Report, edit, etc...Posted by Deathknight on 2005-07-22 at 11:41:33
Gaining three zealots will take longer. Those SCVs repairing the bunker would also prevent it from "dying".
The amount of HP a unit or series of units has does not determine the victor.
The amount of HP a unit or series of units has does not determine the victor.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mini Moose 2707 on 2005-07-22 at 13:01:20
Would you like to play some TvP on a chokeless map Deathknight? 
Report, edit, etc...Posted by wesmic da pimp on 2005-07-22 at 13:03:04
Just keep sending a few zealots, they'll have to either get more bunker(s) or keep having 4-5 scv's healing the bunker, by that time, a halfway decent player would have goons, then it's over.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by AqoTrooper on 2005-07-22 at 15:42:41
QUOTE(wesmic da pimp @ Jul 22 2005, 08:03 PM)
Just keep sending a few zealots, they'll have to either get more bunker(s) or keep having 4-5 scv's healing the bunker, by that time, a halfway decent player would have goons, then it's over.
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If the bunkers are in the base, the SCVs won't have to always be near the bunkers (or in other words they will be by default) and by the time the Protoss player who spent all his money on dead Zealots will get goons the Terran will already have Vultures if not Tanks.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Grouty on 2005-07-22 at 19:09:38
moose can you please post who has registered to play soon or atleast send pms to everyone who is registered
Report, edit, etc...Posted by wesmic da pimp on 2005-07-22 at 19:44:53
QUOTE(AqoTrooper @ Jul 22 2005, 02:42 PM)
If the bunkers are in the base, the SCVs won't have to always be near the bunkers (or in other words they will be by default) and by the time the Protoss player who spent all his money on dead Zealots will get goons the Terran will already have Vultures if not Tanks.
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Protoss can get goons faster than terran can tanks, if there's 4-5 scv's out there reapairing bunkers and doing stuff other than mining, not only will you lose minerals from repairing bunkers, but you also won't be gaining any from the SCV's not working, by the time you
around with this, turtle yourself into a clusterfest, and get a factory and a shop, the protoss should already have double-gateway pumping goons and possibly goon range already.Report, edit, etc...Posted by Chef on 2005-07-22 at 19:50:22
Not to mention he could kill SCVs while they tried to repair the bunker, a huge loss in the early game (considering he loses next to nothing).
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mini Moose 2707 on 2005-07-22 at 20:59:42
If there's no choke, why would you even attack the Bunkers? Just walk right past them and kill off his mining force. Unless he completely clusters himself, a Bunker or two won't protect his mining and his other buildings.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Chef on 2005-07-22 at 21:10:13
I was refering to DK's example.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by iamandragon on 2005-07-23 at 09:31:05
Guys, stop arguing! Both of you got a point.
First, deathknight, getting 3 zealots are NOT hard at all, and if you zealot rush, you will be having 2, 3, or in some more extreme cases, 4 gateways all pumping zealots non-stop.
For a case without bunkers:
Marines need a greater mass to counter zealots, approximately 2.5 marines per zealot, and 2 mainres take shorter than 1 zealot to produce(I think). In theory, 2 marines with perfect micro can beat 1 zealot. However when the mass gets bigger and bigger you will not be able to react fast enough 'cause when zealots charge at marine they only have to do 2 thing: move beyond marine and attack-move when close to. For marines they have to: spread out in X directoins(where X is 2 times the amount of zealots), focus fire, select marines zealots are heading in, spread in X/2 directions. It's two times the actions you'll need to do. 4 clicks per seconds are okay but 12 clicks per seconds I'll end up in hospital.
For a case with bunkers:
You'll need 3 SCV to repair a bunker for ever 2 zealot attacking in order to keep it alive. In early game protoss come with 4 zealots, see your bunker and wait for reinforcements. After you get 6 more SCV he comes in with 3/4/6 zealots(3 if he's getting dragoons, 4 if he's not, and 6 if he got extra gateway) That's a total of 7~10 zealots, which means you'll need 15 SCV repairing the bunker. IN THEORY, you can do that because you should have some SCV, however SCV can't stack when repairing bunkers, so a protoss simply need to gang on your bunker, and use the 2 zealots on either side of the semi-circle to kill SCV trying to surround the bunker. I...don't want to continue this tragedy, it gives me shivers.
