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Staredit Network -> Website Feedback, Bugs & Discussion -> Solution for "Premium Maps"

Report, edit, etc...Posted by DevliN on 2006-08-24 at 18:38:27

That's because we can't. The "request a review" feature doesn't work. If I remember correctly, the maps that are reviewed currently weren't requested, they were just done by MA in his free time.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kenoli on 2006-08-24 at 20:49:10

QUOTE(DevliN)

Hey what ever happened to the reviews anyway? I noticed that the "reviewers" either got lazy or just stopped caring to review maps altogether.

There is no incentive to write more reviews and/or write quality reviews.
Right now it's something-for-nothing. You write a review and you get... to watch it fade into nonexistence. Not a very tempting offer.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Tuxedo Templar on 2006-08-24 at 21:35:52

QUOTE(Kenoli @ Aug 24 2006, 07:48 PM)

QUOTE(DevliN)

Hey what ever happened to the reviews anyway? I noticed that the "reviewers" either got lazy or just stopped caring to review maps altogether.

Bingo. You need rewards, which in turn needs a way to measure quality. Reread my post for the method I outlined.

ADDITION:

QUOTE(DevliN @ Aug 24 2006, 06:48 AM)

I like solution 3 quite a bit (and not only because I suggested the representation idea).

Solution 1 relies more on complexities being better when really you can have a great simple map. Its a good idea, but that would mean people would have to make everything more complex than it needs to be to even be considered.

Solution 1 is a failsafe. Most DLDB entries don't even get a formal review. Having an algorithm to provide one would at least be something.

Besides, if someone works really hard on a map you can usually tell by the level of detail. Whether it's good or not, it at least deserves a few views for the effort alone, right?

QUOTE

Solution 2 is great, though I don't see how that affects the "premium maps" idea. It would be nice to have those links anyway, regardless of whether or not they're "premium."
[right][snapback]549835[/snapback][/right]

But as I said, most of the quality reviews take place in the map's release thread (if any). You'd want those to count toward the map's rating, right? That way you can find your premium maps easier by ratings.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by RexyRex on 2006-08-24 at 23:05:07

Why don't we just use the map spotlight?

Report, edit, etc...Posted by DevliN on 2006-08-24 at 23:06:30

Ah okay, that makes sense.

@Kenoli: I'd probably still write them when I get bored, despite the lack of incentives. Incentives would be nice, though, in the long run when boredom subsides.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mini Moose 2707 on 2006-08-24 at 23:08:50

And put every map that makes into Spotlight into a seperate category in the DLDB?

Report, edit, etc...Posted by DevliN on 2006-08-24 at 23:35:51

That's what I was suggesting earlier. That way the "premier maps" are simply the spotlight maps. But in that case the Spotlight would have to go back to how it was before, updated weekly.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Tuxedo Templar on 2006-08-25 at 00:15:52

You'd want to keep a mirror of spotlight maps in their old folders, though, so that people looking for them not knowing to look in under "premium" maps can still find them, of course.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Urmom(U) on 2006-08-25 at 01:23:14

But not always are maps in the Spotlight good. Last contest there was only 1 good map but 3 were put up on spotlight.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kenoli on 2006-08-25 at 01:27:11

Maybe we should actually use the spotlight for good maps instead of giving it as a prize for contest winners.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Tuxedo Templar on 2006-08-25 at 02:34:07

Contest Winners <p><hr> Spotlight Maps.

Problem solved?

Report, edit, etc...Posted by DoomGaze on 2006-08-25 at 04:09:12

I've been thinking...some things can get really segmented. Let's say there's a map in the DLDB. There's a thread about it in the Maps in Production before it was released. There's also a thread about it in the Maps Showcase. For some reason, there's also a thread about it in the Maps Review. Then MA comes along and is asked to do a review for the map. Although this is probably the worst case scenario, you should get the point I'm putting across. No potential 'customer' for a map would bother researching the map to such an extent, thus at least one of the other source of information concerning the map will be wasted. If there was a way to centralize information regarding the map on the DLDB, then that would be great. Unless everything regarding the map is copied onto the comments or something.

