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Staredit Network -> Lite Discussion -> Time travel paradox
Report, edit, etc...Posted by xmrxsiegecopx on 2006-11-10 at 12:37:30
QUOTE(Lithium @ Nov 10 2006, 10:06 AM)
Lets make this even better. What if you met you from 15 minutes beyond?
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You can't meet your future self on your -- The future self has to come to you. By going into the future for 15 minutes, you actually disappear for that 15 minutes, making your future self non-existent (Although you could still go back 15 minutes into the past and meet your 15 minute younger counterpart, but if this happened, your future gets changed entirely than if your future self never went into your timeline).

If I did meet 15 minute older self, I would have gained a new SC buddy. tongue.gif
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mp)7-7 on 2006-11-10 at 12:41:35
I agree because you would be looking for someone that is currently looking into the future 15 minutes. Which I believe this owuld mean that it would be a never ending 15 minutes right. Like if you went ahead 15 minutes, to see yourself the other would be looking 15 minutes ahead. Because it is your own type of 'timeline' as you call it.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Oo.Zero.oO on 2006-11-10 at 12:47:36
If time travel is even possible you could meet your future self because were all pass selves. The future self goes on infinitaly.

It is still snowing.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by FatalException on 2006-11-10 at 13:29:49
QUOTE(Oo.Zero.oO @ Nov 10 2006, 09:47 AM)
It is still snowing.
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Ummm.... What does that have to do with time-travel? Anyways, the way I see it is that if you went fifteen minutes into the future, your future self would be trying to meet itself from fifteen minutes into the future, and that future self would be trying to meet itself from fifteen minutes into the future, and so on. It's a very long and sort of confusing chain, so with the way I think of it, you'd never be able to meet your future self. Hmmm, maybe this should just be a thread for random time travel paradoxes that people come up with... Yeah, that'll work!

EDIT: Oh wait, Mp)7-7 already said what I thought about it... D'oh!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Loser_Musician on 2006-11-10 at 14:01:48
QUOTE(Mp)7-7 @ Nov 10 2006, 01:30 AM)
I dont think you are right.  If you are it is very hard to think of it this way. But as I dont think that you can actually physically bring you yourelf to a different time in the world.
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Exactly. The math involved behind travelling into the past is so extreme, that even god it's self may not even be able to do it.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mp)7-7 on 2006-11-10 at 14:53:38
QUOTE(FatalException @ Nov 10 2006, 01:29 PM)
Ummm.... What does that have to do with time-travel? Anyways, the way I see it is that if you went fifteen minutes into the future, your future self would be trying to meet itself from fifteen minutes into the future, and that future self would be trying to meet itself from fifteen minutes into the future, and so on. It's a very long and sort of confusing chain, so with the way I think of it, you'd never be able to meet your future self. Hmmm, maybe this should just be a thread for random time travel paradoxes that people come up with... Yeah, that'll work!

EDIT: Oh wait, Mp)7-7 already said what I thought about it... D'oh!
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Thats funny that someone thought of that too, because even when I thought this, I wasnt planning on writing it because it even seemed wierd to me. But then I thought, and it makes a little sence as bizarre as it is.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Oo.Zero.oO on 2006-11-10 at 14:54:30
It's been proven that faster your moving the slower time goes.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mp)7-7 on 2006-11-10 at 14:58:08
QUOTE(Oo.Zero.oO @ Nov 10 2006, 02:54 PM)
It's been proven that faster your moving the slower time goes.
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Example?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by JaFF on 2006-11-10 at 15:21:22
TO all those who don't think that time travelling is possible:

What about the "nuclear clock on a plane" experiment?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mp)7-7 on 2006-11-10 at 15:34:37
QUOTE(Jammed @ Nov 10 2006, 03:21 PM)
TO all those who don't think that time travelling is possible:

What about the "nuclear clock on a plane" experiment?
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I have never heard of this experiment.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by JaFF on 2006-11-10 at 15:40:58
They took a nuclear clock, and put in on a plane. The plane was flying in the air for quite some time. As we all know, the faster you move, the slower the time flows for you. So the nuclear clock that was on the plane was behind the other nuclear clock that was on the ground after it was returned to the ground.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mp)7-7 on 2006-11-10 at 16:52:17
So what your saying is that a pilot ages faster than a normal person that only rides a plane two to three times a year. I dont know what a nuclear clock is.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by spinesheath on 2006-11-10 at 17:19:23
About the nuclear clocks:
This was an experiment to prove Einstein's theory of time dilation.

I'll keep it simple, check out "time dilation" on wikipedia or whatever...

