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When eastern islam starts emulating western society, it'll be considered much more tolerent.

First of all, you cannot "talk about Islam" as a religion, without using other religions as a basis for comparison. Tolerance in this case is unfortunately relative.

As an example, in the 1920's (I believe), the dean of Harvard stated that the University must restrict the quota of Jews allowed in Harvard because "Jews cheat". When someone pointed out that other students of all religions cheat as well, his retort was "We're not talking about other students; we're talking about Jews..."

The logical fault should be quite obvious.

Now, moving on from there, if we take the Quran literally at face-value, it is indeed very easy to see that the literal text is clearly not very "tolerant" at all. That being said, as others have noted, that this is fairly standard among religions.

Just like most other religions, the words can be interpreted in a more tolerant manner. Islam may or may not be tolerant depending on the interpretation one accepts, and that being said, the interpretation that is to be representative of the religion is not for you to decide. (in this case, you used the literal interpretation...)

Unfortunately, Islam is interpreted by a relatively significant amount of Muslims to in an 'extreme', or 'intolerant' manner. Much of this is due to cultural and societal influence.

That being said, it also happens to the "best" of us, but fortunately, the Pat Robertsons of our time are kept in check by our Western secular standard of life. When this wasn't available, the Christians were running the crusades of the middle ages in the name of Christianity.


A bit off topic, but I noticed a few comments touch on this earlier:

According to Judaism, those who are not Jewish are not doomed to hell, so long as they live a righteous life, regardless of their religious belief...

TheDaddy cannot see the difference between referring to and talking about a topic. and i totally agree with what the guy above said.

Here's a link to a recent interview about what's happening in Afghanistan and Iraq, and it has some explanation for the violence in the two countries. It might give something to think about.

The Link (on the right, take the interview with the Aga Khan)

This being said, I think I remember in the Surah "Light" it is said that Allah speaks in parables, so you have to interpret the Qu'ran according to your timeframe, view of the world, and situation. So, for some people, bad interpretations come up.

By the way, until 50 years or so, Jews were only safe in muslim countries. During the chruch's domination of Europe, if you weren't Catholic, you were in deep trouble, and after that, there was Hitler. So talk about intolerance.

I've thought about this issue of increasing extremism quite a bit, being a muslim myself, and this is what I came up with:

First, the Crusades didn't help much in muslim-christian relations, but that's a bit far back. Afterwards, there was the colonisation in many countries where Islam is dominant. I think that a lot of people in there overreacted, they thought that their culture would disappear and they adopted a stricter form of Islam, and the most extremist in some cases. Just before that period, however, Islam was already unstable and undergoing many changes that would have seen it across modernisation, but colonisation and excessive intrusion of the West (I still don't get why this term is used, the world is spherical right?) disturbed and changed this process.

Anyway, most wars in Islam are in Islam itself, expecially against different interpretations (Iraq anyone?) There is a Hadith attributed to the Prophet which states that there will be 72 divisions in Islam, but since not everyone aknowledges it, wars happen.

As a final point in this post that's starting to get long, never mistake politics that use religion to hide themselves, and the religion itself. And whoever came up with "Clash of Civilizations" is wrong, it should be "Clash of Ignorance", as stated in the interview link I posted, since both sides don't know much about the other side, and ignorance makes human being make mistakes.

THis might be irony and maybe youtube might have it but I think it was nbc or abc but there was a documentary on religeon and one lady chose to talk to a muslim.

The lady asked do they believe in a heaven or perfect realm and he said yes.
The lady then asked will people like "I" and others be able to go to that place.
He said only those who follow the Quar'an.
Now she asked why and he responded saying that muslims were chosen or something. The lady also asked are jews an enemy to muslims and the man said that no jews would ever be accepted and saying like they would be eradicated. He also again refered to that people who are not muslim "all" would go to hell.

I'm gona try and find that documentary again it has to be on youtube.