For a case with SCV and marine micro:
My dream: Hide your marines inside your SCV mining. And if zealtos try engage your marine your SCV can attack all of a sudden, and using the pushing effect to gang on the zealot while it can't attack because it's over a SCV.
What really happened: The zealots ignored my SCV and killed my Comand Center...
Also...don't listen to what blizzard says in their strategy guide...they never bother to update it. What we see there is some strategies 5 years ago(players in the year of 1999 use 2 barraks + bunker against protoss and proceed to use bunker leap frog with siege tanks and wraiths). As time passes strategies have been modified, improved and perfected. I THINK the protoss who invented zealot rush in 2001 is Pusan, but I'm not sure, and the SAME year Terran player SlayerS_BoxeR used heavy metal (Tank + Goliath, which soon changed into Tank+Vulture) which countered Pusan's zealot rush. I'm not sure about the names, I THINK it's them. Go research them yourselves if you're interested.
Geez, seems I've typed a lot.
Moose I agree with Grouty, pls post a list of players who're are actually participating in the match. Also it'll be great for us players to be persona lmessaged who we're up against next. If you want I can help contacting players. Just say a word and I'll be help.
First, deathknight, getting 3 zealots are NOT hard at all, and if you zealot rush, you will be having 2, 3, or in some more extreme cases, 4 gateways all pumping zealots non-stop.
For a case without bunkers:
Marines need a greater mass to counter zealots, approximately 2.5 marines per zealot, and 2 mainres take shorter than 1 zealot to produce(I think). In theory, 2 marines with perfect micro can beat 1 zealot. However when the mass gets bigger and bigger you will not be able to react fast enough 'cause when zealots charge at marine they only have to do 2 thing: move beyond marine and attack-move when close to. For marines they have to: spread out in X directoins(where X is 2 times the amount of zealots), focus fire, select marines zealots are heading in, spread in X/2 directions. It's two times the actions you'll need to do. 4 clicks per seconds are okay but 12 clicks per seconds I'll end up in hospital.
For a case with bunkers:
You'll need 3 SCV to repair a bunker for ever 2 zealot attacking in order to keep it alive. In early game protoss come with 4 zealots, see your bunker and wait for reinforcements. After you get 6 more SCV he comes in with 3/4/6 zealots(3 if he's getting dragoons, 4 if he's not, and 6 if he got extra gateway) That's a total of 7~10 zealots, which means you'll need 15 SCV repairing the bunker. IN THEORY, you can do that because you should have some SCV, however SCV can't stack when repairing bunkers, so a protoss simply need to gang on your bunker, and use the 2 zealots on either side of the semi-circle to kill SCV trying to surround the bunker. I...don't want to continue this tragedy, it gives me shivers.
For a case with SCV and marine micro:
My dream: Hide your marines inside your SCV mining. And if zealtos try engage your marine your SCV can attack all of a sudden, and using the pushing effect to gang on the zealot while it can't attack because it's over a SCV.
What really happened: The zealots ignored my SCV and killed my Comand Center...
Also...don't listen to what blizzard says in their strategy guide...they never bother to update it. What we see there is some strategies 5 years ago(players in the year of 1999 use 2 barraks + bunker against protoss and proceed to use bunker leap frog with siege tanks and wraiths). As time passes strategies have been modified, improved and perfected. I THINK the protoss who invented zealot rush in 2001 is Pusan, but I'm not sure, and the SAME year Terran player SlayerS_BoxeR used heavy metal (Tank + Goliath, which soon changed into Tank+Vulture) which countered Pusan's zealot rush. I'm not sure about the names, I THINK it's them. Go research them yourselves if you're interested.
Geez, seems I've typed a lot.
Moose I agree with Grouty, pls post a list of players who're are actually participating in the match. Also it'll be great for us players to be persona lmessaged who we're up against next. If you want I can help contacting players. Just say a word and I'll be help.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mini Moose 2707 on 2005-07-23 at 12:11:10
The bracket kinda gets randomized, so I can't really know who is playing who at this point. I will edit the first post with a list of participants though.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by FaZ- on 2005-07-23 at 13:00:07
QUOTE(iamandragon @ Jul 23 2005, 08:31 AM)
Also...don't listen to what blizzard says in their strategy guide...they never bother to update it. What we see there is some strategies 5 years ago(players in the year of 1999 use 2 barraks + bunker against protoss and proceed to use bunker leap frog with siege tanks and wraiths). As time passes strategies have been modified, improved and perfected. I THINK the protoss who invented zealot rush in 2001 is Pusan, but I'm not sure, and the SAME year Terran player SlayerS_BoxeR used heavy metal (Tank + Goliath, which soon changed into Tank+Vulture) which countered Pusan's zealot rush. I'm not sure about the names, I THINK it's them. Go research them yourselves if you're interested.
