Staredit Network

Wow.. just wow. What surprises me the most is your lack of care of what other people may think about your program and how you say "Yes, you may not like it, but too bad, I released it." Many people trusted you, when you became an Admin here, and were you not the one that scanned OSMAP and told Moose that it was safe? How can we trust you now? It makes me wonder what else OSMAP does.

Yeah, people are resistant to change. Despite the way I've acted in this thread (RANDOMLY), I agree completely with what Legacy was trying to do. He's trying to liberate innocent maps from evil 'protection' rackets.

And with this post, I leave you all to bicker. Just remember this: LegacyWeapon is right and you are ALL WRONG.

How would you feel if you spent day after day slaving over the perfect map and protected to make sure you got the credit you deserved, then the next day you see an identical version of it with some random persons name? I know I would feel cheated, it also becomes harder to determine who originally created maps and whos responsible for what.

And what makes him right? The fact that he wears a prestigious tag of an elite map making clan and is a high admin on a well respected site in the map making community? I think not.

The best way to avoid that? be original

If there was suddenly a staredit.com...wouldn't that be the littlest suspicious?

Because of the site's reputation...so if you are so afraid of that become great, code something random, like an ongoing inside joke that appears in every map...like a creature that's obnoxious that you created...

There is a lot of dishonest people, but to have an ego and make subpar, mainstream maps is unacceptable. I don't know about your maps in particular, but why not use this as a tool to become great enough that you bipass what you perceive to be a nasty side effect of OSMAP?

dude LW making osmap is like a surprise...its a conspiracy i say...
why didn't LW just put his name on osmap...

As well as that, Legacy was a trusted member of the SC community, now that we know he did this, how can we trust him again? I know he meant well, but it's not really his decision to make whether people should be allowed to protect their maps or not. I know from experience that people will simply quit mapmaking if their maps are always getting stolen, which hurts the mapmaking community considerably.

I think he should of made a poll about him making osmap b4 he made it...

Hmm.. *looks at Silent(U)'s post*

You know.. I think the problem lies more in the ideals of people than necessarily OSMAP. (Feel free to say "durr" or "duh" in your post)

I mean.. a society like America's is obviously much different than any other country, and vice versa. If I made a map and had it stolen, I would be just as furious. In the end though, the only reason I could give to Cheeze for being furious would be, "It's mine!".

It has little to do with bragging rights or rigging; these are secondary qualities that come later. I'm assuming people's first reaction is neither "omg I can't brag about my map because some **** stole it" nor "Oh no they're gonna rig my map!".
The first reaction is, simply, "Hey that's my freaking map!"

So I guess what my thoughts come up to is this: Is "It's mine!" a good reason to have protection?

(Final thoughts: Copyright exists, so I suppose "It's mine!" has some merit. Anyone heard of creative commons? It's this partial copyright; just google it.)

I assume the story of OSMAP is something like that of Heimdal and SCUnprotect. How SCUnprotect was made by Heimdal to test his abilities and it was leaked out. Except, my assumtions coming from the main post, it does not seem like he intended for it to only test his abilities, but to distrubte as well. Then again, I thought I, and many others knew Legacy, but obviously, we don't.

Edit:


Without OSMAP, those ideals would not of been brought to anyone's attention

Quite frankly, the fact that legacy made osmap doesnt bother me nearly as much as the fact that he lied about it-- most people trust moderators and staff members implicitly, and for one of them to lie outright about something like this is shocking.
Also, if one compares this open sourcing to communism as was done on the first page, one must also realize that communism only works when the ENTIRE community willfully adopts it, forcing it onto a community results in instability, and eventual collapse.

Well somewhat think of it like this. Hacks and anti hacks, they'll always be fighting to beat the other this is what this is in a way. Now franckly it was a nice idea and all but as you can see alot of people incredibly dispise it. I protected my maps for the glory and such but knowing about OSMAP 4 months ago i stopped bothering using proedit and such instead i use sf just to stop people that dont know crap about mapping to even try and comprehend my methods. but if their smart enough to get in the map they should be smart enough to understand it (i hope). and ya

I agree, map unprotection never was bad, except for those few brats, but think of the wiki example, the couple little brats that come and ruin things, well, those things get fixed very quickly. By people who are mature normal people. Someone plays a map, "Morphs!" for example, the only map I've made so far, and sees "made by andrew2345324", they then say, "wait a second, I thought this was made by Laser_Dude, they check, for the sake of it, and it was, so they delete it. If someone rigged it, they just don't play the new version.



Well, if protection were a requirement, I never would've learned all those handy systems or trigger organization skills from "Rush" and I never would've worked most of the bugs out of "Fleet Command". Think of the tutorials database being a wiki, AKA open source. It is/will be waaaay better because it's open source. People can go in and update info, or fix wrong stuff.



You're right, I did too. But with maps protected, how on earth would people learn to make maps? My learning comes from ages of playing a map that has some trigger that I wanna see how it works, I open it in staredit (it's handy) and have a look at the triggers. But it's taken ages. Occasionally I find an unprotected map, and I have a look at it. Tux leaving "Rush" unprotected was the best thing that ever happened to me. Triggers galore. That was where I learned about hyper triggers and deathcounts(Gimme a break, I'm new!)

exo, you have been a total I mean, yoshi stood up for what he believed, and you go flame, flame, flame till he just cracked. We Live in free countries!!! we should ban all of you who flamed LW for coming outta the shade, and those who flamed yoshi, for supporting him!

This is the only time I've ever seen I good use for this:

OSMAP exists, it's a fact, noone on SEN is going to do any map stealing, we would only use it for good purposes, being a mapping community we know we'd hate to be on the other side. Our banning of OSMAP will do no good, since it doesn't affect the ones who'll be doing the stealing. It's like the problems with Canada's gun-bans. All the responsible people will hand in their guns, even though they wouldn't do anything, while the bad guys will just keep em, and shoot more people. No good's been done.

