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Wtf mill... I don't see how Alpha's post related to yours in anyway. I don't even know why you are even talking about praying and christianity. The arguments didn't have anything to do with praying and christianity at all. You said christianity for only the second time in this topic.

I'm responding to his last paragraph really.
They're saying that they should just play our own game on us. They're implying that you can just make up a religion, claim u go to hell for not abiding by it, and say there's no way to refute it. I'm just saying that Christianity isn't just some made-up religion, otherwise prayers wouldn't work.

It really doesn't relate, what happened to LtDonny was that someone was trying to force their beliefs on him, and Alpha replied by saying do the same thing to them by forcing his beliefs on them. It's not christianity's fault, its the christian who beliefs that he has to force beliefs on someone else.

Devilesk. Let's say somebody is going to get in a car wreck. You somehow know it will happen. Are you going to let them die or tell them something? When they think your crazy(seeing as how it is a total stranger) will you drop it and let them die? Or will you keep pressing it upon them to make them realize you aren't lying? Well I would press it upon them. Religion is the same thing. You know if you do not repent you will be condemned. You thent ry and tell other people what to do, when they don't buy it, will you just drop it and let them die? Same answer as above. best example for converting people I know of.

Lol so you "somehow" know that your religion is right, like you "somehow" know that someone will get into a carwreck? Also, you can't force anyone to do anything. They must make up their minds for themselves. And you shouldn't pester them with things they don't want to hear that they have already made their minds upon. Sure you can educate people about what you believe, but if they already know about the "consequences" you shouldn't push it anymore.

The way I see it, a car wreck is a matter which can have life and death. Religion, to me, is not a matter which can have life and death, unless you use violence to try and reach out to people, but then, it is taken too far. Let people believe what they want to believe. However, they way I see is not the way eveybody sees, therefore, people may see it as life and death (we will all die sometime)...

I have considered to be a Jainist,
but I predicted that I would fail miserably.

ahem.

A few of the past notes have related to christianity. This thread is about agnosticism and atheism. Please bear that in mind.

Thank you.

I've not read a single post on this thread, so I'm not relating anything I say to anything that has been said—I am just going to tell you where I've come to be in my life, spiritually.

I am not "atheist" sort of speak, nor am I "agnostic;" I am a joint-believer. I do not believe that a "God" exists—I believe the word and perspective was made of this world, and not anywhere beyond.

On the other hand, I do believe a greater power exists. Something, that is very powerful I might add, created this world. Nothing is perfect, this creation of the "being" we call the Earth has natural disasters, death, famine, pestilence, war, and other harmful instances occur all the time. The deity of power is not a universal being. I believe it was some sort of catastrophic explosion of energy within the galaxy that created the existence of matter.

I believe in a universal higher-power, I do not believe in God—therefor I am not "atheist" or "agnostic."

Did you like completely miss the point? Gosh some people...

I was making an analogy of two things, not saying they were the same. Of course religion isn't about death, I was saying it is the same concept. I don't think I will have the patience to explain what I meant to you. Ask someone who is willing not to scream for your ignorance. Sorry FK I will get back on topic

Sorry to quote you fortune, but I think you're atheist. By universal power, I suppose you mean matter or something? God is a some kinda of being, if he isn't a being, then he's not a god. Just an energy force. Like, the fire in my lighter. It doesn't think, or feel. It's just a flame.

What you mean no proof? It is called the B I B L E. Of course, with your pre-loaded thoughts, you already believe that the Bible is not true because it has supernatural events and you will make a Christian answer a billion questions at once, making it impossible for any type of conversion whatsoever. And, one thing I've noticed much about atheists is the fact that they oversimplify the reason that they go to hell, but oh well, this is agnosticvsatheist so i can't speak of it.


Actually, this is practically how Islam from Muhammad came into existance, except Muhammad was sincere. Oh yea, also, to make sure that your religion stays alive, get expelled from your country, go to a foreign land, impose your religion upon them, gather a large number of followers, come back to your country, take it over by force and come into power, convert them into Islamists, and finally claim that your religion is a peaceful religion with love and joy.

You just followed the steps of Islam!!!
Oh, and speaking of which, if this were true, many spectactular miracles would happen in a small gap during this revelation too. If you read the Bible, there are only 3 small time periods where supernatural instances occur, and they all occur when God is revealing new messages.

