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Beer, its not like the entrances for the terran player are far away that if he was flanked he couldnt move his units there. Who doesnt have units scouting at all times anyway?
I must agree that you should post a rep were you flank some one and they become at a disadvantage.

Also, it is much easier to have marines micro in battle against zealots. Pull the hurt ones back, the zeals have to chase them to kill them, or they attack a fresh marine and get its health down, then the zeal dies.

If you say you are better than me, let's play on an established map.

You are crazy if you think that terran can function with two chokes, one of them huge, and two very open middle sections. I have played as terran on luna, a map with an unbuildable center and an unwallable choke, so I know about different builds. However, terran would really need to bunker their minerals in order to survive since they can't prevent zeals from entering their base. There is no way the terran can go metal on this map, and even if they survive the very early game they will be 100% flankable.

In fact, do you want to pvt this map? I'll be able to do it tommorow.

ADDITION:
Yenku, people don't micro zeals like the computer does. In an *early* game zeal battle protoss users micro their zeals almost as much as a terran will micro their marines.

Yea, but you really cant do well microing a zealot against ranged units.

Hmm..Very nice for 1v1. I like how you did your backwards ramp. It looks real nice. Although I dont play melee much. And I completely despise 1v1, this looks like something worth checking out. But great job, I assume you went for the same type of terrain for each side, I see a few flaws but they arent very major (wouldnt give a huge edge for one team). Well good job dude.

Updated map.
[attachmentid=7495]
Worked on ramps a lot. Main ramps can now be blocked with just two buildings (rax and supply) the second entrance to the base can be blocked with one supply depot (or a rax if one should desire. Marines can get through so I assume zerglings can't either, though I'm not entirly sure. Some bits look a little blocky but it mostly looks logical. The giant ramps are now hindered by patches of 8 minerals.

I added a little mineral outpost, minerals closest to the main are just 8 while others are 16.

The mineral and gas only on the sides of the map (near the middle) can be shot entirly by siege tanks from above, so I felt no pressing need to move them around.

Many doodads added to hinder protoss armies, if you can't see them, that's your problem.

I am posting this update as a tribute to those who said they would miss me, I will add this topic on my e-mail so I can answer future questions and perhaps a newer update, if anyone so desires I'll post the map. I do intend to clean things up a little if I get an okay response to this.

Ihattet, I play Zerg, it would hardly be fair for me to have tested it for Terran, sorry about the late reply.

I think this is an improvment over the original as it doesn't put Terran in a completly new world but it still takes away some of their imbalances that I see in many maps. This map probably still has some problems but they can be adjusted if I think people will play it.

I didn't adjust the look of the high dirt because I think it would just look stupid and unbalanced if I changed it. It looks fine the way it is and if anything better because emptiness is a sense in the battle field too.

There you have it, my update. Don't expect me to post anywhere outside of this topic, or even in the topic after a few days, it won't happen. I just wanted to be nice to a few people who enjoyed my posts.

Thanks for reading,

PsychoTemplar

hmm, Im not so sure about the big square of minerals
And you still didnt fix the expo that had less space on the right side.

Farewell Psycho Templar

Update:
[attachmentid=7533]
Better?
I've gotten some advice from another forum telling me to add some rocky terrain to deter tank pushes. I'll probably do something like that soon.

The square minerals were to give Terran some advantage, immunity to melee units coming too close at either main. Just bring a few SCV's along for the attack, which people should do anyway.

Wow, you added lots of doodads.
I like the rocky terrain idea. I would definately help.

Another Update, lots of changes.
[attachmentid=7538]
There be a shit load of doodads, should make the map interesting to look at.

What's with all the minerals around the map? It doesn't look good.

This map is just too darn straight. Make it look natural, or change the tileset to space or something else.

And there is too much open terrain. Terran won't have a chance at winning this map.

Generally, it just looks like it was made in a few minutes. Sorry but thats my opinion. Try to put more imagination in your maps, because it just looks like a bunch of hills, with a bunch of expos placed anywhere.

There's only one way I know how to respond to such a comment. You're an idiot. Next time, take a look at the post right above yours, if you did, actually look at the map.

I have a tip for you. Don't just make maps, play the game... a lot, because that advice was piss poor. Changing the tileset... did you notice the backwards ramp? that's not easy shit. Open space? Maybe you missed about 200 doodads and corners everywhere. I'm going to leave it at that, nothing in that post was constructive.

I'm still working on the map but I don't need advice like that, common, these types of posts are the reason this is my last topic.

