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Humans.

Wait, no, stop. Listen listen listen Listen.

If God does truly exist outside our realm of time,
and if humans created religon,
and if logic is truly what governs anything, wouldn't it make sense?

Human creates God
God becomes powerful
God conquers time, something humans have not done
God comes back as Jesus
And the cycle begins again.

It almost makes sense...

If God does indeed exist, and is as powerfull as seems, and can do everything adn anything: Can God create a rock so heavy that God himself is unable to lift it?

yes. but why would he want to do that?

Because it proves he can't do everything. In this case, it would be lifting the rock that he made that he could not lift.

So, how about them burden of proofs eh? ;D

I do not see what you're getting at here.

What is this burdening of truths you speak of

and why would anyone want to make something they could not control? That is afterall what makes God God.

You said god could make something that he could not lift. Thus, proving he is not all powerful. Because, if he could make this item, then he cannot lift it. Otherwise, he couldn't make it, which would be a limit. So, you see, it's impossible to be all powerful.

The burden of proof is when one side assumes something and the opposing side challenges them to prove their assumption. If they don't, then the assumption can be ignored and voided.

It doesn't work the other way around. You propose god exists. I ask you to prove it. I don't need proofs on it's nonexistance for you to fail.

God could also split the damn rock in half and move each.

It still moves, doesn't it?

I really don't see what your analogy prooves.

Ah, so you admit that there is something he can't do. This proves he is not all powerful.

I do not believe I ever admitted that.
The logic you would so heavily rely would say that in order to move something big, it's more managable to split it into two parts.

You haven't prooved anything accept for your inability to put words in my mouth.

By your assumption, my faith is weak since I wasn't forced to embrace religion, being taught the Christian principles and raised to be a self thinker at the same time . Alas for you, I prefer it that way. Not goin' to convert by your mere words, sorry.

And so many muslims... and I'm refering to the ones that have been fanatized, alas badly taught imao. They think that their faith is measurable by their self sacrifice, enough to blow themselves for Allah. Is that the amount of faith you're refering to (read only amount, not the quality and/or the religion professed)? If so, tks but definetly no tks.

For the 2nd paragraph... n' so one of'em was put to the test by being said to sacrifice it's own child. Was the God of those ages mature enough to the point of wanting blood shed of innocent animals in His behalf? A cruel pratice I might add.

And sorry, I got it an 'eon' ago. That's why I don't buy into Christianity anymore. Divergence of opinions, but not an important one. I respect yours, but don't try to make me a believer into it.
As you've already realized by now (or should, if didn't) my stance here is only to point many of the religions' incongruences, being this case the Christian one.



And couldn't this be made in another different way? Why trough the negative side, aka pain (read from Jesus or the lambs)?
If God/whatever were more merciful not to mention others, it would've found another better way to pull it off.



All I can say is... proof, please.
Talking in the future isn't the way of earning my agreement. Any fortune teller could've said the same. Or a book, btw.



I didn't said it. So, don't try to shove stuff down my mouth 'cause it won't stick.
Anyway, Cheeze took the words out of my mouth. It was implied in my previous reply, but since it seems you didn't want to understand it in the 1st place. Step down of that pedestal, if you will.



Oh boy... this seems to need a meaning lesson. *Looks again at the thread title*
This is belief. This is proof. One, most of the time defies the other. Therefore stop saying that there the same or even sinonyms.
I didn't saw a single shred of evidence pointing in that direction, so why insist at it? By the Nth time.
Cheeze, again you summed it up before I did (same post as linked above). *Pats on it's back smilling*



And still with no proof what so ever. *Rants at the lack of demanded long time proofs*
I didn't said it didn't exist (in most of these threads 'round here), just that there aren't proofs so far, to allow us to conclude that it does or doesn't.
You're beggining to get me ticked with that 'enlightened no-proof' stance of yours.