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"Invented a zealot rush? Please. The first time I played Protoss I rushed zealots, and that was long before 2001. He may have found a more suitable build order, but that's not much to credit any one player with such a "discovery". I'm not sure what kind of a rush Pusan invented where it can be countered at the stage where the Terran player can already get tanks. That's about 3 minutes after when you need to have rushed, depending on the map. The map we were arguing anyway, the Bases were right next to each other with no mineral cover from the obvious rush route. Zealots would dominate, and any average Protoss player can show you that on that map.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by wesmic da pimp on 2005-07-23 at 13:29:26
QUOTE(iamandragon @ Jul 23 2005, 08:31 AM)
Guys, stop arguing! Both of you got a point.
First, deathknight, getting 3 zealots are NOT hard at all, and if you zealot rush, you will be having 2, 3, or in some more extreme cases, 4 gateways all pumping zealots non-stop.
For a case without bunkers:
Marines need a greater mass to counter zealots, approximately 2.5 marines per zealot, and 2 mainres take shorter than 1 zealot to produce(I think). In theory, 2 marines with perfect micro can beat 1 zealot. However when the mass gets bigger and bigger you will not be able to react fast enough 'cause when zealots charge at marine they only have to do 2 thing: move beyond marine and attack-move when close to. For marines they have to: spread out in X directoins(where X is 2 times the amount of zealots), focus fire, select marines zealots are heading in, spread in X/2 directions. It's two times the actions you'll need to do. 4 clicks per seconds are okay but 12 clicks per seconds I'll end up in hospital.
For a case with bunkers:
You'll need 3 SCV to repair a bunker for ever 2 zealot attacking in order to keep it alive. In early game protoss come with 4 zealots, see your bunker and wait for reinforcements. After you get 6 more SCV he comes in with 3/4/6 zealots(3 if he's getting dragoons, 4 if he's not, and 6 if he got extra gateway) That's a total of 7~10 zealots, which means you'll need 15 SCV repairing the bunker. IN THEORY, you can do that because you should have some SCV, however SCV can't stack when repairing bunkers, so a protoss simply need to gang on your bunker, and use the 2 zealots on either side of the semi-circle to kill SCV trying to surround the bunker. I...don't want to continue this tragedy, it gives me shivers.
For a case with SCV and marine micro:
My dream: Hide your marines inside your SCV mining. And if zealtos try engage your marine your SCV can attack all of a sudden, and using the pushing effect to gang on the zealot while it can't attack because it's over a SCV.
What really happened: The zealots ignored my SCV and killed my Comand Center...
Also...don't listen to what blizzard says in their strategy guide...they never bother to update it. What we see there is some strategies 5 years ago(players in the year of 1999 use 2 barraks + bunker against protoss and proceed to use bunker leap frog with siege tanks and wraiths). As time passes strategies have been modified, improved and perfected. I THINK the protoss who invented zealot rush in 2001 is Pusan, but I'm not sure, and the SAME year Terran player SlayerS_BoxeR used heavy metal (Tank + Goliath, which soon changed into Tank+Vulture) which countered Pusan's zealot rush. I'm not sure about the names, I THINK it's them. Go research them yourselves if you're interested.
Geez, seems I've typed a lot.
Moose I agree with Grouty, pls post a list of players who're are actually participating in the match. Also it'll be great for us players to be persona lmessaged who we're up against next. If you want I can help contacting players. Just say a word and I'll be help.
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First, deathknight, getting 3 zealots are NOT hard at all, and if you zealot rush, you will be having 2, 3, or in some more extreme cases, 4 gateways all pumping zealots non-stop.
