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Eh.
Defiler has better guns than the corsair (Is it still a corsair?).

Don't wry chu, I've been doing a bug fixing rampage since then. It'll be smooth as silk when it's done.

Melee maps are very hard to make, as the same as UMS. If you compare the same quality of maps, like one of the best melee maps to one of the best UMS maps ( Rush! ) then there's a large difference in skill required still. I doubt a person like Rose.Of.Dreams(?) could just learn how to trigger and attempt a map like Rush!, but it'd be much eaiser for Tuxedo-Templar to attempt to make a melee map, since Melee maps are missing one large portion that makes up Starcraft maps. Triggers. I don't think you'd ever run into a string limit or a character limit with a melee, but you have to make sure you don't screw up so many things in a UMS. Melee maps take skill, but no, not more so then a UMS sorry to say. UMS still require a large portion of realistic terrain, so you can probably go to a UMS map maker > melee map maker, but it'd be much harder to go from melee map makers > UMS map maker.

Thnx for the link Entropy; excellent content there. I will be requesting a registration # asap to further explore some of these detailed articles.

As for the digression of this topic into comparing UMS to Melee this seems rather silly. Both are unique and in a class of their own. UMS's are getting more and more sophisticated with ever increasing complexity. Some of the triggers found here in SEN''s maps are mind boggling and the resulting maps are definitely a major part of the SC community if not just a lot of fun to play! I love them.

However UMS, despite it's complex construction, is overshadowed by Melee. How long will Starcraft reign the supreme RTS? 5 more years, 10, 20, 50?? I don't know, but Melee, and the pro community will most likely be the major reason it survives.

Thankfully we have both. Here at SEN, a very small portion of the site is dedicated to Melee. We have some very promising melee maps as well and I encourage everyone to drop by this section.

TO MELEE FORUM USERS: Unfortunately it appears there is quite a lot of friction between the 2 formats and I also encourage the Melee forum to "ease" up on Melee "newbies". This kind of trashing only further seperates us and detracts future talent.

Nvertheless, hard for ums to go to melee. Melee maps are easy to make, defined as hills, resources, starting locations. Now,
It might be easy for Tuxedo Templar to make a melee map.
NO offense, but it would take DAYS of practice for some UMS mapmaker to make some maps of the same level as some of the Original melee mappers.

I'm not saying UMS is much easier. They both require a lot of skill.
So why argue, and say which requires more skill?

I know this isn't the point of the thread, but i can't resist...

Alpha, I would have to disagree. UMS maps take patience and lots of time. You don't need skill to make a UMS map. Melee on the other hand, you need to be good at to make good melee maps. You need to understand so many things. As opposed to UMS is just... Triggering, and placing units. Its more like programming, sure its a pain in the ass, but is it hard?

And yes, I would like to see you make a melee map. Lets see if its any good.

Oh, and just answer someone's question about what a korean key board looks like.

Obviously, the english is same.
now, a button to the right of the space bar, there is a button that allows you to switch back and forth from korean and english.
basically, with the "a" button, there is also a korean symbol assigned to it. what that comes out depends on whether it is on korean or english mode.

But are there not hundreds of Korean symbols? How could that many be fit onto a regular English keyboard of 26 letters?

You guys act as if UMS has no terrain work in it at all. And that it has little or no testing in it either.

Yes, that's true. UMS does take alot of patience and time to make a good map. However, you can't say it requires no skill. You can give someone all the time in the world to make a UMS, but they won't be able to make a good map if they don't know how to.

If you really think that all you do in an UMS map is place units and trigger, then you haven't made one before. Melee, you don't even need to touch the unit settings button. If you want to make a good UMS, you're going to modify the hell out of the unit settings of each unit, then you have the issue of balancing each one, UMS does take alot of testing to make a good map. You still need to make good terrain, you can't just have flat jungle for 256x256. That's all the technical stuff, I haven't even started talking about storyline and music.

