Staredit Network

As long as I don't get stoned to death
OK about movement Fair enough... As for IScript indexes, ok. I was thinking about other crazy scripters as I don't have a problem adjusting the list files

GL with the GRPEditor

SF: doublechecked since I wasn't happy with just guessing and you were right. Might be a leftover from the beta but you never know. And I was curious, apart from the Gol and Tank, which other units have the turret init header ? I didn't seem to find another.

You know you can change it yourself just do this:
Open the folder DatEdit is in.
Open the folder Data.
Open Animations.txt
Edit your heart out! Just make sure you have the same amount of items as before and the last one is no animation

I edited the file and put this instead:
Initial
Death
Ground Attack - Initial
Air Attack - Initial
Special Ability Animation 1
Ground Attack - Repeat
Air Attack - Repeat
Special Ability Animation 2
Return to Idle from Ground Attack
Return to Idle from Air Attack
Special Ability Animation 3
Walking
Return to Idle from Walking
Other Animation /Special State 1
Burrowed /Special State 2
Building Construction
Building Complete
Landing
Lift-Off
Is Working
Working To Idle
Warp In
Unused3
Sub Unit Init
Disabled
Burrow
UnBurrow
Enabled
No Animation

I know I can... so far I changed a few things I needed but I told him to do it so that others could have it too


speaking of which... is it just me or does the iscript assignment never get used ?
I tried to set SpecialState2 in orders that didn't have it as well as tried using it for orders that did have it and I don't think it was ever called...

Oh BTW, about the label... I think Blizzard used a label cos I assume the orderlist when they made it only had indexes and not names like DatEd. Although I saw weirder things so...

In fact I would welcome an updated list of the Iscript animations, but you need to to give me a 100% certain one, no guesses, no luck-shots. Agree on one first, and then I'll put it in

EDIT:Nevermind it, I just took the list from IceCC v1.3.

ADDITION:
Hmm...having investigated into the "Shadow Turns" property, I realized that it doesn't refer to shadow at all! As Nomad said, it is responsible for direct selection using a mouse. If you disable it, the sprite does not have the twirling selection graphics, and nor can it be targeted using a mouse (e.g. you can't click Attack, and then target it). Pretty weird, can someone look into it as well, so we can get confirmation on this?

It's funny, as it shows of the images.dat flags only one turned out to be properly labeled

In the Weapons tab, the factor can be either 1 or 2 (I assume 0 is accepted for Swarm, DWeb etc. although not used... but as I said, I guess if someone was to make a mod and properly reference everything, 0 might be accepted, me thinks).

So I was thinking of 2 possibilities here:

1. You make a pull-down menu displaying something similar to palettes:


... or something like that... Oh and about the "Max Hits" hint: "Changing it only effects the value displayed in StarEdit." I think you meant "affects"

As for "Shadow Turns", maybe a new name like "Selectable" or something like that. Although I won't lie, I didn't test if the hint is accurate, I just saw it is related to selection. But i MIGHT reference overlays (internally ?!), you never know.

And one more I thought of. If the Weapon Damage Effect is NOT a Splash effect (enemy or radial), then hide the Splash damage radii settings.

... AND... "Psionic Storm" should be "Persistant Hit" and "Suicide" should be "Self-Destruct" (as to not confuse them with the actual weapons/techs) and "Halo (Spin)" should be something like "Sway" or "Inaccurate" in the behavior I'd say.

Clickable, cause when you say selectable that sounds like it cant be selected at all, but clickable is only clicking with a mouse.

Well, it can be clicked too (and targeted !!!), only it is more complicated to explain. The "clickable" location is misplaced, that is why you can only do it with click+drag. But fair enough, "Clickable"

How can you click it if you can't target it with the mouse cursor? I agree that you can target it, but you can't really click on it per se.

You can. I have a test map where I put all buildable units (not buildings) to test my experiments with all abilities researched and so on (instead of starting a custom melee and using all cheats to get the unit i want faster).