Finally, it seems that we're gettin' somewhere.
And it only took what? A dozen pages or more (roughly counting all these threads).

ADDITION:


*Sigh* Guess I spoke too soon. And where's the proof of that "all true stuff"? At best, you can prove the parts I said before (trough scientific methods, like observation) not the whole thing. Stop those gimmick attempts, will ya?





Not even gonna start n' comment those things... again.
See my 1st paragraph reply here (this post) to you above. Mixed with concepts, of course (Heaven, Hell, what ever, etc., etc.).



See Cheeze's "Burden of Proof".



Odd indeed. Tell me then where it's written and even better... proven.



And the real key here is: "I believe". Nothing more, nothing less.



Not the almighty n' omnicient s**t again!
It's has been already covered (read debunked). Somewhere in these threads. It was said (many times before), so why allow evil to manifest itself (to taint the world)? There goes the Perfect, Intelligent design idea. I fail to see the real point of dragging this time n' time again. It's your concept, not ours and much less a proven one. *Shrugs face*



Could it be? Turning back and beggining to respect others view point (a proven one). Wait a sec... from previous experience, let's not speak too soon.



Here we go. Back to the drawing board. And where's the proof? Please show it to us, the 'ignorants'.



Provided you don't apply emotion. That really screws that theory no time flat.
Or worse, Science. In this last one, it demands proofs. Ops... I'm about to begin an unwanted circle logics'. Nvm then, simply don't want to go back to the thread's topic title.

As for the rest, I'll gladly standby n' watch. It's not really what I'm interested in.

Addition reason: Sorry, but when trying to post it stumbled upon some image limit of some sort.

MilleniumArmy, there's no way any of us are going to be converted just, because we're not going to take your word for it.

Please, any mods reading this, close this topic, and BAN all God-related topics. People posting stuff like this are just siccing minerals off things that are simply infinitely debateable, neverending, and, of course, VERY annoying.

Because he created us all and gave us all a choice. Just about everyone chose to follow him except for lucifer (aka satan). So then satan deceived others.


Probably no evidence now, but back then hundreds of people witnessed it.


If they were made up, how come all 66 books seem to have the same teachings within themselves? Can't be coincidence can it?

And you're also trying to avoid my question as well. Rather than providing me proof of his nonexistance, you simply say "the burden of proof is on you, not us!" That's not the point. The point is whether you could provide any for your argument regardless of whose on the "offense" or "defense" or whoever started this thing up. And since you didn't provide me with an answer, i assumed you guys were unable to provide me with any.


K whatever


It's actually suppose to be on both sides. And we both fail to provide any. Cuz i dont really know who started this God talk but it sure as hell wasnt me. I just joined in while people were in the middle of a discussion like ages ago.


Examples though, give me some examples. Cuz you're just generalizing.

Well, where is the proof of his nonexistance. i want to know.


God was just there since the very beginning. It sound's illogical but something we humans cannot understand.


How about ur burden? I've already said i had none, so i guess it's your turn. And again, dont give me that bs where the burden of proof is on us, not you.


As for me, i only proosed god's existance in defense because of all the replies i've seen saying "God doesn't exist."


The Bible is my proof. I don't care what your thoughts about it are. If it weren't for the Bible, how would we know all these things?


*mma go off topic here* Speaking of fortune tellers, they're like hypocrites. They think they're telling the future, but about 50% of the time they're wrong.


I'm not trying to shove stuff down your mouth


I didn't say they were the same. But neways yea i shoulda changed the thread name cuz what i really meant by it was "Why we believe in god." The links contained some of our what we thought were best possible "proofs."


As i've said over and over again, i already provided my proof, and now i've got nothing more. Cant coerce neone.


Well im sry, but it's the truth. You cant coerce me to change my stance.


Erm... i belive i said that a long long long time ago...


As i said the Bible, i dont care what your thoughts are about the Bible.


