Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-02-05 at 18:07:42
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Ok, so you concede that website is null and void. You made that point more verbose than necessary.
The first page that link brings you to really doesnt have arguments but it contains many links to different arguments.
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MA, as every psuedoscientist knows and takes advantage of, it takes more time to debunk dubious arguments than to make one up. Links and sources are supposed to support your argument, not be your entire argument itself. [/
I've already stated my arguments millions of times in other threads. Those links aren't suppose to be a new argument but rather to corroborate my original arguments. Everytime people ask "Why do you believe in God?" When i made this thread, i wasn't starting up an argument but rather just continuing my previous one.
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You however, do what many of us call "link dropping," where a fundie will drop a link and expect the non-believers to actually debunk everything it in.
I dont. I'm not coercing you guys to refute everything in it.
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99% of the time, if some point is debunked, he won't bother defending it, but simply find another dubious website that slips past his balony detector and throw it at the rebuttal. Also 99% of the time, he hasn't even read the link himself and expects others to refute it.
I have read all 3 links. And again, not coercing you guys to refute everything in it. Only if you guys openly say "I believe that stuff is bs" and nothing else then would i be tempted to.
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With that said, I hope you're not one of those types. MA, I want you to pick three arguments that you think are the strongest for your case, and Cheeze(if he's still here) will examine those in detail. Once those three are dismantled, you can decide for yourself how well those other arguments hold up.
(see bottom of post)
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And why don't you write a book with the overwhelming evidence God exist and try to get it peer reviewed?
That would be the Bible... If i had to write my own book, it would be
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Because you don't have a balony detector.
Oh, so indirectly you could be saying that those pages i posted could be nothing but pure nonesense? Well, if you believe so, i want to know why.
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(Picture: The irony is strong with this one)
If you've got something to say, say it. I'd never listen to anything DarthVader says...
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The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of this article in your hand. Your brain registers emotional responses, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.
The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.8 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information...can we say mere chance brought about such an astounding organ?
When NASA launches a shuttle mission, it is assumed a monkey didn't write the plan, but intelligent and knowledgeable minds. How does one explain the existence of the human brain? Only a mind more intelligent and knowledgeable than humanity could have created the human brain.
The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.8 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information...can we say mere chance brought about such an astounding organ?
When NASA launches a shuttle mission, it is assumed a monkey didn't write the plan, but intelligent and knowledgeable minds. How does one explain the existence of the human brain? Only a mind more intelligent and knowledgeable than humanity could have created the human brain.
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Does God exist? Mere "chance" is not an adequate explanation of creation.
Imagine looking at Mount Rushmore, in which the likenesses of Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt are carved. Could you ever believe that it came about by chance? Given infinite time, wind, rain and chance, it is still hard to believe something like that, tied to history, was randomly formed in the side of a mountain. Common sense tells us that people planned and skillfully carved those figures.
This article only touches on a few amazing aspects of our world: the Earth's position to the sun, some properties of water, one organ in the human body. Could any of these have come about by chance?
The distinguished astronomer Sir Frederick Hoyle showed how amino acids randomly coming together in a human cell is mathematically absurd. Sir Hoyle illustrated the weakness of "chance" with the following analogy. "What are the chances that a tornado might blow through a junkyard containing all the parts of a 747, accidentally assemble them into a plane, and leave it ready for take-off? The possibilities are so small as to be negligible even if a tornado were to blow through enough junkyards to fill the whole universe!"9
When one considers the intricacies of our life and universe, it is reasonable to think that an intelligent, loving Creator provided for everything we need for life. The Bible describes God as the author and sustainer of life.
Imagine looking at Mount Rushmore, in which the likenesses of Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt are carved. Could you ever believe that it came about by chance? Given infinite time, wind, rain and chance, it is still hard to believe something like that, tied to history, was randomly formed in the side of a mountain. Common sense tells us that people planned and skillfully carved those figures.
This article only touches on a few amazing aspects of our world: the Earth's position to the sun, some properties of water, one organ in the human body. Could any of these have come about by chance?
The distinguished astronomer Sir Frederick Hoyle showed how amino acids randomly coming together in a human cell is mathematically absurd. Sir Hoyle illustrated the weakness of "chance" with the following analogy. "What are the chances that a tornado might blow through a junkyard containing all the parts of a 747, accidentally assemble them into a plane, and leave it ready for take-off? The possibilities are so small as to be negligible even if a tornado were to blow through enough junkyards to fill the whole universe!"9
When one considers the intricacies of our life and universe, it is reasonable to think that an intelligent, loving Creator provided for everything we need for life. The Bible describes God as the author and sustainer of life.