Please, before saying "OMG! TRIGGERS AND PLACING UNITS IS ALL YOU NEED IN UMS" make one, and see how hard it is.

Terrain in UMS is usually either flashy or entirely symmetrical. Or it will just be randomly scattered because the terrain does not matter but a natural feel wants to be added. In most RPG's, terrain is added solely for looks, and never for actual strategic purposes. In such cases, it is merely the time consumption that makes a "pro terrainer." The same is never so for a melee map.

UMS also generally doesn't require much testing. You know that triggers will work, but you can never tell in advance whether a bit of terrain might allow marines to fire down from it into an enemy's mining, or something of that nature, where another player might not have that slim advantage. Missing certain things like this lead to the cannon rush in a commonly played ladder map whose name I can't recall.

This having been my first post in the discussion, I'll say that I'm of the opinion that UMS mapmaking require much more creativity and hard work to succeed, but melee mapmaking takes a great deal of ingenuity and certainly originality.

The korean keyboard has only 26 symbols.
a certain half of them (let's call them group A), can have double of them and count as one character.
The other half (group B), can be combined with the other symbols of the group B to form one character.

See, korean, isn't like english where you have one letter = one character, it has 2 or three combined.

most koreans never heard of proedit methinks
they mostly use guedit

actually they seem not to know about most of the tricks, or at least started to use them much later then they were introduced
extended ramps/bridges were introduced in their maps just recently

Ive never seen a map with more than 1 level of ramps (hmm, you know, like a ramp on higher ground)
they seem not to know about the player12 trick which allows to place buildings on melee maps and the trick with placing sprites


I think it's the language barrier, they just seem not to know English (ok, I ve played with lots of koreans on bnet and only around 10 were able to communicate with me)





http://pwl.pl/pojrej.html
I think this script generates the number, you need to put a date, then a number beginning with 1 or 2 and random numbers. Unfortunately it crashes my IE, so Im not sure if it works





they think that the fact that they have progamers makes them better.
they probably hate americans, but seem to forget that people from other countries use English to communicate too. Wgtour/pgtour have korean forums/translations.
Most Korean websites dont even bother to make an English forum/website (not to mention other languages...)




they never heard of ip-bans?
you can generate the numbers, there was a program which could do it
still, it's quite unfair, nonkorean services allow people from other countries to join, they even provide korean translation or forums



I think koreans use hangul which is something like the alphabet, each sybol is made of 3 parts (syllables?). You just need to learn the sylabbles to be able to write anything you want (not sure if they use Chinese symbols and how they write it). As far as I know you can learn Korean 'alphabet' in few hours (not like Chinese/Japanese where you learn symbols by heart)

I meant:
As opposed to UMS is just... Triggering, and EDITING units.

Hmmm, I didnt say "OMG! TRIGGERS AND PLACING UNITS IS ALL YOU NEED IN UMS" BTW.

I have made 3 decent melee maps, and 2 did not require changing unit settings. And for my other map, the unit settings was simple. I made most of the enemy units have 10-15 hp, gradually working up to about 50 as you upgraded. I only had to edit about 20 units. It wasnt very hard. I think the only part of UMS that requires skill is the unit settings. Just so you know how balanced itll make gameplay.

Triggers on the other hand, do not require skill. You just need to know what does what.

This just is my personal preference, saying melee takes more skill than UMS. I never said it was harder, or takes longer. Because that, I know, is not true.

uh... why would a melee map need protection anyways?... would it even matter if they changed colors cause melee settings will erase all that and go with only the melee settings. And Korean letters can fit up to 4 simbols combined, in such cases.

usually I would say koreans don't know about IP bans... but their way of using computer, they have tons of pc rooms in their city, and if they get IP banned, simple, just use another comp in that room. Walaa, different IP, also unbanned too... and if he's shitlisted he can easily change his id. He could do that for hours.\

You can't generate numbers in Social Security number, its connected to a government database, but isolated with firewalls so no one else can read it.

and for third time, do english sites have korean translations? i don't think so.