Now, I believe this is supposed to be an ATHEIST VS AGNOSTIC thread. How come I don't see you two sides bickering if the truth can be known? I mean the fact that agnostics claim they don't know impedes atheism, which claims they DO know something!

Bicker and blather.. yay!

Unless you're like me and you don't claim to know anything, find yourself unqualified to make any claims, and therefore refuse to believe with evidence giving me a reason to make said claims. I think soft atheism and agnosticism get along quite nicely.

You say all this as if you proved my satire wrong.

One thing, let me add a question for you here. If your bible is proof that your religion is right (assuming that's what you meant), then how come you disregard information from OTHER bibles? (If 1 bible says something, and another bible says another...how can they both be right? Doesn't sound much like proof to me) BTW, who said I wasn't sincere about that thing? Maybe I'm acting sincere only to throw you off. (We shall see who really believes in me now) I got it written down in my future bible. It's called "The Book of Leif." And guess what, in my bible, it says that "ALL OTHER BIBLES ARE WRONG." Quoted from me, back when I used to hang out with Socrates. (In my former life of course) You can't deny my bible, for that it is proof.

BTW - If you say something like, "by "THE BIBLE" I meant the christian one.". Then you have your head way up your ass. Saying that your book is proof, and their book is myth, only because your book said so. I pray to myself that you have a better reason, so I could at least respect your opinion. (When it comes to religion)

Wich other "failed religions"!?! Judaism, Budhism, Islamism, Ortodox Church, yada yada... if those are 'failed' religions yours is as well. Don't get on the 'rightheous high horse' again, please. *Shrugs face*
Prayers are what they are. Solely faith based attempts that try to express itselves mainly in wishin' something (either for communal good or otherwise) or even written ones. If you choose to attribute'em to a certain religion, fine. Just don't say that they're answered (in here), for objectivity's sake.



*Meh* Kinda what I was thinkin' right now.



*Sighs* In the religions' lottery what makes you think that you've hit the jackpot?
Humph, go n' read mine above paragraph.



No true upholding principles Christian would attempt those. Tolerance is one of it's basis, not the other way around. Similar to what Devilesk said (and as alas it happened to me before).



1st of all, how are you sure that it will happen? Not the 'faith stick' hovering above our heads...
2nd, would you really care for a stranger even when he dismisses your rightheous unproven point?
3rd, for all we know it could be Satan's work all along...

For sums, thanks but no thanks... when I want to be 'saved' (aka converted), I'll head to the 'lottery ticket' that fancies me the most and buy it whole without any doubt (read gullible reason).
Side note: Your sense of tolerance about free choice in the religious field simply astounds me.



Drats! Beaten to the snag. Good point, though. *Winks n' smiles back*



Tell that to many religious fundamentalist around.
Altough I can relate to that PoV of yours of letting'em ppl choose for themselves.



And where does it states proof that that 2000 year ol' best seller novel is in fact true? Or even what makes you think that you've got the religion's lottery jackpot?
And what "hell"? That's a concept pre-made to instill fear and making you that way complying to a religious referencial 'someone' wants you to fulfill. Inferences won't get you anywhere in this field, since you don't know if there's really a Heaven, Hell, Limbo or any afterlife yada yada - let's keep it simple by saying that those are concepts that anyone can 'buy' if he/she wants to.



As for that 1st paragraph you must be kidding me. Take the "by force" and "islamic" part away and I'll recall a few passages from the Bible or even Christianity's history where those succedeed. Cut the prejudice innuendos already. There will always be religious zealots in almost every creed you take a peek at. I just didn't saw any agnostic or even atheist forcing their belief into someone 'till this day. The rest as they say... it's history.

2nd paragraph - And the novel continues. Will those Sci-Fi events ever be proven? I know for some unwritten facts that already have (for example, C-14 dating bones to some extent support evolution).

Now for the 3rd paragraph... not the "absolute truth" crap again. "I think therefore I exist." from Descartes will clear my PoV. All I know it's that we don't have factual proofs of the stated about deities or not - basically a "will a higher entity or not exist?" question. And I'll keep open minded to the chances of it happening or being disproven in my lifetime. *Glares around*
Now if atheists do believe that It won't exist due to the lack of evidence so far, who am I to question their stance or even their 'labelling'?

Side note: Meh, I wandered a lil' (mainly due to the response factor) but in the end came back on track methinks.

