Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yoshi da Sniper on 2005-05-05 at 22:43:55
I really don't get why you people would want a protection against something which is only a learning tool, and cannot be anything else.
There is no privacy involved with triggering. So far, the reasons against for having such a program have been next to nill.
Main arguements against the program:
Deathknight, don't make a protection technique to counter this trigger viewer. You are just encouraging people to break the protection and then having full access to the map. When you see people totally copying other triggers, then by all means go ahead and corrupt chks all you want, but I doubt that will ever be the case. I've been reading websites and peoples opinions, so far, its about 95% favour of this program.
You guys give me absolutely no reason why this is a hurtful program, or what this has to do with privacy. I said, its not like you have naked pictures of yourself, or your credit card numbers stored in a map. I respect peoples credits towards making a map, I wouldn't like it either if my exact work was copied, so I'm making sure the program will never be hosted here if it supports extraction of triggers.
Would you people rather have newbies look for unprotection methods, which may result in your name being erased in your map, or would you rather have that newbie download this program and peek at your triggers?
There is no privacy involved with triggering. So far, the reasons against for having such a program have been next to nill.
Main arguements against the program:
- Exposes hidden passwords
- Exposes hidden secerts
- May allow for other newbies to mimic your triggering style
- Discourages use of unprotection methods, since you can't press a button labeled save. Thus meaning, less rigged, less stolen, and less "accidental save/unprotection so everyone has to redownload".
- Allows people to see how triggers are done. People can look at your triggers anyway, because to be honest, there ARE still unprotection methods out there. Proedit is not invincible and never will be.
- Allows newbies to pick up tips from the masters, meaning, more people getting better at map making, more people creating revolutoinary concepts, more maps, more complexity, more fun.
- Rasises the bar for map making standard. Remember when I brought out that skyscraper video tutorial about terrian? Some people apposed it because they thought it was "teaching everyone something so now an awesome concept isn't restricted to the best map makers". Guess what. That video tutorial most likely triggered the creation of the terrian forum, where people strive to make better and better terrian.
- If you're having trouble with your map triggers, but don't want to post an unprotected version of your map, this trigger viewer will allow people to help you without problem (although, you could export the triggers, I must admit)
- Allows people to critique your triggering techniques, which could make you a better map maker as well. I mean, that is why we're all here right? To be better map makers?
Deathknight, don't make a protection technique to counter this trigger viewer. You are just encouraging people to break the protection and then having full access to the map. When you see people totally copying other triggers, then by all means go ahead and corrupt chks all you want, but I doubt that will ever be the case. I've been reading websites and peoples opinions, so far, its about 95% favour of this program.
You guys give me absolutely no reason why this is a hurtful program, or what this has to do with privacy. I said, its not like you have naked pictures of yourself, or your credit card numbers stored in a map. I respect peoples credits towards making a map, I wouldn't like it either if my exact work was copied, so I'm making sure the program will never be hosted here if it supports extraction of triggers.
Would you people rather have newbies look for unprotection methods, which may result in your name being erased in your map, or would you rather have that newbie download this program and peek at your triggers?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by RexyRex on 2005-05-05 at 22:45:44
Another Yoshi ownage.
Brains over the ban button.
Brains over the ban button.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yoshi da Sniper on 2005-05-05 at 23:01:17
Do you guys realize, that Bolt, Tux, Chuiu, Moose, Me, etc haven't objected to this program at all? I mean, out of all the people to be worried about people viewing our triggers, don't you think it'd be us?
Heck, Bolty released his maps unprotected a while ago. Tux is going to release another map unprotected I hear. Don't you think there is ANY truth to any of this at all? I mean, chances are, those two map makers are going to always be better then you at map making. I know they'll always better than me with making maps, I don't fight it. They don't care if you look at their maps, and out of anyone THEY will be the ones targeted to be apparently "mimiced" as you guys say.