I dont even feel like commenting your "arguments" nemore. They're getting repetitive, making my arguments repetitive as well.


I know man. I never said ANYwhere that i'm coercing you guys to believe in God. The purpose of my arguments are for my stance, not to change your stances.

let me see, what's the purpose of these forums? To discuss serious controversial issues. Religion is a perfect example of what should be in this forum. It will end someday trust me. Soon everyone will get sick of repeating the same things over and over again (just like me) and we'll leave it.

If you find these annoying, then dont read it. What harm does it pose to you?

Ok, seems like everyone's asking for "proofs" because they seem to think that we're trying to convert them. Well, no.

Also i'mma change the thread title to what i'm really trying to say.

Ok, first of all satan was on of god's top angels. God didnt know satan was going to turn. When satan turned, Saint Michael slay the dragon(satan) and god banished satan and all his angels to hell.

No, god knew satan was going to turn. When satan turned, God banished them from heaven and so they're now on earth.

Doesn't it suck when someone doesn't know their own religion?

Anyway, seriously, I don't need proofs of god's non-existance. I told you already, the burden of proof is on you and you're ignoring it. Stop ignoring it and face it!

Ergo, you make a weak arguement.


I understand this is your topic. In that case, I suggest you move it to the Garbage forum. I don't think you should be getting minerals just by replying to everything people say... which is a LOT.

I see something terribly wrong with your logic. You say I claim he exists and so therefore say i have the Burden of Proof. Before i even joined this god-talk, i remember seeing you (and others) claim his nonexistence WAY before mine in the other threads. I already told you this many times and u simply ignored it. Since you never complied, i assumed you agreed. So let's take this step by step. Whose argument came first? Yours did. Which side should have the "Burden of Proof?" The side that started up first. And who would that be? You.


And do you have a better one? I dont think so.


You care that much about minerals?!? Think about it, what is the purpose of minerals? What harm is there for getting lots of minerals for posts like this? God IS a very serious issue. It does not deserve to be in the Garbage.

Wrong again MA, the burden of proof lies on the person making assumptions, not the one who says the first arguement.

Your assumption is god exists. I challenge you to that. I'm not making any assumptions. I don't need to make any.

Hey, there are comrades here who doesn't give a ing about god. If you love god that's great even though your gay if you love god. I don't believe in god, I don't even believe in micles.

And prey tell us, the 'ignorants', if I followed another God - let's say Allah - would I be damned?



As much as I can witness that you've run over a guy with a car. Witnesses can assume stuff as foreseen and really haven't. I had a similar event with an car accident when someone said it saw me hitting the other fella's car on purpose (of course, it was a friend of his).
For sums, the mind can play you tricks. Unless it's well documented (read scientifically based) allow us to disagree.



Me and say a bunch of followers believed that rape is in fact good. To convince others we can write an imense ammount of books and publish it widely. It doesn't meant that we're right, does it?

We (or at least I) didn't claimed that It/whatever didn't exist. All I'm asking is for you to prove it, since you allegedly said it does. Time n' time again, I might add.
Assumption. Your best friend it seems. You assume too much and conclude little/nothing (read prove).
Btw, noticed the thread's title has just changed. Coincidence? I suppose not.



*Looks at topic starter* Need I say more?



Best circle logic I've seen for ages now. Or not. Go above and read the links provided, just to see if you can finally grasp the concept ("burden of proof").



Assumption at it's best. Since you don't know n' don't understand what was there in the beggining why do you cling for God being just it? Seriously, this kind of religious zealotry makes me cringe.



Circle logic. And again. What a 'big' difference... When do you make something new here (aka proofs that God exists as you claim)?



Proposed. The hidden key of your sentence. Not proven. Another theory amongst the huge flock of'em around this subject (aka "What was there in the beggining?").
Can you say Occam's Razor? *Shrugs face at presented stubborness*



Experience perhaps? Or scientifically written books such as Copernicus n' Galileo did, for instance.
And you know where it ended, don't you? So, don't keep pushing meaningless issues back.
Altough, I find it interesting that you only do half quotes when it suits you.