But regarding this issue, a system that involves public opinion is always vulnerable to abuse, and in such a community as SEN, this abuse can occur rather frequently. Perhaps to the extent that any comment or vote a map receives may simply be regarded as irrelevant to the actual quality of the map. Ideally, one could find a good map by going to the desired category, list by rating in descending order, and voila, you can easily find the best to worse maps. Unfortunately, this is not the case because the public ratings of a map can fluctuate so disproportionally, thanks to the tug of war between malicious and honest votes, and the ratings simply cannot be trusted anymore. If such problems did not occur in the first place, this preposition of creating a new "Premium Map" section would not exist. I'm not sure if it's possible at this point or not, but one can avoid this entire idea by simply reforming the rating system, or at least limiting those eligible to vote to the ones who are responsible and honest. With this, there's no need to waste time writing reviews, creating a new forum or category specifically for these "Premium Maps." Just a simple rating system could suffice and still lead to satisfactory results.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Gigins on 2006-08-25 at 04:56:12

Ok everybody things that public is currupt and stuff.

Here my other sollution, it's even more simple:

Make a new category in DLDB called "Premium UMS map" and put all the really good maps in there.

Everyone can tell is the map good or not. If you have to think twice about it, then it's not good.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mini Moose 2707 on 2006-08-25 at 10:53:25

But I'm "biased" and "elitist" I'll put all my friends maps in there.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Felagund on 2006-08-25 at 11:43:54

Even though your friends are the ones that make good maps? Coincidence!

I think we can settle on something in the middle of the road. We should adopt a standard grading system for maps, and any that attain a certain score will be eligible to be in the map spotlight. Therefore, only maps in the contests that achieve that score may go up in the spotlight, and if there aren't enough, then we could pick from any of the other premium maps. Also, the map spotlight should change weekly.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Shocko on 2006-08-25 at 12:24:30

I completely agree with pretty much everybody.

Map ratings is what i look for generally. My procedure is;
•Select the category im looking for.
•Look at the ratings of the maps.
•Look at the name of the map
•If the name is appealing i open the link and read the description given

I think reviews could do with work on. Personally i feel that maybe only people that write reviews, should be able to rate the map ( maybe a basic review format if there isn't already one.)

The map spotlight idea is a good one and it should be updated regularily i agree. The seperate space in DLDB for maps in map spotlight is nice. However i would still like to see my idea ( found in the other thread ) about the 'map making ladder', so depending how long your map is like 1st your map gains points of some kind and the ladder is based upon how many points you have. This contrasts from the map spotlight idea in the way that you wouldn't be able to stay 1st all the time. However if you make the public vote out of 8 maps. (3 of which are in the current spotlight 5 of which have been elected for spotlight material)

But yeah change is good

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Daedalus on 2006-08-25 at 13:58:26

QUOTE(Shocko @ Aug 25 2006, 05:24 PM)

I think reviews could do with work on. Personally i feel that maybe only people that write reviews, should be able to rate the map ( maybe a basic review format if there isn't already one.)[right][snapback]550470[/snapback][/right]

I think that's a splendid idea! Only those who submit a review will be able to vote. To prevent people from saying 'it sucks' or 'it doesn't suck' some (hint: DLDB keepers) check the review quickly to see if its serious. If it is then review gets placed, rating will get implanted. And if the reviewers-get-awarded idea also gets accepted, then the reviewer will get, suprise surprise, his award (which might be minerals, karma, cookies or whatever).

QUOTE(Shocko @ Aug 25 2006, 05:24 PM)

The map spotlight idea is a good one and it should be updated regularily i agree. The seperate space in DLDB for maps in map spotlight is nice. However i would still like to see my idea ( found in the other thread ) about the 'map making ladder', so depending how long your map is like 1st your map gains points of some kind and the ladder is based upon how many points you have. This contrasts from the map spotlight idea in the way that you wouldn't be able to stay 1st all the time. However if you make the public vote out of 8 maps. (3 of which are in the current spotlight 5 of which have been elected for spotlight material)

But yeah change is good

[right][snapback]550470[/snapback][/right]

I don't like the idea of a ladder. When a map is premium it is premium, that will not change in time (though there will always be exceptions, of course). No map will be 'first', the good maps just get a different status to seperate them from the rest. Between premium maps people have to figure out for themselves which they like best, it isn't necessary to do that through votes as well - I don't really see a point in that.