Heck, Bolty released his maps unprotected a while ago. Tux is going to release another map unprotected I hear. Don't you think there is ANY truth to any of this at all? I mean, chances are, those two map makers are going to always be better then you at map making. I know they'll always better than me with making maps, I don't fight it. They don't care if you look at their maps, and out of anyone THEY will be the ones targeted to be apparently "mimiced" as you guys say.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-05-05 at 23:20:17
Let's say you have a house. It's a grand, wonderful house with outstanding design and all that stuff. It's like your dream house and it's something very innovative and you designed it yourself. We'll just say this house of yours is just like your map. And basically, you want your house protected so noone can just simply intrude it or damage it or steal it from you. Basically, stealing a map would just be like a random intruder barging into your house and just he kicks you out literally, locks you out, and then calls it his own house. Using the "trigger view" program or w/e on a map is just like a random intruder just knocking your door down and just taking a tour of your house without your permission. He may stroll into your room, look inside some of your private drawers, see some embarrasing things you have hidden from public, and be the center of deridation. And maybe he might walk into one of your closets and find the actual blueprint of your house. He might jot some of it down, then walks out and builds his own house right next to yours or right in front of it, using basically the same blueprint. Then he might draw a bigger crowd and then get all the credit for it, leaving you in the shadow. This might be just as bad as if someone stole your house.
Same thing could be said about our starcraft maps.
However, this does not mean i am opposed to this program. I'm just bringing up something in which i feel some other people that might be opposed or feel uncomfortable about this might say. Owell just a thought
Same thing could be said about our starcraft maps.
However, this does not mean i am opposed to this program. I'm just bringing up something in which i feel some other people that might be opposed or feel uncomfortable about this might say. Owell just a thought
Report, edit, etc...Posted by chuiu on 2005-05-05 at 23:25:18
MA. They are maps. Not houses, not safes, not operating systems, not anything significant. They are maps. The whole idea of this program is to show people how a map works, not let them copy everything, not let them change anything.
As I stated before, it would be easier to unlock the map than it would be to duplicate it through viewing the triggers/locations and recreating the terrain.
As I stated before, it would be easier to unlock the map than it would be to duplicate it through viewing the triggers/locations and recreating the terrain.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yoshi da Sniper on 2005-05-05 at 23:28:24
Is that how you see open source software? When someone takes a look at source of programming or linux or whatever, they're basically destructively looking at someone elses property for no constructive purpose? Of course not.
In fact, using that example, by PLAYING the map you're effectively bumping around triggers, terrain, locations and whatever. Its even WORSE then opening a map! So you should just stop distributing your map altogether and don't let anyone see it, because its all for just YOU!
People copy designs all the time. You can pretty much guess what triggers are used in a map without even opening it, so this program really doesn't change the balence of stealing.
Kck made the FIRST orginal bound ever and started a chain reaction that resulted in thousands of bounds. Everyone liked it so much, they COPIED his idea, and went out and made their own bounds, which resulted in 1000s of extremely simular yet ever so popular map genre. There was no trigger viewer back then, so do you really think this trigger viewer can effect the results of what types of maps are made? Heck no. Its going to stop no one from mimicing maps.
In fact, using that example, by PLAYING the map you're effectively bumping around triggers, terrain, locations and whatever. Its even WORSE then opening a map! So you should just stop distributing your map altogether and don't let anyone see it, because its all for just YOU!
People copy designs all the time. You can pretty much guess what triggers are used in a map without even opening it, so this program really doesn't change the balence of stealing.
Kck made the FIRST orginal bound ever and started a chain reaction that resulted in thousands of bounds. Everyone liked it so much, they COPIED his idea, and went out and made their own bounds, which resulted in 1000s of extremely simular yet ever so popular map genre. There was no trigger viewer back then, so do you really think this trigger viewer can effect the results of what types of maps are made? Heck no. Its going to stop no one from mimicing maps.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-05-05 at 23:30:50
It doesn't matter what they are. What matters is that you made them; it's YOUR product, not others. It could be anything from the most ridiculous thing to the most important thing. My point is that it is the maker's obligation to decide whether his product could be viewed by other people or not. If you say ANYthing is allowed to be viewed by the public, it's basically violating one of the natural rights we humans are all granted in the United States.
But yes, it's maps. So i guess it really depends on you.
And again, lemme say this one more time. I am NOT opposed to this program! Infact, i support it, but i'm just trying to look at this in other ways.
But yes, it's maps. So i guess it really depends on you.
And again, lemme say this one more time. I am NOT opposed to this program! Infact, i support it, but i'm just trying to look at this in other ways.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yoshi da Sniper on 2005-05-05 at 23:40:54
QUOTE
If you say ANYthing is allowed to be viewed by the public, it's basically violating one of the natural rights we humans are all granted in the United States.