So can the Bible be. Alas, it keeps gettin' fetched out of the drawer. *Grins face*



Tk God. It so much lightens my mood.



Wich most of'em were debunked. (Obviously you don't expect us to go search all inside those sub-links. I have other n' far better things to do.)
Any new one? Can we now close this?



But can't you restrain it a little? Like to what's proven.
Again, you don't fullly quote me. It was amidst your not proving nothing, but wth. I'll let this one sizzle by...



But yet you get back at it the moment I turn my back. Please let's just stick to what's proven, will we?



It's your circle logic that get's me back at'em. Not me. *Shakes head*
I still use'em since known that they're proven or hardly countered (Occam's Razor, Logic n' Science amidst the Bible, "Burden of proof", etc.).



And since your stance has been debunked can you lighten it up a little and compromise?
Extremism is such an terrible waste of time and resources.



Another adrena' buddy.
If I were gay, that extreme xenophobe stance of yours would insult me. Since I'm not but have homossexual friends, please resfrain from posting persecutory crap you don't know nothing about. Respect others as they'll prob'ly respect you for your difference.

This is the Serious Debate section, not the kindergarden for arrogants. *Meh, this was my rant of the day*

omg lol the every student one is funny as hell its like trying to use the logic athiests use to tell why the earth exists. ITS ALL based on chance, well whenever something seems like a very low chance of happening consider yourself extremely lucky because what ar e the chances you would have been the chosen sperm to make you into existance.

And here we get to the other point of the arguement: what is existence? What is thought? perhaps it is all, as the last speaker's name suggests, an illusion. We don't actually know what is real. Perhaps "God" is real; perhaps "Gody" is in yourself, and me, and everything that exists. That is the Hindu belief of Brahman.

However, today, there are some quite different arguments of what existence is. Perhaps, we are all brains inside some mad scientist's jar? That's logical if you ignore where the new brains come from and where the old brains go. Perhaps, I am the only brain in the jar, and you are all illusions; note that I do not use the term "fake", since things you imagine are not necessarily fake. However, this is where one's belief will start to shift toward egoentric. Is saying "I'm the only real brain here" egoentric? Why, that's about the definition of the word! Therefore, I will not hold that as my belief. I feel everyone should instead have a mutual trust in each other, that everyone else on the opposite end of the topic are, in fact, real people; hard to imagine on the internet though, isn't it?

Nevertheless, as MilleniumArmy changed the topic title to "Reasons why i think God exists" in spite of all us atheists giving him perfectly reasonable logic reasons to prove otherwise, I will only leave one last, um, word, for the Christians that are here, before my never returning to this pointless, pointless topic again:



Hmm, that was a long word.

O man, these posts are so tasty. I'd reply to all of them, but i figure this all has to come to an end now...


Ok lets compromise: I believe in God, you dont. I have my own stance, you have your own. Let's just leave it there k

No hard feelings guys if there were any to begin with

Ok. I can concur with that (our religious beliefs differ). I'm currently waving between agnostic and atheist as said before, but wth I'm finally getting amused today.

And I only kept pushing back with ya n' you know why? You didn't concede that it wasn't proven. Stopped picking with 'Kame 'cause of this (post #68). Since he said to only believe in God solely on faith, I quited.
Those were my only 'hard feelings' here (with Christians that didn't proved what claimed). Since those ceased, I'm fine with it.

To me, it's lockage time.
Edit add:


Unless we can mantain it open n' divert to the 'delighful' posts you said to be recently here.

Ok, would just like to say that we have proof that god exsists. We have the bible. We have an entire flipping relegion. What do athiests have of proof against god's exisistance? Nothing, nadda, zip, zilch, zero. If you have something, then post but im just saying now you cant find anything.