For a case without bunkers:
Marines need a greater mass to counter zealots, approximately 2.5 marines per zealot, and 2 mainres take shorter than 1 zealot to produce(I think). In theory, 2 marines with perfect micro can beat 1 zealot. However when the mass gets bigger and bigger you will not be able to react fast enough 'cause when zealots charge at marine they only have to do 2 thing: move beyond marine and attack-move when close to. For marines they have to: spread out in X directoins(where X is 2 times the amount of zealots), focus fire, select marines zealots are heading in, spread in X/2 directions. It's two times the actions you'll need to do. 4 clicks per seconds are okay but 12 clicks per seconds I'll end up in hospital.
For a case with bunkers:
You'll need 3 SCV to repair a bunker for ever 2 zealot attacking in order to keep it alive. In early game protoss come with 4 zealots, see your bunker and wait for reinforcements. After you get 6 more SCV he comes in with 3/4/6 zealots(3 if he's getting dragoons, 4 if he's not, and 6 if he got extra gateway) That's a total of 7~10 zealots, which means you'll need 15 SCV repairing the bunker. IN THEORY, you can do that because you should have some SCV, however SCV can't stack when repairing bunkers, so a protoss simply need to gang on your bunker, and use the 2 zealots on either side of the semi-circle to kill SCV trying to surround the bunker. I...don't want to continue this tragedy, it gives me shivers.
For a case with SCV and marine micro:
My dream: Hide your marines inside your SCV mining. And if zealtos try engage your marine your SCV can attack all of a sudden, and using the pushing effect to gang on the zealot while it can't attack because it's over a SCV.
What really happened: The zealots ignored my SCV and killed my Comand Center...
Also...don't listen to what blizzard says in their strategy guide...they never bother to update it. What we see there is some strategies 5 years ago(players in the year of 1999 use 2 barraks + bunker against protoss and proceed to use bunker leap frog with siege tanks and wraiths). As time passes strategies have been modified, improved and perfected. I THINK the protoss who invented zealot rush in 2001 is Pusan, but I'm not sure, and the SAME year Terran player SlayerS_BoxeR used heavy metal (Tank + Goliath, which soon changed into Tank+Vulture) which countered Pusan's zealot rush. I'm not sure about the names, I THINK it's them. Go research them yourselves if you're interested.
Geez, seems I've typed a lot.
Moose I agree with Grouty, pls post a list of players who're are actually participating in the match. Also it'll be great for us players to be persona lmessaged who we're up against next. If you want I can help contacting players. Just say a word and I'll be help.
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God I hope I get to play this guy in the first round.........
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Grouty on 2005-07-23 at 14:21:09
he may sound stupid but hes pretty good wesmic so watch urself~
Report, edit, etc...Posted by pekkel_the_duck on 2005-07-23 at 18:02:32
QUOTE(FaZ- @ Jul 23 2005, 10:00 AM)
"Invented a zealot rush? Please. The first time I played Protoss I rushed zealots, and that was long before 2001. He may have found a more suitable build order, but that's not much to credit any one player with such a "discovery". I'm not sure what kind of a rush Pusan invented where it can be countered at the stage where the Terran player can already get tanks. That's about 3 minutes after when you need to have rushed, depending on the map. The map we were arguing anyway, the Bases were right next to each other with no mineral cover from the obvious rush route. Zealots would dominate, and any average Protoss player can show you that on that map.
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I think he meant make them popular and standard for most PvT games. Nowadays, most Terrans go heavy metal against Protoss, but there are exceptions.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Deathknight on 2005-07-23 at 18:16:54
Ok so now when the "protoss have four gateways" and is pumping out zealots, the terran player only has one bunker and four marines? No.
That's not an invention.
QUOTE
who invented zealot rush in 2001
That's not an invention.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by wesmic da pimp on 2005-07-23 at 19:10:05
Deathknight, don't listen to him, he's clueless, however, Terran will have to turtle themselves up really tight to survive a zealot rush, even with the help of bunkers, and the protoss would have goons before the terran would have tanks (protoss goes gateway -> cyber core, terran goes barracks -> factory -> machine shop) goons own vultures, so the only real way I see terran surviving this would be to go M&M, which is so simply killed by storm. Even if the terran went M&M to mech, the protoss would have the initial goons and mabye zealots which could take care of vults or tanks, the storm taking care of M&M, anyway you look at it, a chokeless map is very beneficial to P and Z vs T.