Being human has nothing to do with a starcraft map trigger viewer.QUOTE
I am NOT opposed to this program! Infact, i support it, but i'm just trying to look at this in other ways.
I'm glad you are looking at it different ways, because there are still people (very small amount of people) who look at it your way, and once they see this hopefully they will change their mind.QUOTE
It doesn't matter what they are. What matters is that you made them; it's YOUR product, not others. It could be anything from the most ridiculous thing to the most important thing. My point is that it is the maker's obligation to decide whether his product could be viewed by other people or not.
Actually, I think its perfectly legal to decompile any program and look at how it works. It is illegal, to edit it, make money off it, etc without author premission. (if I'm incorrect, sorry). When a car company competitor brings out a new car, whats the first thing you do? Buy one and rip it appart piece by piece and see how it works so you can make something better. Luckily, the SC community doesn't have a dog eat dog additude like the corperations out there, but the fact remains, if you're comparing this to life, which you really shouldn't because its unrelated, people open up TVs, cars, phones, whatever and see how they work, and what makes them tick. Period. We WANT to respect peoples credits on maps, but we also want to enable users to freely look at these maps too.Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-05-05 at 23:55:52
QUOTE
Being human has nothing to do with a starcraft map trigger viewer.
I was saying the map trigger viewer basically deprives the map maker the right to decide whether to allow people to intrude into their property/products, which is something the Bill of RIghts grants to us americans.
But as i said earlier, i guess it isn't my place to say this. It's up to the makers.
My views are different from yours (and maybe many others) about this, but i ardently believe that whether people can view map triggers freely stuff is not for the consumers (the players) to decide on, but for the producers (makers) to.
PS. in my very first post in this thread, i said something like "I am also opposed to this program in just as many ways." I actually didn't mean to say that
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Lord_Kao on 2005-05-06 at 11:27:23
id rather someone completely steal my maps then try to horribly recreate it.....
anyways what if someone makes this GODLY trigger that would normally revolutionize maps and people would try to recreate it on there own....with this program they would barely have to do anything to figure this trigger out recreate it and throw a map in public.....sure its a good program for new map makers but a map makers purpose IS to figure how things work and what it does.....sure a little help here and there is good but this program completely gets rid of the purpose of trying to figure something out on your own....
anyways all im saying is there should be some way to protect your maps from this...without much hassle since like MA said its up to the maker of the map if they want people to see how they did things...
anyways what if someone makes this GODLY trigger that would normally revolutionize maps and people would try to recreate it on there own....with this program they would barely have to do anything to figure this trigger out recreate it and throw a map in public.....sure its a good program for new map makers but a map makers purpose IS to figure how things work and what it does.....sure a little help here and there is good but this program completely gets rid of the purpose of trying to figure something out on your own....
anyways all im saying is there should be some way to protect your maps from this...without much hassle since like MA said its up to the maker of the map if they want people to see how they did things...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yoshi da Sniper on 2005-05-06 at 11:57:34
QUOTE
I was saying the map trigger viewer basically deprives the map maker the right to decide whether to allow people to intrude into their property/products, which is something the Bill of RIghts grants to us americans.
Actually, the licence in which you agreed upon for using Staredit and Starcraft nullifies such rights. Plus im not american 
QUOTE
id rather someone completely steal my maps then try to horribly recreate it.....
Why? Someone can horribly recreate your maps ANYWAY right now just by looking your map. Most of the time, they are never played on battle.net anyway because they are horribily recreated.If you don't want people to try to horribly recreate it, I have the solution for you! Don't distribute your maps to anyone, keep it to yourself. Because by posting it on websites and playing it on battle.net, you are enabling other users to see your map and so called "attempt to recreate the map".
QUOTE
anyways what if someone makes this GODLY trigger that would normally revolutionize maps and people would try to recreate it on there own....with this program they would barely have to do anything to figure this trigger out recreate it and throw a map in public.....sure its a good program for new map makers but a map makers purpose IS to figure how things work and what it does.....sure a little help here and there is good but this program completely gets rid of the purpose of trying to figure something out on your own....