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Does God exist? Humankind's inherent sense of right and wrong cannot be biologically explained.
There arises in all of us, of any culture, universal feelings of right and wrong. Even a thief gets upset and feels wronged when someone steals from him. If someone violently grabs a child from a family and rapes that child, there is an anger and revulsion and a rage to confront that act as evil, regardless of the culture. Where did we get this sense of wrongness? How do we explain a universal law in the conscience of all people that says murder for fun is wrong?
And in areas like courage, dying for a cause, love, dignity, duty and compassion, where did these come from? If people are merely products of physical evolution, "survival of the fittest," why do we sacrifice for each other? Where did we get this inner sense of right and wrong? Our conscience can best be explained by a loving Creator who cares about the decisions and harmony of humanity.
There arises in all of us, of any culture, universal feelings of right and wrong. Even a thief gets upset and feels wronged when someone steals from him. If someone violently grabs a child from a family and rapes that child, there is an anger and revulsion and a rage to confront that act as evil, regardless of the culture. Where did we get this sense of wrongness? How do we explain a universal law in the conscience of all people that says murder for fun is wrong?
And in areas like courage, dying for a cause, love, dignity, duty and compassion, where did these come from? If people are merely products of physical evolution, "survival of the fittest," why do we sacrifice for each other? Where did we get this inner sense of right and wrong? Our conscience can best be explained by a loving Creator who cares about the decisions and harmony of humanity.
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Does God exist? God not only has revealed Himself in what can be observed in nature, and in human life, but He has even more specifically shown Himself in the Bible.
God's thoughts, personality, and attitudes can only be known if God chooses to reveal them. All else would be human speculation. We are at a loss if God does not wish to be known. But God wants us to know Him and has told us in the Bible all we need to know about His character and how to relate to Him. This makes the reliability of the Bible an important consideration.
Archaeological findings continue to confirm rather than refute the accuracy of the Bible. For example, an archeological find in northern Israel in August 1993 confirmed the existence of King David, author of many of the Psalms in the Bible.10 The Dead Sea Scrolls and other archaeological discoveries continue to substantiate the historical accuracy of the Bible.
The Bible was written over a 1500-year span, by 40 different authors, in different locations and on separate continents, written in three different languages, covering diverse subject matters at different points in history.11 Yet there is an astounding consistency in its message. Throughout the entire Bible the same message appears:
God created the world we live in, and created us specifically to have a relationship with Him.
He deeply loves us.
We have sinned and are under God's judgment, in need of His forgiveness.
God provided a way for our sins to be forgiven.
He asks us to receive His forgiveness and have a relationship with Him that will last eternally.
Along with this central script, the Bible specifically reveals God's character. Psalm 145 is a typical summary of God's personality, thoughts and feelings toward us. If you want to know God, here He is.
God's thoughts, personality, and attitudes can only be known if God chooses to reveal them. All else would be human speculation. We are at a loss if God does not wish to be known. But God wants us to know Him and has told us in the Bible all we need to know about His character and how to relate to Him. This makes the reliability of the Bible an important consideration.
Archaeological findings continue to confirm rather than refute the accuracy of the Bible. For example, an archeological find in northern Israel in August 1993 confirmed the existence of King David, author of many of the Psalms in the Bible.10 The Dead Sea Scrolls and other archaeological discoveries continue to substantiate the historical accuracy of the Bible.
The Bible was written over a 1500-year span, by 40 different authors, in different locations and on separate continents, written in three different languages, covering diverse subject matters at different points in history.11 Yet there is an astounding consistency in its message. Throughout the entire Bible the same message appears:
God created the world we live in, and created us specifically to have a relationship with Him.
He deeply loves us.
We have sinned and are under God's judgment, in need of His forgiveness.
God provided a way for our sins to be forgiven.
He asks us to receive His forgiveness and have a relationship with Him that will last eternally.
Along with this central script, the Bible specifically reveals God's character. Psalm 145 is a typical summary of God's personality, thoughts and feelings toward us. If you want to know God, here He is.
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What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because He constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.14
I couldn't decide which 3 of those 5 are the best.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by CheeZe on 2005-02-05 at 18:58:07
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The first page that link brings you to really doesnt have arguments but it contains many links to different arguments.
Free Tip: Next time, give us those links instead of a link that leads to links. Actually, it's better if you don't give any links (unless it's the source) and type the stuff in your own way. That way, you would understand what they're saying more and be able to recongnize obvious fallacies.
