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Staredit Network -> Serious Discussion -> Should Canada indict Bush?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by NeoNightmareX on 2004-11-28 at 17:57:08
QUOTE(Chill @ Nov 25 2004, 09:45 PM)
11/15/04 "Toronto Star" -- When U.S. President George W. Bush arrives in Ottawa — probably later this year — should he be welcomed? Or should he be charged with war crimes?

It's an interesting question. On the face of it, Bush seems a perfect candidate for prosecution under Canada's Crimes against Humanity and War Crimes Act.

This act was passed in 2000 to bring Canada's ineffectual laws in line with the rules of the new International Criminal Court. While never tested, it lays out sweeping categories under which a foreign leader like Bush could face arrest.

In particular, it holds that anyone who commits a war crime, even outside Canada, may be prosecuted by our courts. What is a war crime? According to the statute, it is any conduct defined as such by "customary international law" or by conventions that Canada has adopted.

War crimes also specifically include any breach of the 1949 Geneva Conventions, such as torture, degradation, wilfully depriving prisoners of war of their rights "to a fair and regular trial," launching attacks "in the knowledge that such attacks will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians" and deportation of persons from an area under occupation.

Outside of one well-publicized (and quickly squelched) attempt in Belgium, no one has tried to formally indict Bush. But both Oxfam International and the U.S. group Human Rights Watch have warned that some of the actions undertaken by the U.S. and its allies, particularly in Iraq, may fall under the war crime rubric.

The case for the prosecution looks quite promising. First, there is the fact of the Iraq war itself. After 1945, Allied tribunals in Nuremberg and Tokyo — in an astonishing precedent — ruled that states no longer had the unfettered right to invade other countries and that leaders who started such conflicts could be tried for waging illegal war.

Concurrently, the new United Nations outlawed all aggressive wars except those authorized by its Security Council.

Today, a strong case could be made that Bush violated the Nuremberg principles by invading Iraq. Indeed, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan has already labelled that war illegal in terms of the U.N. Charter.

Second, there is the manner in which the U.S. conducted this war.

The mistreatment of prisoners at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison is a clear contravention of the Geneva Accord. The U.S. is also deporting selected prisoners to camps outside of Iraq (another contravention). U.S. press reports also talk of shadowy prisons in Jordan run by the CIA, where suspects are routinely tortured. And the estimated civilian death toll of 100,000 may well contravene the Geneva Accords prohibition against the use of excessive force.

Canada's war crimes law specifically permits prosecution not only of those who carry out such crimes but of the military and political superiors who allow them to happen.

What has emerged since Abu Ghraib shows that officials at the highest levels of the Bush administration permitted and even encouraged the use of torture.

Given that Bush, as he likes to remind everyone, is the U.S. military's commander-in-chief, it is hard to argue he bears no responsibility.

Then there is Guantanamo Bay. The U.S. says detainees there do not fall under the Geneva accords. That's an old argument.

In 1946, Japanese defendants explained their mistreatment of prisoners of war by noting that their country had never signed any of the Geneva Conventions. The Japanese were convicted anyway.

Oddly enough, Canada may be one of the few places where someone like Bush could be brought to justice. Impeachment in the U.S. is most unlikely. And, at Bush's insistence, the new international criminal court has no jurisdiction over any American.

But a Canadian war crimes charge, too, would face many hurdles. Bush was furious last year when Belgians launched a war crimes suit in their country against him — so furious that Belgium not only backed down under U.S. threats but changed its law to prevent further recurrences.

As well, according to a foreign affairs spokesperson, visiting heads of state are immune from prosecution when in Canada on official business. If Ottawa wanted to act, it would have to wait until Bush was out of office — or hope to catch him when he comes up here to fish.

And, of course, Canada's government would have to want to act. War crimes prosecutions are political decisions that must be authorized by the federal attorney-general.

Still, Prime Minister Paul Martin has staked out his strong opposition to war crimes. This was his focus in a September address to the U.N. General Assembly.

There, Martin was talking specifically about war crimes committed by militiamen in far-off Sudan. But as my friends on the Star's editorial board noted in one of their strong defences of concerted international action against war crimes, the rule must be, "One law for all."

Thomas Walkom writes every Tuesday. twalkom@thestar.ca.