The second you stepped onto this website, you stepped into a place of learning. We don't horde techniques to ourselves for our own egotisical means. If that were the case, I would of privatized Staredit Network, and you would have had to gone through a riggous application process to have an account here and have posted what you just did. If "people should learn by themselves", then the purpose of this website should not exist. If that is truely your opinion, then you shouldn't look at the tutorials section, or experimental maps, or post/look in the assistance section because thats what we do here. Share information and learn, which resulted in some of the most innovative concepts you see today, were a direct result of the intellegent and creative map makers from this website.Report, edit, etc...Posted by Deathknight on 2005-05-06 at 15:48:23
Look, map stealers will still look for unprotection methods, they just won't have any bullshit reasons to. This program doesn't prevent maps from being stolen. It doesn't change peoples' intentions, and you're making it sound like it does.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yoshi da Sniper on 2005-05-06 at 15:59:55
Some people seek out unprotection methods to learn how a map works. Personally, I really don't care and have a problem with that.
It's the ones that seek it out, have it, and then decide to abuse it and put their own name on a map instead. This is what people hate, and why unprotection is undesired by people.
It's like giving everybody a gun and telling them not to fire it. People WILL fire it. But if you give everyone an alternative, lets say, a paintball weapon, they can fire it without causing damage. Thats what I think anyway.
Maybe mindarchon can program something to allow you to hide up to 5 triggers by having a certain prefix on the comment your triggers (Such as "HIDEME" or something). This could eliminate the secerts and password problem. Hows that?
But for real, protection was not created for hiding mapping techniques. It was made to preserve author names, and unfortunately, people had to corrupt chks to do so. If you're using it to hide the techniques of how you made your map, then yes, you really shouldn't be making maps, because 99.9% of all techniques can be "guessed" just by looking at the map.
It's the ones that seek it out, have it, and then decide to abuse it and put their own name on a map instead. This is what people hate, and why unprotection is undesired by people.
It's like giving everybody a gun and telling them not to fire it. People WILL fire it. But if you give everyone an alternative, lets say, a paintball weapon, they can fire it without causing damage. Thats what I think anyway.
Maybe mindarchon can program something to allow you to hide up to 5 triggers by having a certain prefix on the comment your triggers (Such as "HIDEME" or something). This could eliminate the secerts and password problem. Hows that?
But for real, protection was not created for hiding mapping techniques. It was made to preserve author names, and unfortunately, people had to corrupt chks to do so. If you're using it to hide the techniques of how you made your map, then yes, you really shouldn't be making maps, because 99.9% of all techniques can be "guessed" just by looking at the map.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MapUnprotector on 2005-05-06 at 16:30:18
You don't even need to protect maps, as long as you make your map well known throughout bnet and the SEN community by playing your map often and spreading it. I think protection serves as just a simple deterrent, that will stop all the lazy mapstealers who want their name on anything.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MindArchon on 2005-05-06 at 17:55:35
QUOTE(Yoshi da Sniper @ May 6 2005, 12:59 PM)
Some people seek out unprotection methods to learn how a map works. Personally, I really don't care and have a problem with that.
It's the ones that seek it out, have it, and then decide to abuse it and put their own name on a map instead. This is what people hate, and why unprotection is undesired by people.
It's like giving everybody a gun and telling them not to fire it. People WILL fire it. But if you give everyone an alternative, lets say, a paintball weapon, they can fire it without causing damage. Thats what I think anyway.
Maybe mindarchon can program something to allow you to hide up to 5 triggers by having a certain prefix on the comment your triggers (Such as "HIDEME" or something). This could eliminate the secerts and password problem. Hows that?
But for real, protection was not created for hiding mapping techniques. It was made to preserve author names, and unfortunately, people had to corrupt chks to do so. If you're using it to hide the techniques of how you made your map, then yes, you really shouldn't be making maps, because 99.9% of all techniques can be "guessed" just by looking at the map.
[right][snapback]201978[/snapback][/right]
It's the ones that seek it out, have it, and then decide to abuse it and put their own name on a map instead. This is what people hate, and why unprotection is undesired by people.
It's like giving everybody a gun and telling them not to fire it. People WILL fire it. But if you give everyone an alternative, lets say, a paintball weapon, they can fire it without causing damage. Thats what I think anyway.
