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He might be on a higher level which we can't understand, yes. However that would not invalidate our logic. Something that is logical in a given system must be logical in all systems that contain that system. Like I say, this doesn't invalidate my conclusion.

And what if he created the universe and just watches us?

Another concept that he created in the first place. To apply logic to god would be impossible, so nothing that we say is valid.

That doesn't change the fact that he's decided to let it be that way.

I don't understand why this would be the case.

It is impossible to apply logic to the possibility of God. He may not even be a "being" in the first place, as he created the concept of space and time. It would be impossible to rule out possibilities of anything related to god because the concept of probability and evidence were also created. Everything that we are capable of thinking of or doing was already designed, maybe the concept of "designing" doesn't even exist. Maybe there are no things such as "concepts". Maybe there are no things such as "no such things". On another note, my idea of the idea of God being impossible to fathom, and impossibility itself, was created by God. The loopholes are infinite (another concept that was created). By designing the concept of logic and reasoning, applying logic and reasoning to his existence is null. I find that thinking about it only leads you in circles.

Yes, I understand how all this would (or at least might) work if God is outside logic. You don't have to tell me the effects, I already know them. What I'm wondering about is the causes. What makes you think God is outside logic? So far I have seen little reason to believe this is the case.

I see little reason to believe that it wouldn't be the case. I'm not saying what I believe about God is true, I'm just saying that it can be either way, so it's not safe to assume that athiests would have a larger chance to ascend to "heaven" untill we actually know anything about God.

This topic... is way outta hand now.
In religion, mentallity is everything and materialism is nothing. Think of it this way, God is like a killer present you find out after you die. You'll never know if hes real or not in life.
Lets say you were a disbeliever.
1: God did not exist : You'll never know a thing after you die.
2: God did exist : You'll burn in hell for eternity.

Lets say you were a believer.
1: God did not exist : You'll never know a thing.
2: God did exist : You'll go to heaven peacefully and have eternal goodness.

So the conclusion is, being a believer is better than not being a believer.

You mean aside from the fact that everything we have ever observed is consistent with a logical universe?

If God is illogical, then we humans, running under a logical system, cannot know anything about him.

Created and designed by God (if God exists).

Yea

Let's say you were a believer and Green Meklar's argument applied (which, despite the fact that I don't agree with it, is still more logical than what is stated in The Bible).
1: God did not exist: You have wasted your life adhering to restrictive rules.
2: God did exist: You have wasted your life adhering to restrictive rules.

Okay, wait a second here. This is what your reasoning looks like so far:

P1: Everything we have observed is consistent with the Universe being a logical system.
P2: The Universe could have been created by God.
C: If God exists, he runs on an illogical system.

Okay, now I'm going to apply the same logic to a different scenario.

P1: Everything we have observed is consistent with StarCraft being a logical system.
P2: StarCraft could have been created by Chris Metzen.
C: If Chris Metzen exists, he runs on an illogical system.

This is clearly ridiculous. If the system Chris Metzen runs on (namely the Universe) was illogical, we would know it by now.

Well, I think the idea here is that our life in this Universe is insignificant because the chances of an infinite afterlife are not infinitesimal. However, there is also the aspect that the chances of an infinite life in this Universe are not infinitesimal either...hmm...

I'm sorry, I realize that I didn't clarify what I said. I didn't mean that that God was illogical, this example shows what I really meant.

P1: Chris Metzen created Starcraft as an application, marines are a part of StarCraft.
P2: No matter what, marines cannot move out of a map they were spawned in, nor can do they anything except move and shoot.
P3: Chris Metzen can have imagination, free thought, can choose if he wants to fight an enemy, etc.
C: Since we are component of an "application" that was created, the creator must be on a completely different logic system.

PwnPirate is kinda getting close to what I personally believe about God. I think of God as a writer. I believe very strongly in fate. I believe everything we've done and will ever do is already predetermined. However, we have no way of knowing what's coming because we are characters in this universe. When you watch a movie or read a book, the fates of the characters you're getting attached to has been long decided. But you (the viewer) don't know what's coming, and the characters usually don't either.

With this mindset, I've become quite okay with the whole "There are things in this world that are too terrible for God to allow if he were real." You gotta admit, no story is very interesting without conflict. You can't hold it against Shakespeare for killing Romeo and Juliet, or Kubrick for that gang of thugs in A Clockwork Orange. Does that make them terrible or irresponsible leaders of their little universes for allowing (or rather, scripting) those things to happen? I wouldn't say so. Maybe we are taking our sorrows too personally.

Okay, two things I should point out.

First, it is not necessary for someone above us to run on a higher system, rather they must run on a higher or equivelant system. The only thing they cannot run on is a lower system.

Second, there is an enormous difference between a higher logical system and an illogical system. Your original claim was to the latter, and that claim still has yet to be substantiated.

So you're saying God lets people suffer because he finds conflict amusing, just as we let our SCVs and zerglings suffer because we find that conflict amusing? This makes a lot more sense than the idea of an omnibenevolent deity.