1) I said it was an example. obviously that would never happen it is just being used to show why people(as many say...) "force" there religion upon others.
2)yes I would. I am sorry you are not kind and only care for yourself but not everyone is like that. many times I have tried converting atheists, most of the time it works(except online...what the hell?).
3) What the hell? If you mean Satan is trying to get someone into a car wreck...then of coruse God will prevail. You confuse me a lot with your lame antics.

last I checked this was America and I can try and convert you if I want. In return, of course, you could reject my proposal, but stating that won't help me. Again I don't make fun of your beliefs so stop making fun of mine. If I want to believe Christianity is the best course of life then let me, and stop getting into it.

1) And the example wasn't the best you could pick... Maybe next time you put more thought before picking ramdom examples that don't fit the picture that much.

Ease up. We don't need to force any religious stance upon others in order to achieve that 'getting along' diplomacy we're debating here (, altough straying a tad from the original issue). Obviously this goes for any side you can look from. *Meh, hints to all around*

2) I do care for others and may try to help'em without a request from their behalf as long I consider it to be a good, solid motive. If they request assistance, then I'll more than glad to help.
And that was my attempt to reverse the view angle of that situation at hand. Do you care if anyone comes and tries to dismiss your belief no matter for what unbased reason (in your opinion)? No. So, don't try it upon other as well.

3) *Grumbles* What proof do you have that was God in the 1st place to have told you to go n' save that person?



I don't give a damn if it's America, Europe, Asia, etc. This is appliable world wide (exceptions to opressive regimes). Do you know the motto sentence "my liberties end where other ppl's ones' start"? If they choosen other path, different from yours, who are you to convert'em? Do you belong to the cleric corps to go preaching or similar? I don't think so.
*Sigh* And I just hope you realized that you even contradict yourself in this same post. [Check the reply to 1) and this last paragraph I quoted.] Not that I care much about it, but if you can't even maintain the same line of reasoning in the same place how can you expect us to buy the 'converting' babble? *Meh*

Cut the "making fun" excuse (best known as strawman). Isn't one of the Christian principles (not reguarding it's sub-genres) to uphold tolerance to others? Ain't doing it (makin' fun), just singly pointing out the incongruences about your religious posture here.

1) It was a perfect example. Name one thing wrong with it.
2) You stated earlier that you didn't.
3) If you mean in religion or in my example I am not sure. In religion it clearly states in the Bible you must save people. In my example it is the right thing to do.

Again back to my example. If you care for people and don't want them to suffer you will try and save them(that was the whole point of my example though most of you couldn't figure it out ). What I was referring to was your last statement, Of course I don't mind if people try and "convert" me or tell me what they believe, but when people say I am wrong end of story it pisses me off. Am I not being tolerant of your behavior? Telling you to stop making fun of my beliefs does not mean I don't tolerate you. Yeah I don't consider that making fun of either...

Must save people? I'm no expert (and I may need to research this, too lazy to right now) but you can help people all the time. Give everything you own to charity, save a hundred people from a burning building, or w/e. You're still not gonna be going to heaven, unless you accept jesus christ as your savior, and confess all your sins.

Seems a bit stupid to throw people in Hell forever. "You stole that cookie! YOU'RE GOING TO BURN IN HELL FOREVER!" I doubt God is that uptight. Doesn't he know it all? Isn't he seeing what you're gonna do? Then why send you to hell? What's so wrong about fufilling your purpose? As much as you may depise Oswald, if Kennedy hadn't been shot, the world would've been a hell of alot different, and possibly worse.
Addition: I thought this was about Agnosticism and Atheism. Well, I am just fueling the flames of another Atheist vs Christian topic ... well ... so be it!

I think you strive off of fueling atheists v Christians, makes you minerals doesn't it(cheap cheap cheap...). Who said you would burn for stealing a cookie!? By saving people it means teaching them the Word of God, not giving them materialistic things which will corrupt them further. I don't see your point TheoreticalHuman. Or is there even one?

1) Yeah, car wrecks that eventually could happen = your religious belief is wrong... that's for sure.
2) I do care for folks but if after warned they choose not to listen, I simply don't hold that trumpcard hovering back over and over again. You do, from what I've seen here.
3) In your example "is the right thing to do". Just 'cause it's the correct thing to do it doesn't automatically imply that is connected to religion. That's all I asked.
Btw, wouldn't you mind to tell me more especifically where it says (in the Bible) for you to go 'saving' folks at your heart's contempt? Tks.