The faster an objet moves relative to an observer, the slower time passes FOR THIS object IN THE VIEW of the observer. If you are moving at high speed, you don't feel any difference, because you are not moving at all relative to yourself.

But this does only SLOW DOWN time, and will eventually stop it (see photons), but never turn the flow of time.

Gravitation does also slow down time (actually it's pretty much the same thing), which is why a black hole seems not to collapse anyfurther out of our view, while in fact only time is not flowing for that black hole out of our view.

On topic: What would happen if you killed any of your ancestors?
Well, we only are a set of atoms. If we go back in time, we are a set of atoms in that time (don't ask me where these atoms should come from all of a sudden, time travel is impossible...). I could kill anyone in that time; what should affect my atoms to vanish?

I have another question, much nicer: The universe expands; this means that there is an end to it (which we can't reach because it expands with the speed of light). But what's outside the universe?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Oo.Zero.oO on 2006-11-10 at 18:29:20
The time going slower as you go on was the nuclear clock on a plane expirement. I think they tested this more than once, but a nuclear clock doesnt really go off. The person that was flying can always say im .0000001 second younger than my actual date. You have to be going extremely fast for you to actually slow down enough to go into the future.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by FatalException on 2006-11-10 at 18:29:37
Could we get a link to some sources (time dilation experiments)? This sounds interesting. To spinesheath: Outside the universe is another universe, but so far away that we would never reach it, even if we were constantly on the edge of the universe. The stuff that fills the area between is dark matter. Yay for my weird theories with no research done to prove them. smile.gif
Report, edit, etc...Posted by green_meklar on 2006-11-10 at 20:22:49
QUOTE
It's been proven that faster your moving the slower time goes.

Yes. However, the point of zero time is at the speed of light, which is unattainable for objects with rest mass (such as people and people's spaceships). So this isn't a viable way of getting back in time (although it can help getting forward, provided you don't mind traversing the interim). For going back in time, you'd have more luck trying wormholes and quantum physics.
QUOTE
So what your saying is that a pilot ages faster than a normal person that only rides a plane two to three times a year. I dont know what a nuclear clock is.

The pilot ages slower than the person on the ground. This is provided the Earth is at rest, of course; as it is the pilot could actually be slowing himself down by flying west and gaining on the stationary person.

An atomic clock is a clock that records time based on the innate resonance frequency of an atom. The most commonly used element is cesium.
QUOTE
To spinesheath: Outside the universe is another universe, but so far away that we would never reach it, even if we were constantly on the edge of the universe. The stuff that fills the area between is dark matter. Yay for my weird theories with no research done to prove them.

Yes, yay for them. Unfortunately, our universe contains all the three-dimensional space we know. To get to another universe, presumably you would have to get out of our plane of space somehow. Think of it in terms of a terran civilian who is trapped within his StarCraft game. He can walk anywhere on the map but he won't get into another game. You would need some extra programming to get him from one universe to another (yes, a StarCraft game is a miniature simulated universe).
Report, edit, etc...Posted by FatalException on 2006-11-10 at 21:44:44
QUOTE(green_meklar @ Nov 10 2006, 05:22 PM)
Think of it in terms of a terran civilian who is trapped within his StarCraft game. He can walk anywhere on the map but he won't get into another game. You would need some extra programming to get him from one universe to another (yes, a StarCraft game is a miniature simulated universe).
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Nice example. I still want a source of information regarding the experiments done with the plane and nuclear clocks, though.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by spinesheath on 2006-11-11 at 07:40:28
As I already mentioned, look it up in wikipedia. It's not really a reliable source, but for your purposes, which are not really scientific, it's good enough wink.gif You'll find all the links to connected topics there.

Dark Matter is not necessarily only outside our universe. We can't tell what is outside, but at least we know that there is dark matter INSIDE our universe. That's how it is defined; some sort of matter that we cannot detect except for its gravitational effects yet but that exists in our universe.

Let's be precise: The pilot slows himself down OUT OF THE VIEW OF OTHERS. And it's terribly complicated to prove that the pilot is the one that is younger when he meets his twin brother after his flight, and not his twin brother, when his twin brother was moving relative to the pilot just as well...
Keep in mind: Movement is relative! When I am moving, but look at me relative to myself, I am not moving. I could also say that the earth is turning below me when I am walking...