How was this ironic? =/

Even though this post and your post is basiclly a spam its a verbal flur that seperates me from the normies of this world and don't respond to this!

First of all, don't talk for me or describe me because you don't know anything about me.

Second, I was starting a GOOD discussion, I have to ask questions and say things to get a discussion going. I don't want you to debate ME, I want you to debate each other.

With all that being said, shut up and get in and let the discussion evolve.


So back on topic, so I have a question: Was the middle east violent before 1948? Like in the people and culture?

Yes, it was. The Middle East has apparently always been violent and immoral. Before the arrival of Islam, people charged interest rates of hundreds of percents, the culture involving women was immoral, and people were violent. After the arrival of Islam, those who converted to Islam kept their culture as well, which did not reduce violence in the Middle East.

Daddy just didn't want this to become another christian bashing topic. That's all. If you need to compare it to christianity, just make sure you use OLD christianity.

Any religion out there, if it wishes to succeed as a powerful entity, MUST be intolerant of other religions. The more you accept that the other groups could be right, the less you accept your own views. That trend inevitably leads to the degradation of the belief itself.
People who say that two religions are correct are members of neither. (Unless of course you consider Baha'i a religion...)

Isn't that called opinionated and stubborn in English?

You know, in an argument, it's very good not to listen to your opponent. That way, you seem "unbendable" and "force" him (your opponent) wrong. But sadly, no wisdom will come into your head from the debate.

That can explain all the blood in "loving" religions atleast a bit.

What about atheism and agnosticism?

He attempted to start an Islam-bashing topic disguised as an impartial discussion where he does not actually dislike Islam. What a falsity. Chris, YOU started the discussion. YOUR views are that Islam is intolerant. People who disagree with it SHOULD debate you.

In fact, in one thread, you accused me of being a typical Muslim that censored other people's views, but now, you're only showing a fraction of the Koran and asking people to judge the entirety of the Islam religion based on just a few quotes from a large book? And you're asking people not to debate you or ask you questions?

I mean, holy crap man. You call me a Muslim that loves censoring people, but then you go much further along those lines than I do.

Actually that was more than just a fraction. That was like the longest bible quote I've seen on this site so for, that I know of.

One word answers this whole topic:
Extremists

You read what you want to read. Stop victimizing yourself/religion. Don't tell me or other people what my intensions were in starting this topic. I wanted to start the discussion off with a bang, something not boring and a topic that really needed to be discussed.

Actually, anyone who has not studied theology hasn't got to say anything about religion. Even the guy who believes in it. ( In fact, a belief about faith is nothing about actual logic; thus, the believer cannot explain in a logical sense and neither than the non believer because the non-believer knows nothing about it also. )

I think Coran (english word) is as long as the bible is. To many people all the religious bibles sounds like a written lunatic and fantasism. They are all parables. They aren't meant to be literally all real, parables.

It's written in the Qu'ran that Allah speaks in parables. Now that means that each individual has his own interpretation of Islam, which is why Islam can be present everywhere, and why some consider it good and others bad. Now, when there are as many interpretations as there are people, how can you possibly have an impartial debate on it? Islam is what you see it to be, you can take the Qu"ran and make it say it's abominable, and on the other hand, you can make it say that it encourages tolerance and scientific progress. Interpretation of the Qu'ran has caused a lot of war within Islam itself.



I agree wholeheartedly here.

we all know rantent is islam so thats why he made tgis thread to see what people think

I'll stop "victimizing" myself the day you stop telling me I'm victimizing myself. How funny that is. You are telling me what my "intentions" are, yet, you're asking me to stop telling you what your intentions are. More contradictions. Oh, wait, isn't that censorship? You accused muslims of censoring people who disagree. Seems like you're trying to silence me when I'm a Muslim and you're posting crap about Muslims. Looks like censorship, to me. So, hold up, are you a Muslim?

Additionally, the guidelines of the Koran do not really need to be discussed.

