immigrants should be admitted to the country.
3. To give evidence of; indicate: “Similarities cannot always be used to argue descent” (Isaac Asimov).
4. To persuade or influence (another), as by presenting reasons: argued the clerk into lowering the price.



No, it's there to point out that triggers are more than just if X then Y. It's also, if X is A B and C, AND if Z is D E and F, then P M and S.

And if P is D E, and G, then Q F C L O and H.

And that's simple stuff. Some of it gets a lot more complicated than that. So don't say it's just if X then Y. Cause it seems like either your acting like there's only 1 condition and action, or if you left the amount of conditions and actions as variables.

And BTW hate, I think both sides can agree on this part right here: You're being an asshole for seriously calling people ignorant. Maybe you yourself is ignorant. just because some one doesn't agree with you on something, doesn't mean they're ignorant, ok mr arrogance of the year winner?

That's why I want to get rid of cussing. Because people use it at times when it's not needed. Actually, this forum should never have such an occurance. Therefore, I find your post offensive already and respect is lost. Also, I don't care if you don't care.


Go look at their map, "Firing Lane". Tell me you can understand it thoroughly by going through it once. If you can do that, then I will grant that you are an ok map maker. Otherwise, you don't know anything about ums.


Do you like the word scrutinized? It seems so overused. Anyway, I can think that way, because it's true. The fact is, dedicated people work much more effecient than paid people. I've already given my proof, it's time for you to accept it.


I hate microsoft. I hate almost everything they've ever made. Nothing they make compares to the open source community, which you obviously have no idea what it is.

[name a word that is better than scrutinized, and I'll use that, your Highness]




So this is why you are being so irrational! I knew the chance that I was talking to someone with down-syndrom was slim, and I'm glad there is another explaination.


Why do you hate Microsoft? If you knew anything about software development, you should practically be masterbating to them. They have done more for developers then any other organization. In addition, their products are the least expensive route for people who feel intimidated by computers.

If you think the open-source-zealots on the Linux side are good, you would fall in love with how Microsoft treats developers. They provide a mind boggling amount of free resources (MSDN). They released their highly-optimized compilers for free, and are constantly improving their excellent .NET Framework. If you try it and don't like it, then the only reason you have for hating Microsoft is because you hate capitalism.

edit: typo

The fact remains that the open source community still creates better products, and it's by far cheaper (obviously).