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I dont. I'm not coercing you guys to refute everything in it.
What's with the links?
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That would be the Bible... If i had to write my own book, it would be
Get it peer-reviewed from scientists all over the world. Why scientists? Well, good experiments and "proofs" are the ones that can be done over and over again. I want to see some dead people that rise from their grave. Now that would be cool.
On to your "best arguements" ...
#1. Complexity does not equal impossible. Since much is not known about the brain, I'll just say that mutation allowed the brain to "grow" stronger and more powerful.
Of course, that's not a very strong arguement either, so I'll just ask you a question. If god is so perfect, why does the left side of the brain control the right side of the body, and vice versa?
Evolution can explain it perfectly fine: Because it worked and doesn't need changing. It's doesn't make sense, but it works.
#2. I already explained this. As time reaches infinite, the chance of anything (assuming it is over 0%) becomes 100%. Therefore, anything that has a chance of happening, given time, will happen. This arguement isn't very strong since it actually somewhat supports what I beleive in.
#3. The right and wrong are teachings by human through experience and enviroment.
We assume rape is wrong because it goes against the will of one person, which we must all respect. This only leads back to the rights of people, which was something that was developed by humans from various revolutions back in those days.
Love is another thing; love does not show survival of the fittest simply because, that's not what it is. You may want to save someone because of love, but can you save them from a fatal disease with no cure? No matter how much you love someone, they are still unable to be treated and they will be dead. Survival of the fittest removed them from the game. They aren't "worthy" of going on in life even if you did love them.
Emotions (such as Love), however, are phenomenons that happen in many different animals. They cannot be explained to why, but they can be explained in how. If someone scared you, the result can be scared, then quickly turning into anger. The relationship can be connected in all emotions. Sadness could correspond to a loss in life, happiness to a gain.
For the last question in the arguement, the answer is human. Our sense of right and wrong is purely designed based off our enviroment. If you lived in a world where everything is free and plentiful, would you care if someone stole an apple from you? No, you just go out and pick one up again. Of course, in that kind of environment, stealing wouldn't exist, which completley destroys the "created" reaction to stealing.
#4. Your proof is that different authors, who shared the same belief, would write about the samething?! Like, Oh Em Ge! How on earth could people possibly share the same beliefs?!
Seriously, just because it was written by different people with the same messages doesn't mean anything and is not a valid arguement. People have written that the earth was flat thousands of times back in the days, they shared the common view and everything. What's the difference between their belief and your belief?
#5. This arguement is the worst in all five. Many times, I've asked to present proof from outside the bible, because if the bible is so accurate, the evidence should be overwhelming. Where are the evidence for the miralces of such events?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Neiji on 2005-02-05 at 18:58:07
Until you give us proof of why God doesn't exist, everything that people say is opinion, so nobody should be listening to anyone here. Us Christians have a specian kind of opinon, which is faith...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by CheeZe on 2005-02-05 at 19:19:48
So then, you admit you believe in god purely on faith with no evidence?
If you do, there will be no more points for me to argue against you and I wouldn't care either. Anything I say can be accepted or rejected since you rely on faith alone.
If you do, there will be no more points for me to argue against you and I wouldn't care either. Anything I say can be accepted or rejected since you rely on faith alone.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Neiji on 2005-02-06 at 00:05:44
I don't need any evidence. I know God is there and he loves us. That's all I need to know for my faith...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by EzDay281 on 2005-02-06 at 01:31:39
QUOTE(Johnznothere78 @ Feb 5 2005, 04:58 PM)
Until you give us proof of why God doesn't exist, everything that people say is opinion, so nobody should be listening to anyone here. Us Christians have a specian kind of opinon, which is faith...
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And I knoooow that my made up religion is true. Us(being me, me, me, and me) Kelians have a special kind of opinion. Also, if my religion told me to jump off a bridge(and I didn't know it was a bridge), I would jump off. I wouldn't bother finding out WHAT the bridge is, or WHY I'm supposed to jump, I would just do it completely faithfully, so that I may be let into PAradise for my lack of curiosity and care as to whether I can perform the function that God had made me to do, which is to purify the world in His name.
"Let's suppose we throw red, white, and blue confetti (like the little protein molecules in the socalled "premedorial soup") out of an airplane 1,000 feet above your house. Whats the chance its going to form the American flag on your lawn? Not much. Natural laws are going to mix them up. You need more time? Fine. We'll throw them out of an airplane 10,000 feet above your house. Natural laws work upon them and makes the confetti even more disordered."