Anyway, I had the Ghost under the Dark Archon and even though I moved the Ghost, I found I could not only select the Ghost by click+drag, but also by normally clicking it, only there was a catch. The clickable point was somewhere above it, around 1 mm above the dark archon. The distance was aprox 4-5 cursors. I noticed I could also kill it the same way (yes the Ghost was my unit, not an enemy's). It was obviously extremely difficult to select it since the selection area was 1x1 or around that, but I am not sure why the selection point was so far away. Anyway, the engine is weird, so I won't try to explain the unexplicable

Oh, and in Weapons, change "Missile" to "Projectile" as Homing/Bouncing/Normal refer to any weapon (I think).

unclickable it is then.

Just a question, is there a way to make something not selectable at all, but you can still attack it. I want to do that to interceptors. I made it so they are single entities but ide prefer no selection for them.

Well this is the best you can do I'm afraid... I don't think Blizz thought of smth like this so...

Thats what I thought, I just wanted to make sure.

No! Stop trying to hide properties that are in the file. Even if they are unused, they should be editable!

Yes but the splash settings don't even apply to any other type of damage, except for Splashes... I thought the point of DatEd is to be as user-friendly as possible (otherwise we'd have an AZ-styled DatEd that only the ones who knew what is what could edit), and some will eventually post asking why their splash settings don't work with Normal or whatever... Just as many tools only display options RELEVANT to the current selection, so should DatEd. You don't see choosing what type of integer (long, short, byte etc.) for Textboxes or Yes/No in MS Access, do you ?

... or if not hide at least grey out.

Then let's scrap the whole design of DatEdit and recreate a wizard-like guide-through program instead!

There are hint-boxes with help for this very reason. "Works ONLY if the "Explosion" is set to "Nuclear Missile", "Splash (Radial)", "Splash (Enemy)" or "Splash (Air)"." If people fail to read that, and then go crazy because a field isn't working properly, then they shouldn't even touch the program. I'm quite sure that people read the Hint-boxes, and if not, it's their problem.

As I said, hiding properties makes the program flawed by design, since it can't edit the whole file. If that attitude is to be applied on modding programs, we might just as well stick with the properties that StarEdit can change.

Well, just look at all the people asking the same question over and over when it was answered in tuts or FAQs already, not only here but on WB as well. It wasn't for me, since I for one have no problems since I do even advanced level modding and most have problems even with DatEd, which is only 10% more difficult than TBLPad and only involves knowledge of English

But I'm thinking that people forget even basic things (fact !) which is why I said that... if it is that much of a problem/issue, it doesn't really bother me, since IMO, if you don't know what something does, you shouldn't touch it, unless you actually know what you're doing, but, there are people that like to try stuff out and the result is a bunch of questions which are already answered (if only they have the decency to search... or at least read ReadMes/FAQs/Hints).

So far I saw that when I suggested newbie-friendly stuff only people that are experienced with Arsenal and DatEd replied and said NO to almost each one of them, while I have a feeling that newbie modders would have said yes... as for the Wizard thing, it is not an actual bad idea, though I wouldn't suggest it But even applications meant for pros have ONLY relevant info... I will count graphical editing programs as one example that displays options based on the current selection/tool...

As for hints... you have to admit some aren't very explanatory or some are/were wrong. The fact that you or I know what they do is irrelevant.

I do agree that people tend to ignore such things, but I don't agree to the basic statement in this issue, that people go and change every value just to see what it does in order to experiment, and then not read hints or tutorials. If people are interested, they will try to figure out how it works.


The difference between experienced modders and newbies is that the former has a wider perspective and understands where things belong. I understand that you're trying to improve the program and make it even more user-friendly and better, but DatEdit isn't confusing really. Look at what people get stuck on: "I tried to give the vulture the devourer ability and SC crashes!". It's almost only that, and it's a huge obstacle to overcome when you don't understand how the engine works. If anything can be improved, it would be some way to help people over that (tutorials!). As I said, making DatEdit more useful is great, but hiding options makes the program more limited without actually improving it. Unused flags don't confuse. The values in question this time doesn't confuse, since there's a great hint for it, and when people try to figure out how things work, they will read the hints, and if they don't, it's their problem.

Really, I think most newbies just try to make their mods load. They don't touch options they don't understand, unless they have a reason to do so. What you're talking about is really just people messing around out of curiosity, and well.... If you actually want to know how things work and not just want to make things load, then you'll read the hints....