Copyright Toronto Star Newspapers Limited

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simply, no, he shouldn't and IP, we will get to North Korea also, i'm sure we will we will not leave a potentially dangerous country with nuclear weaponry and Devlin, we have to help the Iraqis, when we sent the first soldier into Iraq, we then took responsibility for our actions, we cannot leave them in a state of under funded government and anarchy
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Felagund on 2004-11-28 at 22:45:45
Now that we're in this damned mess, we have to get out of it. It doesn't matter what we did - what matters is what we'll do. The United Nations has kept the world relatively in peace (except for the creation of Israel in 1948, voted for in 1947), which started the whole Arab fiasco. Still, their resumé is pretty impressive. They have many politicians still that actually care about the world. America is corrupt. We do not elect the best-qualified leaders; we elect the ones who get more funding and more advertisements. I would rather the U.N. take over America than to have our current administration continue their work. But that is for later!

How do we get out of this mess? That is the big question that remains. Yes, we're training an army. But at the same time, we've disarmed the masses. At a first glance, this is a great step. But at a closer look, what real weapons do the Iraqi armed forces have? What air support? What navy? What armored divisions? As I see it, we're giving Iraq new technological prowess, but they have no means of using that knowledge in anyway. The unemployment rate is something like 70% last I checked. And we're hiring foreign companies to come in and rebuild. Perhaps employ the civilians instead? It would be a start.

Next, how do they still feel safe? It seems that there is a car bombing in every city weekly. Insurgents holed up in every other house. Do the police even know how to fight back? How poorly trained does a police force have to be to have 70 of its members surrendur without a fight, only to be beheaded. Bombings at every police station.

Now introduce business back into Iraq. Create companies that aid the Arab world. This will make the insurgents think twice about blowing up the buildings. Arabs... working for Arabs? Maybe they are brothers! We should not blow them up. Without them funding themselves they will be an endless black hole gobbling at our resources. Yes, you can say the war only cost $180 billion, but add in the cost of "charity" money we've given them. I see a sharp rise.

Lastly move out! We cannot babysit this country forever. Get our armed forces out of this endless conflict. Nothing else can be achieved by us. They will recruit a new Jihadi for every one we kill. Gather in their own recruits into the infrastructure of their own nation. Can we end terrorism? The answer is no. But can they end terrorism? Yes, or they can get it to a negligible amount. One last thing we should do - make up with everyone!

Should Bush be tried for war crimes? No, I don't think he should. Should the U.S. get involved in more disputes. Most vehemently not! I am rather "liberal," but I tried to place things in perspective. For every wrong America has committed I believe we have at least committed a right. That is why the conflict in Iraq has torn this nation apart. People refuse to look at both sides of the story.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Vibrator on 2004-11-28 at 22:54:48
QUOTE(NeoNightmareX @ Nov 28 2004, 05:57 PM)
simply, no, he shouldn't and IP, we will get to North Korea also, i'm sure we will we will not leave a potentially dangerous country with nuclear weaponry and Devlin, we have to help the Iraqis, when we sent the first soldier into Iraq, we then took responsibility for our actions, we cannot leave them in a state of under funded government and anarchy
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LOL, George Bush will never attack North Korea, he isnt that stupid, and they were in a state of under funded government and anarchy before. Going into Iraq did nothing but raise gas prices, kill a ton of people and give the world another reason to hate americans. Even then I wouldnt arrest George Bush, america has enough debt as it is.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Felagund on 2004-11-29 at 11:57:20
I like this pic - from SorryEverybody.com. It made me chuckle.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Staredit.Net Essence on 2004-11-29 at 18:30:12
QUOTE(DevliN @ Nov 26 2004, 02:57 PM)
Go ask every single homeless person in the world how they became homeless and if they want to change their lives around. Once you do that, then you can make a completely opiniated statement like this.
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I did. My mom has a friend whos brother became homeless because he started doing drugs. He was to lazy to work and died a few years later because of a disease he got from a needle. Now read what it says right here. Thx. And i wasnt referring to all homeless people anyway.


PS: The koreans would never attack us. THEY LOVE US. After all wasnt it us who created starcraft which is practically an olympic sport in their country. ;P
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