Okay. So you threw it from up higher. But, you've only given me the results of the first throw, not the next 990,000,000 throws. A quite small number, if you ask me, considering it'll only take a few millenia for a few thousand people to do it, at very most. Now, change that into a few hundred people that create a growing society, and give them about 100,000,000 years instead.
EDIT: Or, you can extend the atmosphere and gravity upto a couple lightyears, remove effects from anything other then this modified Earth, and see if, dropped down a containing tube, the confetti forms a flag on the way down, for atleast a 1/1000 second.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Drj12 on 2005-02-06 at 17:39:13
If there is one reason that Christians dont pursue proof of Gods existance, it is that we believe, without question, that He exsists and He sent his son down to save us.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by CheeZe on 2005-02-06 at 17:53:04
Odd, you guys still have failed to answer my question. You continue to support what I'm asking, but fail to answer.
Do you believe in god only through faith?
Do you believe in god only through faith?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Felagund on 2005-02-06 at 20:16:06
What else can they believe in god with?
I believe it is coming apparent - they simply will not concede the point.
I believe it is coming apparent - they simply will not concede the point.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by cfro7211 on 2005-02-06 at 23:43:42
QUOTE(WoA-Felagund @ Feb 6 2005, 06:16 PM)
What else can they believe in god with?
I believe it is coming apparent - they simply will not concede the point.
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I believe it is coming apparent - they simply will not concede the point.
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i concur. no hope whatsoever.
doesnt mean we're going to back down from our beliefs.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Basan on 2005-02-07 at 13:38:44
Oh, boy... Another one? Can't you possibly leave it alone (belief in God/whatever is named is mostly due to faith)? 
Oh well, my time to barge in arrived... again.
Ummm... I hate to say it but that's a dumb remark.
I posted those sites because they had proof for my reasons for believing in God. If nothing they said was right, why would i even post those links? Cmon use ur common sense. I believe in just about everything they say. Beside, he's the one who wanted to disprove those pages and began the "offense." I think he should actually present something rather than just say "I think all thats stuff is BS" and look like a fool. THEN as a defense, i might present my arguments.
In case you didn't realized already, it's called "burden of proof". You made the claim, now we ask you to prove it (hard-evidences) to possibly be widely accepted.
And just so happens that we debunked the previous claims (over n' over again), so what's the next 'fail-proof' evidence?
The guy in question could putted in a better way but he didn't prob'ly because others did already. Maybe ithis will serve him for future reference.
Heck, I can do a Google search that Satan does exist and get a lot of links. Does it mean that it exists? Does anyone started to ear the X-Files theme comin' on all over the sudden? *Sarcasm*
Get better excuses, will ya? If you can't prove it, why insist?
For this once, I'm beggining to agree with Felagund. If many of you (Theists) can't concede that the lack of evidence makes it impossible for you to prove it exists, why continue?
*Meh*
Oh well, my time to barge in arrived... again.
QUOTE(M.Army)
Ummm... I hate to say it but that's a dumb remark.I posted those sites because they had proof for my reasons for believing in God. If nothing they said was right, why would i even post those links? Cmon use ur common sense. I believe in just about everything they say. Beside, he's the one who wanted to disprove those pages and began the "offense." I think he should actually present something rather than just say "I think all thats stuff is BS" and look like a fool. THEN as a defense, i might present my arguments.
In case you didn't realized already, it's called "burden of proof". You made the claim, now we ask you to prove it (hard-evidences) to possibly be widely accepted.
And just so happens that we debunked the previous claims (over n' over again), so what's the next 'fail-proof' evidence?
The guy in question could putted in a better way but he didn't prob'ly because others did already. Maybe ithis will serve him for future reference.
QUOTE(M.Army)
If you really want proof, go to google search and type in "Does God exist." Plenty of pages will pop up and perhaps your answer will be there.
Heck, I can do a Google search that Satan does exist and get a lot of links. Does it mean that it exists? Does anyone started to ear the X-Files theme comin' on all over the sudden? *Sarcasm*
Get better excuses, will ya? If you can't prove it, why insist?
For this once, I'm beggining to agree with Felagund. If many of you (Theists) can't concede that the lack of evidence makes it impossible for you to prove it exists, why continue?
*Meh*Report, edit, etc...Posted by Felagund on 2005-02-07 at 16:17:02
Ah the sweet wine of victory. Your beliefs have been shattered by the hammer of logic, yet you cling to their shards. It's more saddening than anything, and thus the wine is bittersweet.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by PCFredZ on 2005-02-07 at 17:31:09
What do y'all think of this idea:
The Bible was a piece of historical fiction, that became a best seller.