On a side note, Premium Status should not be standard when you win a contest. Every map, including those who won a contest must still meet the 'requirements'. Sometimes, even while they've won a contest, the winning map does not meet the requirements. On other occassions both number one and two are extremeley good, in which case they both should be made premium.
The Premium Map system should be independent of contests. Even though the maps who win a contest will logically be good, they might not be good enough to be made premium.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kenoli on 2006-08-25 at 15:31:36

QUOTE(Shocko)

I think reviews could do with work on. Personally i feel that maybe only people that write reviews, should be able to rate the map ( maybe a basic review format if there isn't already one.)

An alternative would be limiting ratings in a less-restrictive way, like using a member's post count. It could be "Only regulars can rate maps".
It's true that not all the regulars are honest, but they are guaranteed to be more trustworthy than, oh, I dunno, members like this:

QUOTE

To name a few 0-post accounts.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Daedalus on 2006-08-25 at 15:37:06

QUOTE(Kenoli @ Aug 25 2006, 08:31 PM)

[/size]An alternative would be limiting ratings in a less-restrictive way, like using a member's post count. It could be "Only regulars can rate maps".
It's true that not all the regulars are honest, but they are guaranteed to be more trustworthy than, oh, I dunno, members like this:
[right][snapback]550533[/snapback][/right]

Why only give regulars the power to vote/rate? I'm a non regular simply because I do not have the time, energy and need to post a huge lot (besides in the past few days, but that has specific reasons) so I should not be allowed to rate a map? I think that after having years of experience with rating I can say I know at least something about it.

I'm sorry but I am absolutely against anything like an idea like that. It should not matter which title you have or whatever, a review should be judged on the review it self, not on the reviewer.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by DevliN on 2006-08-25 at 16:23:02

Why not hold auditions for new reviewers (like we did when the idea of a review team first came out oh-so-long-ago)? And then only allow the review team to vote on maps. Essentially this is like the "elect judges and then have the judges vote on premium maps" idea I had, but instead the judges have to actually give a meaningful review of the maps. From those reviews, it can be deduced which should be considered "Premium."

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kenoli on 2006-08-25 at 16:55:57

QUOTE(Daedalus)

That was just an example. The idea was to make a quick n' easy system of fighting crappy ratings.
I'm not sure if people will be willing to put in the time and effort required to write reviews for maps.
If we do resort to public rating, this would be a good feature.

It's true that your post count says nothing about your ability to rate a map, but it does say something about your activity on SEN.
I'd say a member with 20 posts has at least a little more weight that a member with 0.
I think even a limit as low as 20-posts-to-rate would help quite a bit.

QUOTE(DevliN)

There could be a system where people submit map reviews, like submitting a map to the DLDB, where it's "invisible" untill a staff member OKs it.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by DevliN on 2006-08-25 at 17:03:22

QUOTE(Kenoli @ Aug 25 2006, 01:55 PM)

There could be a system where people submit map reviews, like submitting a map to the DLDB, where it's "invisible" untill a staff member OKs it.
[right][snapback]550606[/snapback][/right]

Actually yeah, that could work well, too. Therefore we wouldn't need an actual team of reviewers, and MillenniumArmy would forever be off the hook for review-writing.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2006-08-25 at 17:06:13

) look over them, decide if they're quality reviews and approve or disaprove of them. I believe this is the best idea.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kenoli on 2006-08-25 at 17:34:36

QUOTE(MillenniumArmy)

A while ago, I suggested that we do something called a MRDB (Map Reviews Database.) It could be where people can submit map reviews of whatever map they want in our database, but have Map Review Database keepers (perhaps me?) look over them, decide if they're quality reviews and approve or disaprove of them. I believe this is the best idea.

Would we really need a seperate class of staff to upkeep the reviews?

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Shocko on 2006-08-25 at 17:44:22

QUOTE(Kenoli @ Aug 25 2006, 01:34 PM)

QUOTE(MillenniumArmy)

Would we really need a seperate class of staff to upkeep the reviews?
[right][snapback]550631[/snapback][/right]

it makes it easier for everybody if they don't have to do multiple jobs, and only focus on one.

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