Korean is a little more complicated than you think, theres actually set of symbols, some may require shift to write it. Some korean symbol fits into 2 pieces, and another set of symbol might fit into 3 pieces, and things get even more complicated later on...... its somehow connected to Chinese Zodiac and etc... too complicated... lucky me that i don't live in korea anymore and worry about that dumb shit.

I don't care anymore. You guys can just keep saying mapping terrain is harder than putting together locations, sounds, and sometimes 1000+ triggers. I've been reading the forums a lot, and I can barely recall many people having the balls to admit that they're wrong on something. So, what's the point? ya know? We're not gonna get anywhere with this. I say drop the topic, and let us just focuc on the main topic of this thread.

First of all, Everything below has nothing more than reply. NO Offense.

nope. we usually use MSP(created by me ;p) or SF protection. Proedit doesn't seem to work in Korean Windows platforms. i've already asked Clokr_ about 1 years ago but he didn't know why. Only newbies use guedit these days.

Yes, most of gamers don't like time-killing jobs. but since i wrote some lectures on mapside about 2 years ago, they had been getting involved in ... uh.. 'tricks'. (and DK was a bit faster than them. He is a genius. everyone would know that)

Have you ever thought about altitude problems?

Most of well-designed maps are for a certain league or anything needs equity. If there's P12 Medic or scv in center of the map and someone mindcontrol that unit, is it equal to zerg player? (huh? please excuse my broken english as i'm only 18 years old)

Hmm. i agree that. Difference between Korean and English is so huge. (..-_-?) but why don't you learn Korean instead waiting them learn English for you?

??? Are you racist? Everything happened from language barrier. No more than it. You wrote it about 15 seconds before. isn't it? They aren't that stupid as you think. They are smart enough to fake IP addresses so ip-ban is useless. Then, Is there Korean translations in SEN? -_-? Considering every Languages is waste of efforts.

that's true but illegal.

oh, really? Where?


Yes. Hangeul is well-made phonetic symbol. And they(we) usually apply chinese symbols in Hangeul like 'dejavu' word's usage in english. So they(we) don't have to learn chinese from bottom to top.
[right][snapback]194353[/snapback][/right]

^^

doesn't SF protection screw the minimap and cause occasional crashes?

I can understand pro leagues not using tricks that may cause crashes in 0.01% of games cause thet would be quite bad... also youa re right alot of the terrain editing screws with the heightmap whic would cause nfair situations in a melee.

I could display a heightmap if anyone found it useful in scmdraft, however I dont know how many mapmakers there use scmdraft as opposed to staredit.

edit: disabled smilies

Huh? you finally decrypted my stupid language? thanks! Yes it does(happens occasionally but is very critical). So my MSP became so popular! (but stopped support these days)
and that height data would be great only if that doesn't hurt my eyes with full of lime-colored letters.

(btw i want to know relations between minimap colors and map tiles. or the way to extract cv4 files into my own application. Could you help me please?)

[QUOTE=ChaoticS,Apr 24 2005, 07:42 PM]
uh... why would a melee map need protection anyways?... would it even matter if they changed colors cause melee settings will erase all that and go with only the melee settings. And Korean letters can fit up to 4 simbols combined, in such cases.
[/QUOTE]

you see, melee maps can be rigged in many ways, also a lot of newbie map makers try to "improve" the maps and make them really imbalanced
think about lost temple, there are probably few thousands of versions
and even a slight change of the mineral formation can affect: a)mining speed
b)make it possible/impossible to lurker/tank drop etc/pylon wall and so on
same goes to changing the layout of the maps


[QUOTE]usually I would say koreans don't know about IP bans... but their way of using computer, they have tons of pc rooms in their city, and if they get IP banned, simple, just use another comp in that room. Walaa, different IP, also unbanned too... and if he's shitlisted he can easily change his id. He could do that for hours.\[/QUOTE]

that's a good point
still, after few bans someone would got bored, in bigger cities there are lots of internet cafes too and people seem not to do such things

[QUOTE]You can't generate numbers in Social Security number, its connected to a government database, but isolated with firewalls so no one else can read it[/QUOTE]

I think you can. I just generated one for test purposes.
Actually I think that the game-i server required such a number and a lot of people played there..