Currently working on high ground stuff, making it prettier er whatever.

No need to be so offensive, you posted this map for comments, I gave you my opinion. If you don't like it then I don't really care.

If you think this map isnt open at all, compare it to other maps. Doodads aren't going to make things better. Im just saying to remove some big plains of jungle and add water, or hills, or something else.

And I think the backwards ramp is a good idea. Could look a bit better but I know it isnt easy.

And I do look at the map, what would make you think I don't. Be reasonable.

I agree with what he is saying, too. Look through a bunch of pro maps, and then look at yours. It looks like crap. The same thing just happened to me, and I had to spend over 5 hours prettying the old Eye of the Tiger up.

Your map is now pro terran, because seige tanks can be put in the mineral squares, making them invincible, and tanks can also own the center of the map. The huge open area won't even be used. And what is with the far away gases at 3 and 9?

The first thing I noticed was those two squares of minerals which look weird.
Second thing was all the doodads all over the map which make it look really bad like a junkyard with trash thrown all around.

Also I would fix your mineral placement in some places. Your formation is just repetitive with the straight zig zag line going down.

Also instead of four little blocks of water next to eachother why not just connect them into one line, it would look better.

I also don't like how both sides are bordered by a thin highland strip all the way down the sides. I think you could change it up to look better.

I'm not trying to make a copy of a pro map, there's open space in diffrent areas of the map, sorry all your build orders don't work on every map? Try just playing the game strait up, without doing what you've seen everyone else do. That's my theory on map making.

Good for you, I'm not here to make a lame repeat of maps I've seen before.
Then use your scouts to mine away the enemies square, problem solved. It will be used if the enemy doesn't want their enemy expanding, which happens to be fundemental part of SC, that is, killing expos before they can mature.
StarCraft is a very alien game, when I walk outside I don't expect to see waters that consist purly of oil either.
One man's trash is another man's treasure. They hinder large armies, something people were bitching about in nearly every post before I had them.
No.
Clearly you don't play this game enough to know why they can't be.

I think you should stop giving cookie cutter advice that the three people above you just mentioned. Add something new, say I agree with so and so, or don't post at all.

Map Update:
[attachmentid=7607]
Added 32 mineral patches to make a sort of half island.
Tried to make high ground more interesting.
Added bushes and such.
Still working on 8:30 2:30 spacing.
Probably adding a few critters soon.

I never thought this map would be completly balanced, though it certainly is a goal. I just want to make the map as interesting as possible. That is why it doesn't look like a promap.

ADDITION:
PS: I bet if I renamed the map JunkYard you'd all love it XD

ADDITION:
Updated map, tried Plan A to fix 8:30 2:30 expansions.
[attachmentid=7611]

I hate to see you very narrow-minded. Stop being so aggressive to everyone that says "bad" things about your map. They are actually COMMENTS!!! Wake up, you actually should be thanking us because we are trying to help you make your map better, and when I say "we" I mean EVERYONE that has posted in your thread. If I really didn't care I wouldn't post here in the first place.

And stop trying to bitch out everyone that has a negative view on some parts of your map. Be open-minded and listen to everyone's opinion. If you just want to hear the good stuff then don't bother posting again. We don't need those kind of map-makers here.

Finally I said "COMPARE" and not "COPY" other maps. When I make a map I have something in mind, and I usually compare it to other maps (or specific parts of them) to determine its balance. Then I test it. I think I've said enough.

I don't think I'm being narrow minded. About 5 people said they didn't like my map because they didn't think it looked pretty, one after another. Okay, good for you, I don't need to hear that. On another forum I got decent advice from people who knew what they were talking about, that's why I'm negetive when a site devoted to map making is worse than one which just has a small sub forum on it.
Not many people here have told me anything really, they just whined that the map looked too unatural and that it doesn't look anything like a half dozen pro maps they don't play much on.
There's a diffrence between having a negetive view on a map, and giving solid advice or pointing out an imbalance with the map that you are sure of, not just theorycrafting.

I've seen your maps, nuff said.

Sorry if my posts are coming off like "OMGZ WTF IZ RONG WIT U I H8 U 4 LIFE". That's not how I mean them. I'm just critiquing suggestions to get the most of them, or as is more common in these forums, so they don't make the same mistake somewhere else.

Hey Psyco, I'll play you melee to test it if you want. I'll be at op sen.

Entropy has even stated that it would be good if we could make balanced melee maps that would also be good to look at. That's why hundreds of people are doing all those Waterfalls, straight bridges, and reversed ramps.