Here's where I disagree. If we are units in God's RTS game, that doesn't mean it's somehow okay for us to suffer, at least not from our viewpoints (and those are the only viewpoints we have access to). We still have every reason to try to prevent suffering on our part. All your idea does, if it's true, is to eliminate God as someone we can appeal to to end our suffering.

1. You can't design something without superior knowledge as to exactly what you are drawing.
E.g. A master martial artist cannot create another master martial artist with his knowledge of martial arts alone. He must also know the art of teaching, other's limitations and points of view, etc.
Therefore, a god would require higher knowledge. Anyways, we don't know about every aspect of the universe anyways, so even if it was possible for God to be on an equal level as what he created, we still wouldn't understand his logic.

2. Like I said, that isn't what I meant by illogical. You are misinterpreting what I am trying to say here.
From a marine's point of view, it is illogical to do anything except shoot the enemy and walk around, therefore Chris Metzen is illogical from a marine's point of view. Therefore, God is most likely illogical from our point of view. Our logic system wouldn't apply to God because he designed our logic system to begin with.

Your analogy isn't very good; you're thinking about this on a far too human level. Now, God may be human in this sense, but the system our Universe runs on, and the system God runs on, are most certainly not. We're dealing with mathematics, not martial arts education, and mathematics shows me to be right in this case.

While it is difficult to say exactly how the marine would view Chris Metzen, one thing is certain: There is still a world of difference between a logical system and an illogical system. It may be impossible for us to understand God, but that doesn't mean God is illogical, from any point of view. It just means that he has access to logical systems we don't have access to. And of course, from his own point of view, or the point of view of any beings on higher levels than him, his system would be entirely logical. Truly, objectively illogical systems are something else entirely.

That said, personally I find it unlikely that we are on a lower system that God is. Remember, when you run a universe one level lower down, you don't have to simplify it; you are allowed to run it on the same logical system as your own. And so far, we humans have found very little reason to run any complex experimental universe on anything lower than a turing-complete system (and as far as I know the prevailing idea is that our Universe is a turing-complete system). In other words, it just doesn't seem that God would find it useful to limit our Universe that way.

Like I say, that's only if he made our system less powerful than his own system, which seems unlikely.

Why be scared to die when if you repent and believe , and you can have immortal life in heaven? I am scared of dieing in a painful way and I'm not going to be reckless because I have only one life to live, and its gods greatest gift.

I am scared of death because of the possibility God may be very strict when deciding who might go to Heaven. Also, it scares me when I think about dying, and the possibility of the pain that comes with it.

Being an atheist, I can't be at all sure that there is any kind of afterlife. As for repenting, well, yes I am sorry for anything I did which I knew at the time was immoral, and if Jesus wants to have died for me too that's all fine by me. However what I consider immoral is not necessarily the same as what the Bible says is immoral, and I still don't believe in God or Jesus or whatever. So if the Bible is true then I'm probably doomed.

Well, he can't really be that strict, because otherwise there wouldn't be much point having Heaven at all. Besides, from what I know of the Bible (I haven't read it in its entirety yet), it seems to indicate a fairly loose set of criteria that wouldn't be too hard for most christians to fit.

Lately I've been getting.. shall I say, not afraid of death at all. Life is nice and all, but not existing wouldn't be any worse. The bad thing is that I can't imagine how it would be like to not exist, and I get very annoyed when I can't imagine something . I would have to agree with those that say that they only fear the pain that usually precedes death - who wouldn't? I care for those in my life and don't want them to feel any sorrow at my passing, but even that doesn't scare me. For some reason, it's like a passing sorrow, not important.

Of course, it would be awesome if there were an afterlife, with joy and no worries, but I really doubt it.

And on the topic of getting into heaven, if can't be that hard. I think that even if you get into hell, there are ways to earn your way into heaven. I doubt god would be so cruel as to condemn you to an eternity in hell or an eternity in heaven based on less then a hundred years and not count anything you did afterwards. It hints at an evil side to god.

I hope their is a way to eventually get into Heaven from Hell, because immortal suffering would be horrible. If you are not scared of dying, I guarantee you are scared of the pain that causes dying.

I'm not trying to turn anyone into a new religion... but there are several ways to get to heaven. And there isn't always pain in death, for example, death of old age.
Another would be breathing in C02 for a while until you fall asleep and eventually
die. It's painless. Well thats what I heard atleast.

Lots of people are afraid of death, but only certain ways of death is freaky. Like if you died of cancer or a gunshot. Then that's completly scary, but anyhow I am afraid of death as well as any other guy beside me.

I don't believe death of "old age" is officially recognized by medical professionals anymore. They usually die because of major organ failure (simply because the organ is old and has given out). I'm sure its at least a little painful most of the time. ;p

I wanna die Frozen, to minimize pain

I ain't a-feared o' nuffin'.