Staredit Network

Theres a way around everything. Think outside the box.

Why would he face a ban moose.I explicitly remember rules where if you do something over bnet/net it was your right, so long as you did not do it on SEN. I remember no release of OSMAP on sen. That is going too far with your admin rights, no matter what some of these nutcases think. BTW the person who said we are punishing for confesions is 100% right. Plus he has all the right in the world to release a program that undo's his other program. Unless one of you people payed for uberation/proedit I don't want to hear a peep from you.

I think its only right for Legacy to create a protection against OSMAP.

He said about how he wanted everybody to share the knowledge so we can all learn and get better... i however disagree. I make my maps in my own time... i then release them protected so people can't edit it how they want or steal my name on the map, I have never said that i wouldn't help anybody with map making, i even help my enemies with map making.

All OSMAP did, was go against many of the map making communities will, of handing over their maps, and is not always being used to learn from.

Kasmir, Moose has every right to ban every single person from the site right now. The forum isn't a government owned forum, thus allowing Moose/IP to do whatever is in their will so long as it doesn't violate US laws.

Well when that mapmaking community can make its own programs and honor the "intellectual rights" of LW with his Uberation and OSMAP. It is his right, even in the world of project development, to modify any of his programs as he wishes. So long as he clearly states the function and purpose of the program.

Plus as I said earlier, there is no rule for this, his actions took place not on SEN, only his confession happened here. There is no basis for a demotion of any sort of punishment.

Had LW not revealed himself he would still be as he was before.

Moose, you seem to like metaphors, so here's one:

You're speeding down the highway, cruise control on, sipping your coffee(or whatever you prefer) when suddenly someone hops infront of your vehicle, you panic, even though they're a good 20 feet away, your only instinct is to slam on the brakes, which you do. Unfortuneatly, you can't stop in time. You worry so much that you drive away. After driving for 10 minutes, you realize you should've tried to help, but the guy is already in critical condition, and nearly dead. You drive back, and call the police, and an ambulance. They arrive, and tell you he's dead. The story gets published in the newspaper, and people say: "well why didn't he just steer around the guy?".

Of course, this is sped up about a billion times. But the point is, he was so busy trying to stop and save the guy (i.e. make a program that allows users to open other's maps) he didn't even think of steering around him (make a "map viewer"). He then drove away, thinking he'd be in trouble, (like LW didn't say he made OSMAP), then realized that it would be worse if he didn't confess.

The point of the point is that he was so preoccupied that he didn't think it through.

The other problem with OSMAP being banned on SEN is that none of the mappers are being helped with it, it's just the brats who don't make maps

Um what the hell?

Demoting LegacyWeapon here on SEN wasn't necessary. All he did was make the program away from SEN, not once did he do something reprehensible here on SEN. People can do whatever the hell they want away from SEN. You're only hurting SEN by doing irresponsible things like firing one of our best moderators whose contributed vastly to this site and I'll be damned to see this site slowly decay because of such unjustified actions. I have already lost much respect for many of you people.


Now as far as dealing with OSMAP and map unprotection in general, I hold no opinion as of the moment.

Millenium he never posted it, but that doesn't mean he didn't try to make it public elsewhere, or that he was respecting mappers wishes by making it at all. By association, releasing it publicily meant that mappers on this site are just as affected as they are everywhere else. He had no right to make that kind of call on his own.

Good point, millenium

we shouldn't worry about LW, he has done great things for this community, yoshi supported him, and ended up leaving after being flamed by so many members.

My veiws on the whole protection thing have changed in these last few days. I used to be the one who didnt want anyone stealing my maps so i went out of my way to protect them. (not that anyone whould wanna steal em) Now i see protecting as a hassle when you find something wrong in your protected map you have to open your back-up file and start from there. Its just a hassle.

And sence osmap is out there, why protect maps? and really, as long as you put it on the download data base of staredit first, why does it matter if some one steals it? The only ones we are trying to impress by our skills are those of us at staredit.

MA, we are not just a forum about mapmaking. We are mapmaking. And anything against mapmaking or in this case protection is against us.

As egotistical as that may sound, that's basically true. There's a few scattered forums like Blizzforums, Warboards, etc., but ultimately what's left of UMS mapping primarily resides here. And thus, as do I.


Maybe once Blizzard pays more attention to SC finally that might change. For now, I'd suggest working with it instead of beating it down because of its flaws. Inflicting unprotection is not improving matters, frankly.

Thats total B/S. Are you actually saying he should be punished on SEN for releasing his own program to other people because it would affect people here? Are you saying that when becoming a SEN your activities in the entire SC community have to change to abide by SEN regulations? Jesus christ. Next you'll be telling me I will be banned if I join any other forums, or demoted for releasing my map on a diffrent site and not SEN because it will affect the people here if lots of people want the map and go to a diffrent site for download, How dare I make that call! As for "respecting mappers wishes", I don't think you're giving him any respect for his decision, not that it matters. Demoting him is like blaming bullet makers for killing people. Guns don't kill people, People kill people. Unprotectors don't steal maps, Ass holes steal maps. Another thing is no one recognizes the "lawful" (for lack of a better word) use of this tool. Maybe I don't want a "map viewer". What if I wanna add something to a map and show my buds how cool the map would be with an added feature while still giving credit to the original owner? Do you consider that stealing? You cannot retain the rights that you don't actually have in the first place when you release a map on BNet. It may not be right, and map stealing should always be punished on SEN and anywhere else, but it's not illegal or some type of infringment on your "rights as a map maker". Just because yall think the tool will most likely be used for evil doesn't eliminate potential use for education or legal map alterations that still give credit to creators. It's a double edge sword but the only people who should be punished or demoted or banned are those who use it for map stealing, you may not agree with people being able to alter a map and still give credit to the original owner, but that's just your opinion that you have 100% ownership forever and that no one can ever change your map at all. Even if the moderators don't think alterations with credit are right doesn't make it any less of an opinion and the tool any less legal.