Check nr. 2 on reply paragraph above. As for the between parentheses sentence, go up and check nr. 1 here and on my above post for reasons on why it prob'ly happened.



Nice and dandy. I usually do the same here. Altough when I see it heading that way before it even occurs (aka foreseeing) I'll prob'ly end it short.
The only thing I didn't exactly grasp is in which part of the above the below quote fits...

if it's even possible that is.



Cut the strawman. We're talking about religion not behaviourism, altough you do tend to mix'em both (as seen above). True tolerance is the best way you can get your msg across without unconfortable religious pressing. Now if they want to change it's up for their minds and their minds alone, and not for you to keep nagging that your belief is the right one or similar 'junk' until they change to fit your own religious ideal.
Hence, this only comes to support, my earlier pointing out the incongruences of your religious posture according to Christian principles.



If you read the rest of that post you would realize that I mentioned before that are many religions out there that are somewhat solid in their acolyte's base. The main intent is that when I feel/want to convert to some religion, I'll head to it (amongst the diversity of' the ones that exist) and ask. In no way I want to be 'persuaded' to change my religious belief (to that certain 'righteous one') if I hadn't firmly asked for it (and I'm leaned to believe that you wouldn't like it too).
So let's please drop it here, ok?

What other "bibles" are there? I only know of one which would be the Holy Bible.


Failed ones as in those that people just randomly make up on the spot, like Alpha(MC).


1st - It's just an example he was using as to why you would coerce a belief upon someone, as he said.
But of course, we really can't coerce beliefs upon people.

2nd - it's not just strangers we're talking about, but it could be trying to convert your best friend or your parents. But if that person dismisses the belief as you said, then there's really nothing that can be done.

3rd - Maybe, maybe not


I thought that was a pretty good example, but here's probably what i would've said:

Lets say you have a son that's about to take a really important test in school. He hasn't studied and you know he's going to fail. You, as his parent/guardian, want him to make the best possible grade he can so then you would try and force him to study. You're not trying to make his life miserable, but u're just trying to help him.


Ok, but the way you were "point out the incongruences" were a bit satirical and inciting hostile fervor, making everying a bit irrational and contentious.


Save people as in their afterlifes by converting them to christians. Yes you can help people in this mundane world but he's talking about saving people from going to hell once they die.


He throws people into hell IF you don't believe in him, not if you just commit a little sin like that. Yes, he knows the future and all, he KNOWS whether you are going to accept him or not. That's why people go to hell.

And yea ur right, this thread is about agnosticism and atheism, but we've seem to gone overboard in our digression. But remember, the people of SEN are characterized by these three words:

1) Contentious
2) Garrulous
3) And most importantly, disobediant.

Methinks he's meaning to all 'holy books', such as the Al-Quran and similar sort.



Are you a foreseer (sorta fortune teller) to know it for sure? It could be a smashing hit... altough I don't believe it that much.



1st - My point exactly. Thus when he says he doesn't do that but in that example of his contradicts himself it gets sorta meaningless shortly afterwards.

2nd - I was refering to his example as you can see it for yourself in the above replies and extending it to the preaching door-to-doorstep attempts I (alas) stumble upon from time to time.

3rd - My point as well. What assurances he has that it was God/whatever told him to do so?



A lot easier to understand. I would've 'bought' it...



Maybe. But I don't think they were that fearce. Sarcasm is a good thing to learn how to tolerate. Wasn't Jesus who said "turn the other cheek"? If he knew that and tried to uphold that principle, he wouldn't act like it did.



Already replied above (post #89).

Agreed here? Methinks so.



Refer to same as exact above. *Hint, hint*



*Lmao* So true sometimes...

Indecisiveman, sarcasm is completely lost on you. Millenium, I'm just saying, it's a single event that screws you forever, and God even saw it. He could obviously change it, and since he obviously knows, why would he be angry like that? It's not a coherent argument. I'm not even sure Hell is even in the Bible. It seems to be less so true Judeo-Christian beliefs and moreso scare tactics to convert the masses. if Judaism was masde up, then 50% of Christianity is untrue, there is no God, and therefore, Jesus is not the son of anyone. That also means that the entire Old testament is false, meaning you are now free to rape, murder, and worship anything you want. Your religion is as far-fetched and unprovable as the rest. Those in glass houses should not throw stones. By the way, what other bibles? How about.. hmm... The Cat In The Hat? Bible is latin for book, nothing more.