Maybe mindarchon can program something to allow you to hide up to 5 triggers by having a certain prefix on the comment your triggers (Such as "HIDEME" or something). This could eliminate the secerts and password problem. Hows that?
But for real, protection was not created for hiding mapping techniques. It was made to preserve author names, and unfortunately, people had to corrupt chks to do so. If you're using it to hide the techniques of how you made your map, then yes, you really shouldn't be making maps, because 99.9% of all techniques can be "guessed" just by looking at the map.
[right][snapback]201978[/snapback][/right]
I was thinking of that myself. Only problem I would have would how I would actually implement it. Would there be a whole new program, or would I somehow put it into Trigger Viewer?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yoshi da Sniper on 2005-05-06 at 18:48:25
Have it so that if you maybe put an unchecked NEVER condition (so it doesnt run, either) in the conditions trigger remains hidden, and there should be a max of 3, so the program ignores the triggers after the first 3?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mini Moose 2707 on 2005-05-08 at 13:16:18
A trigger with an UNCHECKED Never condition will still run.
Adding the Hideme stuff won't work, simply because the current version is already out and spread.
Also, I would just use it on every trigger.
If you're going to give the option to hide triggers, there was no point in making the program besides forcing everyone to make tedious updates to their maps.
Adding the Hideme stuff won't work, simply because the current version is already out and spread.
Also, I would just use it on every trigger.
If you're going to give the option to hide triggers, there was no point in making the program besides forcing everyone to make tedious updates to their maps.Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yoshi da Sniper on 2005-05-08 at 13:47:06
QUOTE(Mini Moose 2707 @ May 8 2005, 01:16 PM)
A trigger with an UNCHECKED Never condition will still run.
Adding the Hideme stuff won't work, simply because the current version is already out and spread.
Also, I would just use it on every trigger. If you're going to give the option to hide triggers, there was no point in making the program besides forcing everyone to make tedious updates to their maps.
[right][snapback]203408[/snapback][/right]
Adding the Hideme stuff won't work, simply because the current version is already out and spread.
Also, I would just use it on every trigger.
If you're going to give the option to hide triggers, there was no point in making the program besides forcing everyone to make tedious updates to their maps.[right][snapback]203408[/snapback][/right]
Thats why I said, max of 3.
An unchecked never trigger will run, yes. But its a useless trigger to put in, except to hide password triggers maybe.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Urmom(U) on 2005-05-09 at 17:22:56
QUOTE(MillenniumArmy @ May 5 2005, 10:20 PM)
Let's say you have a house. It's a grand, wonderful house with outstanding design and all that stuff. It's like your dream house and it's something very innovative and you designed it yourself. We'll just say this house of yours is just like your map. And basically, you want your house protected so noone can just simply intrude it or damage it or steal it from you. Basically, stealing a map would just be like a random intruder barging into your house and just he kicks you out literally, locks you out, and then calls it his own house. Using the "trigger view" program or w/e on a map is just like a random intruder just knocking your door down and just taking a tour of your house without your permission. He may stroll into your room, look inside some of your private drawers, see some embarrasing things you have hidden from public, and be the center of deridation. And maybe he might walk into one of your closets and find the actual blueprint of your house. He might jot some of it down, then walks out and builds his own house right next to yours or right in front of it, using basically the same blueprint. Then he might draw a bigger crowd and then get all the credit for it, leaving you in the shadow. This might be just as bad as if someone stole your house.
Same thing could be said about our starcraft maps.
However, this does not mean i am opposed to this program. I'm just bringing up something in which i feel some other people that might be opposed or feel uncomfortable about this might say. Owell just a thought
[right][snapback]201755[/snapback][/right]
Same thing could be said about our starcraft maps.
However, this does not mean i am opposed to this program. I'm just bringing up something in which i feel some other people that might be opposed or feel uncomfortable about this might say. Owell just a thought
[right][snapback]201755[/snapback][/right]
its more like peeking through the window. bashing through the door would be like tampering the map. i think that everybody just needs to give up on this. besides, how many maps have you played that youve attempted to copy? ITS NATURAL FOR PEOPLE TO DO THAT! Even if they attempt to make an entire copy of your map, wholl say itll be better. if your using deathcounts and whatnot, just name all the units the same so that it will appear to be using the same unit. also, look at most of the maps on b.net. they are recreations of others.