[QUOTE]and for third time, do english sites have korean translations? i don't think so.[/QUOTE]

check www.wgtour.com or www.pgtour.com both websites have either translations or at least forums (btw wgtour is a belgian website)
still some websites are done in such way, that you can use babelfish. Ive tried using babelfish on that website with maps (mapdal? mapdom?) and it didnt work very well :/


[QUOTE=SI,Apr 25 2005, 06:06 AM]


doesn't SF protection screw the minimap and cause occasional crashes?[/QUOTE]

I think not. I mean when it causes crashes it would be easily spotted, because it makes the game crash quite often (and progamers practise a lot, so they would see that). Still pros could play on unprotected maps on tv. Maps are protected for public players (they not only rig/"improve" maps, but also change the map titles to create fake replays and send them to ladder admins)






[QUOTE=sarami,Apr 25 2005, 03:46 AM]
First of all, Everything below has nothing more than reply. NO Offense.

nope. we usually use MSP(created by me ;p) or SF protection. Proedit doesn't seem to work in Korean Windows platforms. i've already asked Clokr_ about 1 years ago but he didn't know why. Only newbies use guedit these days.[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]

why didnt you make an english version of your protector (maybe you did, not sure, never heard of it)
did you notice that Clokr_ is Spanish, but his editor can be used by anyone (most people in the world learn English to communicate... maybe not in France, Korea and Zimbabwe)
you seem to be pretty racist, you hate everyone who speaks English (dunno, you seem not to like Americans), still this language is used by much more people...


[QUOTE]Have you ever thought about altitude problems? [/QUOTE]

nope

[QUOTE]Most of well-designed maps are for a certain league or anything needs equity. If there's P12 Medic or scv in center of the map and someone mindcontrol that unit, is it equal to zerg player? (huh? please excuse my broken english as i'm only 18 years old)[/QUOTE]

still, you could: place a depot instead of an mineral formation (island map expos, like coulee for example), or place a command center at a choke point behind main(blade storm style) - so a zerg player can choose between destroying the building or infesting it
you could even make a map with torrasques or other heroes, so protoss could consider getting mind control, and players of other races would try to kill the heroes (Im not talking about placing 50 torrasques, just 1,2 or 3)

-this are some of my basic concepts, I would try them, but I don't have any time


heh, well I can communicate with you, you don't need to apologize. Still you are far better than most Koreans I ever met on battle.net :/ That's the problem.
I'm not an English master too, but I think others can understand me and I understand them.

[QUOTE]Hmm. i agree that. Difference between Korean and English is so huge. (..-_-?) but why don't you learn Korean instead waiting them learn English for you?[/QUOTE]

because I allready learned English? you seem to count every English speaker as an American...
I can answer your question with a question too, what languages did you learn?
(you don't need to answer, I hope you get the point)

I'm learning English (I think I'm doing quite well) and German (not too good, can communicate on basic level, read forums with a help of a dictionary, still understanding german slang is hard)

[QUOTE]??? Are you racist? Everything happened from language barrier. No more than it. You wrote it about 15 seconds before. isn't it? They aren't that stupid as you think. They are smart enough to fake IP addresses so ip-ban is useless. Then, Is there Korean translations in SEN? -_-? Considering every Languages is waste of efforts.[/QUOTE]

well, actually you are racist, because you told me to learn Korean. I allready spent a lot of time learning English, so I could ask what languages did you learn (no offense, maybe you learn Chinese at school as a primary language and English is obligatory or something like that)