Example for easier understanding: say the Harry Potter fans got out of hand. Due to some catastrophe, all methods of recording except these books are eliminated from the world. In 2000 years, what do YOU think people will believe to have happened?
The Bible was a piece of historical fiction, that became a best seller.
Example for easier understanding: say the Harry Potter fans got out of hand. Due to some catastrophe, all methods of recording except these books are eliminated from the world. In 2000 years, what do YOU think people will believe to have happened?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Drj12 on 2005-02-07 at 18:37:15
QUOTE(PCFredZ)
The Bible was a piece of historical fiction, that became a best seller.
I beg to differ. The people who wrote the bible witnessed these miracles and then wrote them down. When God came down to earth, people were encouraged to put all of these stories in chronological order and bind them. The bible is not any fiction. If it was then why would Christians worship Him. Also, you have no evidence that that stuff didnt happen, we have a religion.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by CheeZe on 2005-02-07 at 19:20:14
Of course we don't have evidence, how can we possibly prove something that didn't leave behind evidence of it's non-existance?
Of course, it also doesn't leave behind evidence to it's existance (refering to god this time).
Which, once again, goes back to my question, which everyone fails to answer:
Do you believe in god entirely on faith?
If your answer is yes, then, these arguements are pointless, you will never understand science, stop posting.
If your answer is no, then, be a little bit more open minded and think from our perspective. Take into account of everything we say instead of throwing random sites at us full of arguements we have talked about many many times.
Of course, it also doesn't leave behind evidence to it's existance (refering to god this time).
Which, once again, goes back to my question, which everyone fails to answer:
Do you believe in god entirely on faith?
If your answer is yes, then, these arguements are pointless, you will never understand science, stop posting.
If your answer is no, then, be a little bit more open minded and think from our perspective. Take into account of everything we say instead of throwing random sites at us full of arguements we have talked about many many times.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Clokr_ on 2005-02-08 at 14:00:32
First of all I have to say that I dont think that god exists, since cience proves that god doesnt exist, but I cant be 100% sure, so I just dont know it 
Then:
Humans are curious. All the animals are curious, cats, dogs, etc, all of them. As animals, we are curious too and we are intelligent enough to ask ourselves about why the things are like they are. Since our knowledge is limited and the human mind tries to find an explaination for everything, it just gets the "easy" way: "there is a god and it created everything". There. Everything is explained now.
That's why we are here and not on jupiter! The life didnt choose the planet, the planet chose the life. There is no live on Jupiter or any of the other planets because life couldn't exit there, life has to exist in a planet like this one. And knowing that there are 99999999999999 planets and the univers there must be a couple like this one. Noone knows if there is life in the rest of them, they are too away.
Actually, there is not a mountain caved like that because there are not enough mountains in the Earth. There might be 5000 mountains in the Earth, and 999999999999 planets in the univers. Also, that is not actually true, I already went to places where they say "this rock has the shape of a ..... and this rock...". Leyends? true, but those rocks wasnt created by the humans, they were created by the weather. Chance? yeah.
It is called evolution. A society where if someone murders the rest kill him because it is "wrong" will work better than a society where if someone murders the rest start laughting waiting for be killed too.
Also, it is just a group of biological reactions what causes that result, programmed by the neuronal nets. Pretty weird? yeah, but not impossible to be explained by evolution.
I agree. If god exists we won't know that for sure until god chooses to reveal itself.
About that god already did on bible, I don't know if what the bible says really happened. And if it even did, I still don't know if Jesus was really god, or he was a man from the future, or an extraterrestrian, or even someone that wrote and history and it was really famous. I just can't know it for sure (I'm not saying that it's wrong either).
I think that that is an insult to other religions instead of a reason to believe in God.
Then:
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1. Does God exist? Throughout history, in all cultures of the world, people have been convinced there is a God.
Humans are curious. All the animals are curious, cats, dogs, etc, all of them. As animals, we are curious too and we are intelligent enough to ask ourselves about why the things are like they are. Since our knowledge is limited and the human mind tries to find an explaination for everything, it just gets the "easy" way: "there is a god and it created everything". There. Everything is explained now.
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2. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.
The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.4 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.
The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.4 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.