Ok lemme get this straight. So legacy was the creator of all OSMAP's? And he just told us and no one knew?

And just decided to tell us now. Wow. Alot has been taken in today.

JoJo, that bullet maker argument was so stupid. That's like a country giving a bunch of religious extremists massive weapons supplies and that country not being blamed for the deaths that those weapons make.

He's being punished at SEN because of how his integrity has been shot. That and since OSMAP is a tool that hurts most of SEN members, it is SEN related.

Before I continue, let me tell you guys where I stand:

I do not support OSMAP. Two reasons: first it would fall into abusive hands. Secondly and more importantly, it really does no good. Think about it:

1) You open up this decently simple to make map. The triggers and stuff are easy to read and soon enough you know exactly how the map works. However, it's normally easy stuff and it does no good for your map making knowledge. You've gained nothing out of looking into that map.

You lose.

2) You open up this really really complex map that has cool concepts worthy of looking into, like RUSH for instance. The triggers are massive in number, the map is really complex. And especially since the map protections come with compression, all the strings will be reset, thus making it extremely difficult to read locations and switches. It's going to take an almost impossible effort to understand everything. You're going to waste countless hours before fully understanding how things work. You'd probably give up.

You lose.


So you see it's pretty much a lose lose sitation if you really want to take advantage of OSMAP.

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I am however against taking any actions against LW. That's what I call going too far. LegacyWeapon was relieved of his position as a global moderator. Now what do Global Moderators do? They moderate the website; they make sure people are intact and follow the rules. They can even help with things like our Databases or even coding. Breaking any of those rules would get them fired. Now tell me, which one of those rules for being a moderator did he break? Making OSMAP has nothing to do with his job as a Global Moderator; firing him for that reason is like firing a Wal-Mart worker just because he likes shopping at K-mart.
Ok so if you truly want to fall for that post hoc fallacy in which you say that by making OSMAP you are therefore against SEN/map making/protection, then the only logical thing to do is to ban him. But if he's allowed to stay, might as well let him stay and continue to benefit this site. Let's take full advantage of our resources.

Except now we'd recycle the debate of how much it's hurting people. Truthfully, not much, but that doesn't mean map stealing hasn't been a problem for many people in the past, nor could it potentially rear up again in the future.


And yeah JoJo, what if you wanted to add something to a map that was explicitely protected by its author? How dare you have less right to tamper with the map than it's creator, right?

So devilesk gets banned for spreading OSMAP but when Legacy does it its all ok.

You're all hypocrites.

I am actually curious as to where this ridiculous rumour came from.

OSMAP does not read map data the way Starcraft does. Period. I have glanced at the source, and I actually believe some if it is mine if I recall (recycled from Uberation 3).

Reading data like Starcraft is simply not feasible in a program that is coded in Visual Basic. You would have to reference storm.dll and.. OSMAP doesn't reference this!

I fail to see why LegacyWeapon got suspended for anything. According to this website's rules, he didn't do anything wrong.

But people work hard on there maps. They dont want it to get rigged by some second class clown who wears briefs and sniff his own poo.

Devilesk got banned for being an outright arsehole. LegacyWeapon got punished because he betrayed some measure of our trust. Not explicitely through his position, but more generally against the community in general.


Millenium, I don't know about demodding him outright either, but frankly I think he should have known something like that might happen. If he had wanted to make the conversion to unprotection or open source or whatever, he should have tried to do it with a process that didn't involve undermining the entire map making community (which spans more than just SEN, you know). Sure, we're dealing with the issue now, which I think achieves that end, but if we're gonna let the ends justify the means here then we're basically living in an anarchy.

And frankly, I don't want to live in an anarchy.



*sigh* I'd be willing to forget the issue personally if he did something to help rectify his actions, though. Maybe not explicitely a re-protector, since that's a little too late for many existing maps already out there. I don't know what exactly... maybe along the lines of helping establish a better DB to associate authors rightfully with their maps or something.

Please realize that I'm not against Open Source here, but I can afford not to be because of my position. Many mappers can't make that claim, like if they were to have their maps stolen they wouldn't have the same voice and abiility I would to convince others they made it, for instance.

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Now to settle this once and for all: Why is stealing bad, especially if it makes the map better? Because now you have one less map maker to make those maps, after they get pissed off and leave. That's why.

Mindarchon, read. This will be justification for OSMAP. Also make a new protector

I think Moose made a wise and just decision.

LW isn't suspended, what are you guys talking about?

Also...

It would take me less than 10 minutes to browse through the strings of a map, find ones listing the author, change them, then start rehosting the map. I agree that its usefulness for seeing into maps is still limited, though.


And for the record, I never protected Rush.