If a bunch of options are to be removed, I think I'm going to use earlier versions of the program.

Can't argue with that
I guess in the end it really is impossy to make the perfect newbie-user-friendly tool, since it would eventually involve reading (ReadMe/FAQ/Hints/Help/Tuts/Google ) which most hate and prefer things on a silver platter...

Ojan>Fear not, nothing like this will happen. DatEdit is not a "for dummies" type of a program, neither do I want to make it this way. Hints are there for a reason, and if someone doesn't bother reading them - then it's their problem.

As for "wizard"-type stuff, forget it. I'm an oldskool type modder and programmer and as such I give you a fishing rod - not the fish itself. In other words, I give you the tool - I don't hold your hand. You don't help newbies become pros by giving them a hug - you give them a kick instead.
And for the future - don't ask for such things as I can assure you I won't listen to any such request

Indeed. While .dat-editing is nothing difficult, it's not obvious how Images-Flingy-Iscript connects, and it all comes down to reading if you are to understand it. :)

BK <3

About the Wizard-design: I was completely ironic there, it was *not* a serious suggestion from my part.

Ouch... that kinda hurt...
But I forgive you... and you know why ? Cos I know you'll dedicate the next DatEd version to me. Guess what ? Apart from the Shadow Turns, Floats, Unk10 in orders, and the other stuff I contributed to lately (that you need to put in ), you'll change something else.

This is what I want you to do. You know that Icon scroller from the Weapon.dat tab ?
Yup, the one with the index, the label and the GRP Icon... I want you to copy that into the Orders.dat tab. And position it under "Order Options" and before "Flags" (well the pos is up to you, but I figure it's better to have all pull-downs in one place kinda).
Then I want you to rename "Group (?)" to "Highlighted Button". THAT'S RIGHT !! I figured out another unknown (don't you just wanna huggle me, wuggle me and give me an icecream ? ... or at least a cookie... ?). The "Group (?)" is actually an index to cmd_icons, that specifies which icon to highlight. A number between 0 and the last displayed icon (something without blank) is the equivalent to the icon and 65535 is no highlight. No highlight means as you are used to, no highlighted buttons, while inputting an icon (THAT MUST BE PRESENT on the unit obviously) will make it whitey looking. And NO, it won't crash if you use an icon not present, but I think it will just not display anything (obviously). I know A3 has a pointer to units.dat for it, but that's not what it does, trust me (yes, I have the SC source and cos I'm right and cos I say so ) ... (ok I don't have the source, but I know I'm right).

... how I found what "Group ?" does ? Let's just say... call me a human debugging tool (DoA knows) ... Actually you know too Broody, from my first PM to you that was based on trial and error

Oh yeah, and remember to rename "Missile" in Weapons.dat to "Projectile", the "Psionic Storm" behavior to "Persistant Hit" and add the new IScripts... I guess you could use either my or kookster's list, but in the SF's is better so that it will correspond properly so yeah...

Ah... it feels good when I rock... damn I rock so much that I'll end up stoned... Just enjoy another nomadic production of human debugging and uncovering another unk

... oh yeah, for the disbelievers... just get an index from the weapons tab icon thingy, one that corresponds to the unit's commands (say, you want to test irradiate... just use the EMP icon or Hold Pos or move or DMatrix... obviously choosing lift-off wont' be any good) and watch me rocking

Those other Orders.dat unknowns obsess me, I swear (yes, I know, you could tell if I figured out this).

On a side-note, I was actually curious (see a few threads on WB, among which [xx]Icons) which EXE thingy controls this... who'd have thought I'll be the one to find it ? Well I did, but I was hoping, I didn't actually think I will

Yes, it's 1:50 am, and instead of sleeping I debug unknowns... *sigh* I am too obsessed with SC modding.

Wow, you might not want to post/debug while your this tired. It could come back to bite you one day...

Anyways, what's the timeframe for the next dat edit?

I think generally the timeframe is that updates come out whenever BroodKiller feels like updating them

4:26 atm
Well if you'll check earlier posts in this thread, you'll see I have most breakthroughs after midnight
I take it Broody will buy me some coffee

Hell Ill buy you some coffee
Just keep the unknown craching going!!