That's why we are here and not on jupiter! The life didnt choose the planet, the planet chose the life. There is no live on Jupiter or any of the other planets because life couldn't exit there, life has to exist in a planet like this one. And knowing that there are 99999999999999 planets and the univers there must be a couple like this one. Noone knows if there is life in the rest of them, they are too away.
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3. Does God exist? Mere "chance" is not an adequate explanation of creation.
Imagine looking at Mount Rushmore, in which the likenesses of Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt are carved. Could you ever believe that it came about by chance? Given infinite time, wind, rain and chance, it is still hard to believe something like that, tied to history, was randomly formed in the side of a mountain. Common sense tells us that people planned and skillfully carved those figures.
Imagine looking at Mount Rushmore, in which the likenesses of Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt are carved. Could you ever believe that it came about by chance? Given infinite time, wind, rain and chance, it is still hard to believe something like that, tied to history, was randomly formed in the side of a mountain. Common sense tells us that people planned and skillfully carved those figures.
Actually, there is not a mountain caved like that because there are not enough mountains in the Earth. There might be 5000 mountains in the Earth, and 999999999999 planets in the univers. Also, that is not actually true, I already went to places where they say "this rock has the shape of a ..... and this rock...". Leyends? true, but those rocks wasnt created by the humans, they were created by the weather. Chance? yeah.
QUOTE
4. Does God exist? Humankind's inherent sense of right and wrong cannot be biologically explained.
It is called evolution. A society where if someone murders the rest kill him because it is "wrong" will work better than a society where if someone murders the rest start laughting waiting for be killed too.
Also, it is just a group of biological reactions what causes that result, programmed by the neuronal nets. Pretty weird? yeah, but not impossible to be explained by evolution.
QUOTE
5. Does God exist? God not only has revealed Himself in what can be observed in nature, and in human life, but He has even more specifically shown Himself in the Bible.
God's thoughts, personality, and attitudes can only be known if God chooses to reveal them. All else would be human speculation. We are at a loss if God does not wish to be known.
God's thoughts, personality, and attitudes can only be known if God chooses to reveal them. All else would be human speculation. We are at a loss if God does not wish to be known.
I agree. If god exists we won't know that for sure until god chooses to reveal itself.
About that god already did on bible, I don't know if what the bible says really happened. And if it even did, I still don't know if Jesus was really god, or he was a man from the future, or an extraterrestrian, or even someone that wrote and history and it was really famous. I just can't know it for sure (I'm not saying that it's wrong either).
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6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God.
Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets.
Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets.
I think that that is an insult to other religions instead of a reason to believe in God.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by CaptainWill on 2005-02-08 at 14:33:31
Some people actually believe in science and some form of 'god.' Logic and faith can co-exist quite easily, it's when people start using one of these two methods of thought in a place where it has no business to be, that conflict occurs.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by PCFredZ on 2005-02-08 at 16:55:27
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Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets.
Buddha stressed he did not want to be viewed as a god, though a sect of Buddhism made him so anyway. Confucius, obviously, was a PHILOSOPHER. Sheesh. E.g., one of Confucious' quotes, roughly translated in English: "Knowing is knowing, not knowing is not, knowledge." I.e., don't try to fool someone by saying something you don't understand either. If you know it, then you do; if you don't, what's the point of faking knowledge if it would only be a lie to yourself?
In case if you still haven't heard, Confucius was a Philosopher!!!ADDITION:
QUOTE(Dri12)
I beg to differ. The people who wrote the bible witnessed these miracles and then wrote them down. When God came down to earth, people were encouraged to put all of these stories in chronological order and bind them. The bible is not any fiction. If it was then why would Christians worship Him. Also, you have no evidence that that stuff didnt happen, we have a religion.
Allow me to compliment you on the use of "I beg to differ", I thought I was the only one who would actually say that.
However, that is where the compliments end.
Were you one of those people who "witnessed these miracles and then wrote them down"? Were you the one who actually saw "God" with your own eyes? No; you READ about it, in a BOOK. In response to your question, "Why would anyone worship him?"... did you actually read the rest of what I wrote in my post?
QUOTE(Repeating Myself)
Example for easier understanding: say the Harry Potter fans got out of hand. Due to some catastrophe, all methods of recording except these books are eliminated from the world. In 2000 years, what do YOU think people will believe to have happened?
I understand you're a Christian, and of course you would defend what you've been taught for as long as you remember (assuming so anyway). Nevertheless, if that be the case, it may be best for you to be less explicit in this topic and leave it to facts from people on a more neutral side.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-02-08 at 17:08:34
QUOTE(Basan @ Feb 7 2005, 12:38 PM)
Oh, boy... Another one? Can't you possibly leave it alone (belief in God/whatever is named is mostly due to faith)?