Wormholes are - from what I read so far - more of a connection of places that are far away, caused by deformation of space (dunno how it is actually called in English, the thing caused by gravity). But that's nothing but a shaky theory wink.gif
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mp)7-7 on 2006-11-11 at 11:19:51
Does this change in time happen enough for if someone did an experiment and stayed on planes for like a whole year just going on planes everyday only stopping to eat actual meals. Would they become noticely younger or older?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by green_meklar on 2006-11-11 at 11:51:09
QUOTE
Wormholes are - from what I read so far - more of a connection of places that are far away, caused by deformation of space (dunno how it is actually called in English, the thing caused by gravity).

That is correct. It is usually called 'curving' or 'warping' of space. And to make it into a time machine, you build a very massive spaceship (or use a spaceship to tow a very massive object, pretty much the same thing in practice) and move it close to the wormhole, then fly around the other end of the wormhole. According to certain interpretations of relativity and the way wormholes work, the resulting twisted wormhole would allow you to go back in time, however you would not be able to go back any farther than the time at which the wormhole was made.
QUOTE
Does this change in time happen enough for if someone did an experiment and stayed on planes for like a whole year just going on planes everyday only stopping to eat actual meals. Would they become noticely younger or older?

The relativity equation is 1/((1-((v^2)/(c^2)))^0.5), or, in proper notation:
user posted image
So the rate at which the dilation changes compared to speed is not constant but rather increases as the speed increases.

Now, let's use this calculator to find out whether your idea would work. We'll assume the plane moves at 900 KPH, which is about cruising speed for many commercial airliners, and the person on the ground is at rest. And we'll assume that the person flying in the airplane flies 24/7 for a whole year. Plug in 900 KPH and you get a dilation of 1.0000000000003477. The amount of a year less the person will age is therefore 1/1.0000000000003477, so the person ages about one hundred thousandth of a second less. This scales directly with the amount of time spent in the airplane, so if you lived for 90 years you would still age only a thousandth of a second less than the person on the ground. If we assume that five years' age difference is necessary to make a noticeable change, then by the time you got off the plane, you would have been on it for about 14380212827154 years, or about 1000 times the age of the Universe.

Good luck on marketing your new anti-aging treatment! XD
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mp)7-7 on 2006-11-11 at 11:57:53
Wow, then why is this such a big deal that people notice tht your age changes a little while flying if it only changes by that much?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Chronophobia on 2006-11-11 at 12:04:50
QUOTE(Mp)7-7 @ Nov 11 2006, 10:57 AM)
Wow, then why is this such a big deal that people notice tht your age changes a little while flying if it only changes by that much?
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Because it's interesting that time flows slower in high speed than if it is still.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by JordanN_3335 on 2006-11-11 at 12:56:51
I remember there was an Albert Einstein theory to this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel

On this show it said that if 2 kids that are exactly the same age of Ten and one of them goes into a Space shuttle that can travel at the speed of light and the other stays on earth if the kid in the shuttle goes around the earth I think it was 100 times when he comes back to earth he would be 14 and the other one would be 72! But I personally don't see how a person can go back in time because that would require doing the same thing but backwards.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mp)7-7 on 2006-11-11 at 13:14:55
If you traveled the speed of ligt and went around the world 100 times, this would only take seconds to go around the world that many times, how would the other kid gain 62 years?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DT_Battlekruser on 2006-11-11 at 13:30:04
QUOTE
And we'll assume that the person flying in the airplane flies 24/7 for a whole year. Plug in 900 KPH and you get a dilation of 1.0000000000003477. The amount of a year less the person will age is therefore 1/1.0000000000003477, so the person ages about one hundred thousandth of a second less.


This has been scientifically testing by placing an atomic clock on a plane and sending it once around the world on approximately one day. At your given cruising speed, the predicted difference of about 3.477 x 10[sup]-13[/sup] days = 30.04 ns was measured in the clocks.

QUOTE
If you traveled the speed of ligt and went around the world 100 times, this would only take seconds to go around the world that many times, how would the other kid gain 62 years?


You cannot travel anywhere "at the speed of light". If a human was capable of going a very high speed, 0.9999c, for example, or 299,762,478.8 meters per second, and traveled around the world (at the equator) 100 times, the following would happen:

Traveling at 299,762,478.8 m/s, it would take 40,075,160 m / 299,762,478.8 m/s = 133.690 ms, relative to a stationary observer, to travel the distance.

At such a velocity, the dilation factor of time is equal to 70.712445.

Therefore, while to a stationary Earth observer, it took the person 133.690 ms to go around the Earth times, to the pilot of the near-light speed craft, only 1.891 ms will have elapsed.

This has been, of course, neglecting air resistance.

Now, as long as the distance is kept constant, than as v approaches c, the time experienced by the pilot will go to zero, but the time relative to an Earth observer will also shrink, since the ship is moving faster.
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