Yes, you are correct, what I said to yoshi was completely wrong and he'll probably ban me for it, which I deserve. We should also ban anyone who hates LW for coming out of the OSMAP closet. This is a transitionary period for him, we should all support him as he explores his alternate lifestyle.

Laser, while it's true that you can learn from maps, most people who unprotect maps don't. Not to mention there are many other places where you can learn from as well like the wiki and tutorials in SEN or simply asking someone. Not only are these ways easier, but they will help you understand it better. Finally, like you said, some people choose to leave their maps unprotected like Tux, however, that is their OWN choice and the decision should not be made for them by someone else.

Reading this I have learned many things.
One way to keep your map as yours name it Laser_Dudes Star Bound like miles laser tag.
LW had said it's safe yes but since he made it he knew it's safe.
That was how all the protection methods found were stopped so quickly.

Zing. I won't repeat what I've already said earlier or try to restate what's been said here, but I still support protection. I've seen first hand what people can do as far as abusing things, and it ain't purdy.

But really, this issue is way overblown. I guess it's not so much protection anymore as it is calling LW's character into question. I'm disappointed that he never attempted to make any kind of decision or process to decide if OSMAP would be a good thing or not with the rest of the community. He acted on his own, and now his actions are going to have universal consequences for map makers here and beyond. Frankly, I think at least a demotion is called for based on that alone.



Anyway, here's what I really think of the issue as of now :
http://www.pbfcomics.com/?cid=0PBF10060BC-Skub.jpg#11

It's Skub!

Well let's assume there are immature people who will use OSMAP (we don't even have to assume it, we know it). Let's just pretend I am one of those, and I put my names on all the good maps left and right. Of course people will know it wasn't me, but the creator of the map will never get fair credit for his creation, which is very important to some people, myself included. I would of course be discreditted as a loser map thief, but the actual makers still wouldn't get their credit.

I just had a wonderful idea, although I'll feel bad for whoever's maps I end up doing this to, if I do it. Use LW's blasted creation to unprotect maps and put HIS name on them then re-release them to the public. Own LW's rep even more than it already has been.

When did he become some God, it's not his decision to make, that's just unfair.

Only way I would ever support this program is if it unprotected the map, but DIDN'T allow any changes. It would still be "open source" right? It just wouldn't be stealable. You could use the information inside to learn, but you couldn't change it and put your name on it.

LW beware if I ever learn to hack, you'll be my first and probably only victim. Ooh maybe Permaphrost will teach me .

Wow... just wow...

YOU PEOPLE ARE TAKING TIHS WAY TOO SERIOUSLY

Name ONE well-spread map that's been rigged beyond playability because of OSMAP during these past four months.

Name ONE well-spread map that's been stolen and thus the original creator's name has been forgotten because of OSMAP during these past four months.

Name ONE well-spread map that's been completely destroyed because of OSMAP during these past four months.


Honestly what's wrong with you people. 4 Month's is plenty of time for people to abuse OSMAP and use them to destroy maps. Name one famous map out there that's fallen victim to OSMAP.

...

Obviously not that many.


You people disgust me. You guys are complaining about crap that's probably never going to happen. You're like "OMFG PEOPLE ARE GOING TO STEAL MY MAP!!" Look at battle.net right now, look at the list of games in the join list. How many maps have you seen fallen victim to OSMAP? Yes there are plenty that have fallen to older map unprotectors, like RE: Racoon City, but nothing new has happened with OSMAP.

Nobody cares enough now on Starcraft to waste their time stealing a map and try spreading it. It's already hard enough to spread a map now due to the dying taste of map variety out there.


Stfu everyone. These past 4 months OSMAP has DONE NOTHING (harmful) to the starcraft community. Just continue on with your lives as nothing happened...

You're right, Millenium. Looking at bnet, I see 99% ripoff/spinoff maps. It's not a big deal now because there's practically nothing left that isn't already illegitimate childized to hell anyway. At least among the predominate crap maps people play on bnet, in any case.



This isn't an issue about credit for maps and such. It's an issue about control. OSMAP takes away control from the map's maker and gives it to 12 year olds on bnet. Whether they actually abuse that control or not is irrelevant. It's now devolved into an anarchy: Anything goes. You can claim it started out that way, sure, just as you could claim the same thing for civilization itself. But there's a reason civilization itself is not in that primal state anymore. I feel having OSMAP undoes some degree of mapping's evolution, as now mappers concerned about theft would have to work harder to protect themselves uncertain of success by trying to convince others of their sincerity. Less time spent making maps, more time spent worrying about ownership.

Not having protection is like not having insurance: Even if what your insurance covers rarely happens, you're still glad its there nonetheless.

Privacy/rights stuff, that's another issue. From what i've been reading it seems like people are really paranoid about map stealing/rigging aspect of OSMAP, so my previous post was to address just those.


As far as Privacy/rights, I really don't think it matters that much... Besides, this is only starcraft map making. And all this stuff you're doing is going to be done through the internet. And the internet is overrated...


Exactly. It was the paranoia of you guys that is killing map making. You guys worry about stuff that's never going to happen.

I believe that OSMap has great potential to go both ways. First, there are those who will claim credit for others' work by stealing maps. Some will unprotect old maps and perhaps want to improve or/and complete them. I believe in OSMap because I can finally see how some spiffy maps were done, but strongly believe that map thieves are the enemy, not unprotectors. Admittedly, unprotectors aid thieves. We must also ask ourselves what constitutes ownership. Assuming you're modding a map, at what point does it become yours instead of a mod of someone else's work assuming you give proper credit?

-EE