Now then, I'd like a reply this: Are we allowed to ask you questions or not? You just told us not to debate you, when you began the debate. What the hell is up with that? And then, I know damn well that you dislike Muslims. It's rather contradictory, being intolerant, and then claiming others are intolerant.

I can get some quotes of you bashing Islam, if you'd really like, because I think it's pretty clear that you've got a beef with Islam in general. Here's a hint: It's people's fault, not the religion. Simply because I practice Islam does not mean I'm evil, intolerant, ignorant, hate women, or wish to kill Christians and Jews. You don't seem to understand that one should not generalize something which can't be generalized effectively.

You calling all Muslims intolerant idiots who are ultra-violent and evil is the same as me calling all Christians evangelicals who wish to start a new crusade and wish to impose Christian laws. Two sides, two extremes.

The Qur'an focuses more on Muhammed, but still recognizes the other religions, hence why it's considered to be a tolerant religion. Most stuff you see discussing Islam today is based off the twists an extremest has made or it's taken out of context. As far as I'm concerned, that's basically the same thing that is said in Judaism and Christianity: nonbelievers burn in Hell. You can say that Judaism is more of the old testament, Christianity is the new testament, and Islam is the last testament. In short, they're all the same thing: praise God (Allah) or burn in Hell. So rather than pinning this topic on Islam alone, you might as well have titled this, "Are religions tolerant?" To what? With the current title, you are forced to compare it to other religions. With the title I suggested, you're comparing that section of religion or history to the way of life today.

Try this quote on for size:

Oh cmon, I already addressed that in my longer more detailed post:

According to Judaism, those who are not Jewish are not doomed to hell, so long as they live a righteous life, regardless of their religious belief...

Where? I just said you were acting like a victim, intentionally or not.



Where did I censor you?



I opened this so that other people would talk about the issue I brought up, not whether I like muslims or not. Not how bad Christianity is etc



This isn't whether I dislike muslims or not. Please note: Not liking something, and being intolerant to that thing, are too very different things. I can not like baseball, and/or I can want it banned. See the difference?



Again this debate is not about ME. It doesn't matter whether I like Islam or not. To clear things up with YOU here is where I stand:
I don't hate Islam.
Im curious about Islam.
I feel there are some basic things wrong with Islam.
I extremely hate the way governments in the middle east treat their people and women and jews.
I support Israel, which doesn't mean I don't see the muslim's point of view on the subject.
At times I get very frustrated with the way people act in the middle east and how many people abroad support them.

Clear things up?



Don't tell me what I understand or don't understand. And sadly, YES, people can generalize and do generalize Islam everyday. It can be done effectively too. Which is sad.



Where? Yea, thought so. Calm down...
Although one extreme is making their point with a bang.

I can't say I agree with you here, but Islam has to be interpreted, and as I said in an earlier post, Islam is what you make it to be, whether you make it as a violence inspiring religion or as a religion that encourages education and the development of knowledge, you can, and Islam allows people to have different views on itself. It all depends on the society you live in, on the culture of the society you live in.

This all well and good, but problems start when one or many individuals try to impose their view of Islam, or to devalorise it completely. Which leads to the situation in the world today.



This is in no way related to Islam. This is politics disguised as an interpretation of religion. People want power, and they use all the means they can get their hands on, and Islam is one, since it can be interpreted in so many ways. Many of the things they do isn't even prescribed by the Qu'ran.

As for Jews, the reasons are again political, and historical. Without being really asked, people were expropriated, countries invaded, and Israel was carved into the already existing countries in the Middle East, and Israel has always tried to expand since (Lebanon twice, colonies in Palestine).

I believe it was agreed to give land for Israel from those countries, but instead of accepting, they just invaded and took more instead of trying peacefully. (This info should be verified, I do think that Argentina and Palestine had proposed to give land for Israel, but they went for Palestine)

You fail to realize most Muslims aren't extremists. I would rather be surrounded by non-muslims than muslims but that is my own opinion.