Zerg will work almost the same way, except bunks can pretty easily survive zerglings. Therefore, the zerg can get the initial zergling rush (let's say... 8 or 9 pool it), that would be a very solid rush, the only way T could survive is if they went barracks before depot (remember, you need completed barracks to get bunker). Once again, the T will have to turtle like all hell, now the zerg starts to get hydralisks/lair. Hydralisks with range can outrange a bunker if I'm correct. The terran will more than likely go M&M, as that is the most viable and quickest strat vs. zerg. The zerg can keep sending the hydras to the outside of terrans base, get lurkers, blam, that would more than likely be the end.
Zerg will work almost the same way, except bunks can pretty easily survive zerglings. Therefore, the zerg can get the initial zergling rush (let's say... 8 or 9 pool it), that would be a very solid rush, the only way T could survive is if they went barracks before depot (remember, you need completed barracks to get bunker). Once again, the T will have to turtle like all hell, now the zerg starts to get hydralisks/lair. Hydralisks with range can outrange a bunker if I'm correct. The terran will more than likely go M&M, as that is the most viable and quickest strat vs. zerg. The zerg can keep sending the hydras to the outside of terrans base, get lurkers, blam, that would more than likely be the end.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Grouty on 2005-07-23 at 23:13:16
if i may make a suggestion we should make the rounds best of 3games instead of winner advances loser is out(anyone can get lucky) and then have the finals best of 5
Report, edit, etc...Posted by pekkel_the_duck on 2005-07-24 at 01:29:02
Here are my map entries, Darkrose of Sorrows and Haven. Both are obs version.
Edit: Switched to updated version of Darkrose of Sorrows( mostly just small doodad stuff).
Edit: Added new ver. of DROS, missing a min patch in one spot. Sorry for inconvenience.
Edit: Switched to updated version of Darkrose of Sorrows( mostly just small doodad stuff).
Edit: Added new ver. of DROS, missing a min patch in one spot. Sorry for inconvenience.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Valug on 2005-07-24 at 01:54:58
Anyone feel like spotting me some minerals so I can enter?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by iamandragon on 2005-07-24 at 02:18:45
No, standard zealot rushes are far slower than that guy's version. He delayed his probes twice to setup his gateways, and his rush is approximately(RUMORS!) 2 minutes faster than the older version. Ya I shouldn't say invented, it should be improved. (call this poor language skills, english is my 3rd language so I apologize for all the confusions I raised)
Grouty, I'm not that really good. The reason I can win is because I'm being silly and no one managed to predict what I do and got surprised and lost. Last game we played if you just switch to guardians you would eat me up bad as you can 'cause I've maxed with zealots and 2 nifty arbiters. (now you REGRETT surrendering! haha!)
Valuge you have 16 minerals, unlike me, I have NEGATIVE minerals.
Bad eh? T_T
Grouty, I'm not that really good. The reason I can win is because I'm being silly and no one managed to predict what I do and got surprised and lost. Last game we played if you just switch to guardians you would eat me up bad as you can 'cause I've maxed with zealots and 2 nifty arbiters. (now you REGRETT surrendering! haha!)
Valuge you have 16 minerals, unlike me, I have NEGATIVE minerals.
Bad eh? T_T
Report, edit, etc...Posted by AqoTrooper on 2005-07-24 at 03:36:58
Sent some money for both of you; I'm not good in math so I just sent 40ea.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by PsykoticNin on 2005-07-24 at 03:54:43
Can someone sponsor me? If so count me in, I won't dissapoint! 
Edit: Wait a second. I have enough minerals I think. Anyways count me in as a player for this tourney, thanks. By the way how do I give you my minerals? Or is it you just subtract it automatically?
Edit: Wait a second. I have enough minerals I think. Anyways count me in as a player for this tourney, thanks. By the way how do I give you my minerals? Or is it you just subtract it automatically?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Valug on 2005-07-24 at 12:18:32
Thanks for the minerals AqoTrooper.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by AqoTrooper on 2005-07-24 at 15:45:05
QUOTE(Valug @ Jul 24 2005, 07:18 PM)
Thanks for the minerals AqoTrooper.
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No problem, I like to help when I can.
Now, IP, are we allowed to post more than three maps for the tournament if only three maps (or less) out of all those we've posted will be used?