Yes, but i just posted some reasons why i do in response to ppl asking me why.
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In case you didn't realized already, it's called "burden of proof". You made the claim, now we ask you to prove it (hard-evidences) to possibly be widely accepted.
And just so happens that we debunked the previous claims (over n' over again), so what's the next 'fail-proof' evidence?
The guy in question could putted in a better way but he didn't prob'ly because others did already. Maybe ithis will serve him for future reference.
And just so happens that we debunked the previous claims (over n' over again), so what's the next 'fail-proof' evidence?
The guy in question could putted in a better way but he didn't prob'ly because others did already. Maybe ithis will serve him for future reference.
In case you didn't realize it but i made no new claims. I just posted my reasons in response to other posts in the other threads, someone came in with a claim, i then asked them why.
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Heck, I can do a Google search that Satan does exist and get a lot of links. Does it mean that it exists? Does anyone started to ear the X-Files theme comin' on all over the sudden? *Sarcasm*
Get better excuses, will ya? If you can't prove it, why insist?
Get better excuses, will ya? If you can't prove it, why insist?
Yes, Satan does exist. I never said he didn't exist. God exists, so does satan. That's why we are what we are. One made us, the other one made us commit sin.
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What do y'all think of this idea:
The Bible was a piece of historical fiction, that became a best seller.
The Bible was a piece of historical fiction, that became a best seller.
Historical NONfiction. Even though the teachings in the Bible to some of u guys may seem like a bunch of baloney talk, the historical facts they've got documented are proven to be correct.
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Do you believe in god entirely on faith?
If your answer is yes, then, these arguements are pointless, you will never understand science, stop posting.
If your answer is yes, then, these arguements are pointless, you will never understand science, stop posting.
Just because we believe in god entirely on faith doesn't conclude that we dont understand science. They're two different things; they dont belie each other.
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First of all I have to say that I dont think that god exists, since cience proves that god doesnt exist, but I cant be 100% sure, so I just dont know it
You cant use ANYthing to refute his existance. Nor could u use visual proof to corroborates it.
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That's why we are here and not on jupiter! The life didnt choose the planet, the planet chose the life. There is no live on Jupiter or any of the other planets because life couldn't exit there, life has to exist in a planet like this one. And knowing that there are 99999999999999 planets and the univers there must be a couple like this one. Noone knows if there is life in the rest of them, they are too away.
I find it strange how people conclude the existance of Aliens yet not God. Reasonings into believe either one of them are the same. If so, then how come people have different views upon these two?
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I think that that is an insult to other religions instead of a reason to believe in God.
How about quoting the entire thing? Because the couple of sentences right after what you quoted here add on and give you the full message.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by ShadowBrood on 2005-02-08 at 17:22:23
You know people, "God" has a 
ing name. I can't recall it t the moment but it starts with an "A". It's like Arculismeitrugbuhniklejt something that sounds similar . This isn't to poke fun of "God" either, MA is trying to put up a good arguement but I wouldn't trust a guy that was going to kill himself about that "God" really exists. The site that has 6 reasons makes no sense because they use improbability to try to convince even though improbability has been proven to work. Just like it was improbable that my uncle would just drop dead for some odd reason, but hell he did! Just because something is improbable doesn't mean its fake (see Christopher Columbus in history class).
ADDITION:
And another thing, you ever notice how heaven keeps moving? First they say it's in the clouds, well when we tore through the clouds in out jets and stuff, there was no angels splatted on the windshields. (This sentence is referring to the milkyway galaxy's space) Well guess what, High Priests and said it's in space, well hey! Now that we have probes crawling around in space we haven't found it yet, and they say it's a different galaxy! GEE MAKE UP YOUR ING MINDS!!! NEXT YOU'RE GONNA SAY IT'S IN ONE OF THE OTHER 10 DIMENSIONS!!! WELL HEY WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE VISIT THEM?