I gave you two examples of big websites with korean forum/translation. I wonder why didn't the zealot server (for example) have a similar thing? Koreans flooded the neogamei and pgtour servers and demanded Korean versions, but when someone says that mapdori should allow nonkoreans to register we hear that we should "learn Korean" (you could just make an "download" button)

[QUOTE]that's true but illegal.[/QUOTE]

sorry I don't understand you


[QUOTE]oh, really? Where?[/QUOTE]

I gave you links
I think SEN admins would allow someone to translate the forums too (they don;t know Korean, a Korean has to come and translate the stuff, I think translating the template wouldnt be such a problem), still as you can see a lot of people which dont come from English speaking countries post here, so Koreans could learn English too, instead of the racist "you go and learn korean". as I said before many people here learned English

and of course you could say that someone could make a korean->english translations, but no offence, probably only Koreans speak Korean. Like I could make a translation, but only from English etc



have you ever played neogamei or pgtour servers? people from all over the world play there and (at least try to) communicate in English. But Koreans talk in Korean (we see it as question marks, it's cool to see a channel flooded with ??????? ?????? ????????^_^). Let me guess, you will tell me to install Korean font. What for? I still won't understand anything.


EDIT: quotes don't work T_T

whats wrong with green? I was thinking of blue shades actually like locations but text based output also works -_-

depends, I can send you the tileset specs and when you manage to load them I can explain how to get the minimap colors, atm I dont have time to explain everything tho.

Incase there are ANY racists reading this, I want to formally point out that they are more than welcome to suck my .

... amazing how much this topic changed. I'm betting Entropy isn't pleased

first, map dori, ==> melee vs Ums ==> Which is harder ==> racisim ==> programs... ==> something I don't get.

Im seeing lots of talk about which map is harder to make: Melee or UMS.

Both require very different skills. "Inventive" people would be better at making UMS maps, "Artistic" people would be better at making melee maps.

For me, i find melee maps harder

Its quite true... the Lost Temple is meant to be that way. Mineral formations are supposed to be that way, they seem very unnatural when settled, the game doesn't allow you to make a building very close to a mineral patch, and someone alternates that to make it closer. I consider that a cheater, a whore and a lousy person without a , if they even considered him or herself as a male.
I get the point, but flaming random channels that you don't know... is fun, and yes they do know about IP-ban, and they use faster-internet than americans use.
If you see their crap, its red in USEast just cause they are just too far away, and if you enter Asia, its still red cause your faraway from them. You'll find satellite faster like that...
UMS and Melee maps take different skill. If you have both skills, maybe you can create a fantastic melee based campaign, using such skillz with Ai. Melee maps are mostly with the skill of a basic layout of stratagic terrain, then maybe you add a few decoration... mineral patches ( measured of course ) and hope that your map isn't hacked. ( cause thats just plain lame and dumb, which are useless and newb. ) assuming that map is for melee purposes... and for UMS, whatever... creativity, trigger skills, and shit. 1000+ seems hard, its just time consuming, it may not be hard if you know it alot... It SEEMs hard cause it takes A LONG FECKEN TIME!

and there are more than enough korean ppl that can speak english than you can think of... ( just that most newcomer koreans seem retarded... )

Story...
Some Idiotic Tall Gross Korean Kid I hate so much about: * scratchez its back and all over his body *
Some Idiotic Tall Gross Korean Kid I hate so much about: * he goes around the classroom and doing idiotic things? that you don't even wanna know about *
Teacher: Sit down you..
Some Idiotic Tall Gross Korean Kid I hate so much about: * five minutes later, he starts doing it again *
Some Idiotic Tall Gross Korean Kid I hate so much about: * he goes around doing idiotic shit that are annoying *
Some Idiotic Tall Gross Korean Kid I hate so much about: * gets caught and blames me of doing *
Me: your a idiot... -_-