Straight Jungle terrain doesn't look good, whereas if you use Space terrain and made everything straight and even it would look alot better.

But there are balance issues like everyone has stated before me. You can either take them in consideration, or just continue making maps by yourself.

And don't forget, there is only around 10-15 people that post in this melee section. You can't compare that with TeamLiquid or GosuGamers, which gets bombarded daily from thousands, and which many players are tremendously good.

Hardly anyone posts in pgt forums. There's just a few of us, and there has been a recent invasion of people who don't know what they're doing, but they aren't too troublsome. They aren't balance issues, that's my point. They're theorycrafts from people who only play bs games. Enough with the flaming. Next flame on me I'm not responding to because I'd rather not close this topic quite yet.

EDIT: I believe I'm the only one who has used backwards ramps, waterfalls would only create unecessary lag.
Entropy hasn't posted here in over a month. I came here because of a news post on another site by Entropy, talking about how melee map makers should try new things. Making things look good is a process, you start with a unique idea, and then you build upon it. Not everything thinks the beauty of a map comes from how it looks in a picture. Personally, the beuaty of a map comes from how it plays.

Im going to ignore the last ten posts.
Your last version, Psycho, is the best. It definately evens things out that were unbalanced before.

I was trying to be nice before, but I'll come out and say it: your map looks aweful. There is a reason pro-maps look good: so people will play on them. If pro maps all looked as bad as this does, BW would not be popular, period.

Minerals and doodads are scattered everywhere. I doubt if you have every played on your own map, because trying to move anything through the sides will be impossible. A group of reasonable size would get their pathing screwed up. In fact, the entire map is like that.

Even if you removed all the random doodads and minerals everywhere, zerg would still be screwed because even if they built a hatch below their ramp before they expoed they still couldn't stop early rines or zeals through the small openning into each base.

Those mineral squares are bad too. Are you expecting protoss to bring 12 probes to make a reasonably sized openning? There is more you should change, but I don't feel like spending any more time typing this up.

Show us the link to the glowing reviews at pgtour.net. Never mind, I just found it. People there don't like it either.

Okay. This map isn't meant for people who want it to look pretty, it's for people who want to try a diffrent style of gameplay. I have played on this map, several times, the people I played didn't seem to mind it so much. The ramp is close enough that zerg can simply build a creep conlony and then be close enough to sunken the ramp. The same goes with the other side =/ There's enough room behind the squares to avoid the assult, they're just there to slow down the enemy, mmkay? I never said the reviews were glowing =/ I said they were usful. If quickreflex is willing to put some time into actually helping me with the map then that's an indication to me that this map isn't a complete failure.

I'm not saying I'm a great player anymore... those guys on pgt are really fast ( I plan to play more on there soon to get better) but I at least have played the game enough to know when someone is theorycrafting. I'll make the final version of this map available to download when I'm ready (in laymens terms, I'm still working on it).

BW is popular for a number of reasons, I don't think having a few odd visually unappealing maps would have ruined the game.

I'm working on the doodad thing. I'm still trying to get this map to work, if you think it can't work at all then just say "trash this map, it'll never work". I honestly think it is fun to play, so I'll keep working on it (but I'm not going to implement ideas that I think are trashy, if you catch my drift).

Personally, I almost always hat before I expand, that's just how I play.

PS: Some of your maps wern't so hot either, clearly you're not one to talk.

Sorry if you feel it's a waste of time to post in this topic. Again, if you think it's trash, just say so, no need to type up an essay and then say there's more but you don't want to waste your time, clearly you've already wasted your time.

Alright, I don't like it, now thats that, there's nothing more for me to say in this thread

Which maps are you talking about? The island one which I removed after 30 minutes? Bill helped me with Azure Glory, and I feel that Eye of the Tiger is good as well. Do you mean Ode to Legend? It doesn't matter which one, actually, becuase I don't even have to make maps to comment on them, I just have to play.




You can't wait for the creep colony to extend its creep before you start planting sunkens, because you won't have enough when the first attack comes. What calibur players were you playing? Even if you hat before you expand, you still can't cover both chokes at once. A good player would scout which one is being sunkened and attack.

This map needs to be canned, it seems like you just made the map as an excuse to make backwards ramps. Try posting this on a good site like teamliquid.net and you will find that I am not the only one that feels as I do.

From now on, it is best not to insult the people who try to help you. If you think you are that much better than me at SC, I'll 1:1 you on temple.