Ok [/rant]
ing name. I can't recall it t the moment but it starts with an "A". It's like Arculismeitrugbuhniklejt something that sounds similar . This isn't to poke fun of "God" either, MA is trying to put up a good arguement but I wouldn't trust a guy that was going to kill himself about that "God" really exists. The site that has 6 reasons makes no sense because they use improbability to try to convince even though improbability has been proven to work. Just like it was improbable that my uncle would just drop dead for some odd reason, but hell he did! Just because something is improbable doesn't mean its fake (see Christopher Columbus in history class).ADDITION:
And another thing, you ever notice how heaven keeps moving? First they say it's in the clouds, well when we tore through the clouds in out jets and stuff, there was no angels splatted on the windshields. (This sentence is referring to the milkyway galaxy's space) Well guess what, High Priests and
said it's in space, well hey! Now that we have probes crawling around in space we haven't found it yet, and they say it's a different galaxy! GEE MAKE UP YOUR ING MINDS!!! NEXT YOU'RE GONNA SAY IT'S IN ONE OF THE OTHER 10 DIMENSIONS!!! WELL HEY WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE VISIT THEM?Ok [/rant]
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Clokr_ on 2005-02-08 at 17:29:27
QUOTE(MillenniumArmy @ Feb 8 2005, 11:08 PM)
I find it strange how people conclude the existance of Aliens yet not God. Reasonings into believe either one of them are the same. If so, then how come people have different views upon these two?
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Yeah, and I would believe that aliens created us, why not? What is harder to believe is that someone (just one, must be really bored if he spent 99999 years doing nothing, and with noone to talk to) created magically the earth and the univers in 7 days. But, why not believe into aliens? We are actually creating new animals using genetics, and advanced race could do so too.
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How about quoting the entire thing? Because the couple of sentences right after what you quoted here add on and give you the full message.
Everybody can go to the first page and go to the link, and read the rest.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-02-08 at 17:40:52
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Yeah, and I would believe that aliens created us, why not? What is harder to believe is that someone (just one, must be really bored if he spent 99999 years doing nothing, and with noone to talk to) created magically the earth and the univers in 7 days. But, why not believe into aliens? We are actually creating new animals using genetics, and advanced race could do so too.
Well, people could just believe that he exists, but not necesarily what he has done.
Most people say they believe in aliens because "there's gotta be something out there. The universe is so huge so why not?" Why not say the same thing about God (His existance, not his works)? And also, there's no real visual proof of aliens nor is there any for God so other than that i don't get the difference.
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Everybody can go to the first page and go to the link, and read the rest.
Some people are too lazy to do so. And if they just read that, they'll get the wrong message... sometimesReport, edit, etc...Posted by Neiji on 2005-02-08 at 19:36:02
Read the whole fricking thing. ALL OF THE PROOFS! IF YOU CAN READ THIS WHOLE TOPIC, YOU CAN READ THE PAGES MILLENIUMARMY HAS POSTED!!!!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by aznwolfstein on 2005-02-08 at 19:50:23
i read CheeZe's first reply and im not gonna read another two pages of something like that, but ill voice my opinion and you can skip over it if you want....
first off, there are too many topics on this
now, god is a concept because it doesnt exist, like how infinity is a concept, neither are proven of disproven. but god isnt the all-powerful being you might of learned when you were young were still learning now, god is a collective way to not only teach morality, but to explain some of the unexplainable things
first off, there are too many topics on this
now, god is a concept because it doesnt exist, like how infinity is a concept, neither are proven of disproven. but god isnt the all-powerful being you might of learned when you were young were still learning now, god is a collective way to not only teach morality, but to explain some of the unexplainable things
Report, edit, etc...Posted by cfro7211 on 2005-02-08 at 20:10:36
QUOTE(aznwolfstein @ Feb 8 2005, 05:50 PM)
i read CheeZe's first reply and im not gonna read another two pages of something like that, but ill voice my opinion and you can skip over it if you want....
first off, there are too many topics on this
now, god is a concept because it doesnt exist, like how infinity is a concept, neither are proven of disproven. but god isnt the all-powerful being you might of learned when you were young were still learning now, god is a collective way to not only teach morality, but to explain some of the unexplainable things
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first off, there are too many topics on this
now, god is a concept because it doesnt exist, like how infinity is a concept, neither are proven of disproven. but god isnt the all-powerful being you might of learned when you were young were still learning now, god is a collective way to not only teach morality, but to explain some of the unexplainable things
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well, i think thats been said before. nothing new.
however, in seeing that this doesnt seem to get old, i'm going to say that:
God is not a concept, but a being. and at that, all powerful and all knowing. He laid down the law of morality, and is not by any means a method of teaching morals.
sides, if there was no God, how would we have morals? and what unexplainable things do we use God to explain? like, the resurrection of Jesus? oh my, that would just prove our point, that God is real.
btw i'm asking you to tell me what "unexplainable events" you are refering to.
when you said that God "doesnt exist" and then say that he's "not disproven" i think you might just be contradicting yourself.