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Staredit Network -> Miscellaneous -> Say NO to the OSMAP discussion war

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Xx.Doom.xX on 2007-01-30 at 16:00:41

HolySin is one person here that knows what he's talking about and what we're dealing with here.
No one on Battle.net knows what OSMAP is if they have not gone to this site or maplantis, and possibly a few other StarCraft websites. So if you guys are afraid of people stealing your map, it's like your afraid of a spider. No maps have been have been stolen with OSMAP. I don't know why we can't all just stop arguing and talking about this "war" and making all these topics. Why can't anti-OSMAPers and OSMAP supporters, SEN and Maplantis, settle our differences and get on with our StarCraft life. Talking about it doesn't help, it doesn't change anything that has happened, if anyone here hasn't noticed. No more OSMAP discussion wars.

And for some of you who don't seem to understand, stop dissing Maplantis. And you know who you are. You don't see any of us dissing SEN, do you? If we were I wouldn't be here.

QUOTE(Deathawk)

Shouldn't the choice lie on the map creator, who put his time into the work, and made it for other peoples entertainment..?

The map creator should respect the fact that other mappers want to update their maps to make them better and funner. Sorry, but mappers don't have a choice anymore. Use useless protection or just leave your maps open for editing and looking at.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by [SmC]DiNO-X on 2007-01-30 at 16:06:47

I think that what happen in maplantis shouldn't be discussed here.

The OSMAP is (I can say) "NOOB Tool"
If you're good enough you don't need to use it, for the triggers exist TrgView so whats the problem?

Doesn't matter if someone use OSMAP you can't avoid it. At least until someone do a new protector. Don't mess with this around

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Xx.Doom.xX on 2007-01-30 at 16:09:58

QUOTE([SmC]DiNO-X @ Jan 30 2007, 04:06 PM)

I think that what happen in maplantis shouldn't be discussed here.

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OSMAP is not a noob tool. Don't post here if you don't know what your talking about. A new protector is not going to help at all, if you think it will.
"for the triggers exist TrgView so whats the problem?" - People don't always want to just look at the triggers. There's also terrain, etc.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by [SmC]DiNO-X on 2007-01-30 at 16:37:25

Maybe you're right.
Still i don't like OSMAP

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Golden-Fist on 2007-01-30 at 18:51:24

QUOTE(Deathawk @ Jan 30 2007, 03:56 PM)

Shouldn't the choice lie on the map creator, who put his time into the work, and made it for other peoples entertainment..?
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Keywords are "other peoples entertainment". If your purpose of creating the map was so other people have fun, mission successful! They are having fun! Even if it means opening it and editing it. It is their way of having fun.

Players are just as important as the map creator. Without the map creator, there would be no map. Without people playing it, nobody would know that map existed.

The argument now is that "I want to control what happens with my map". You didn't say WHY you want to control this. What are good reasons for you to control access to your map like this that outweigh the counter-argument?

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Deathawk on 2007-01-30 at 19:05:51

Do you believe that the author of the map, although, does not legally own it, should be able to choose what he or she wants to do with the map he or she created? There shouldn't have to be a reason like "it helps mappers" and stuff, because we should be respecting the people who put work into the maps they made, and the people that may not want their maps open to the public for editting without their consent.. =\

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mini Moose 2707 on 2007-01-30 at 19:32:45

QUOTE(BeeR_KeG @ Jan 29 2007, 08:24 PM)

(Note that you do not own a .scx/.scm file, it is the sole property of Blizzard and therefore you cannot do anything about someone protecting a map so that you can't see it or someone unprotecting your map)

Blizzard step in? Yeah, like the gods humanity worships are throwing down lightning bolts and plagues upon all the murders and evildoers in the world.

QUOTE(Laser_Dude @ Jan 29 2007, 08:04 PM)

Well, I think SeN should be neutral, as opposed to being super anti-open source.

We are? Yes, your warn was unfair, but I don't anything about us being "anti-open source". Otherwise, I'd trash the Project Graveyard and have the keepers sweep the DLDB of every unprotected map.

QUOTE(Mp)Excalibur @ Jan 30 2007, 04:51 AM)

LW, the man who is now responsible for the unprotection of our maps, used to keep them out of the hands we the makers deemed unfit, and we took that in its entirety for granted. Now, we have no such safe guards, we dont even have the person who was there to help us. I said when LW admitted to making OSMAP that i wished so greatly it was someone else, so we might have stood a chance. But such as it is, that is the situation.

The best part of this is, LW gave everyone not only OSMAP, but also the source code, effectively throwing out any way of ever going back. Eventually the anger no longer stems from unprotection of maps, but rather the fact that someone else made these irreversible decisions entirely for all of us without our consent. So yeah, your arguing is futile so long as there are some decent programmers among us.

Never having protection in the first place wouldn't really bother me because I wouldn't have known of it. Having it and then having it taken away is a bit different. I hope I've helped someone find the source of their anger so we can start calming down.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Chef on 2007-01-30 at 20:48:50

QUOTE

rather the fact that someone else made these irreversible decisions entirely for all of us without our consent.

It's not like the creaters of protection software ever asked for the consent of the entire community, much less the actual owners, Blizzard. The creators of protection software denied the community access to public (well, Blizzard's) property. The intentions of the creaters of protection software was good. So were the intentions of OSMap's creater. Neither asked everyone if they should do it though.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Centreri on 2007-01-30 at 20:55:33

And it's not like half of the mapping community thought protection was bad...

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mini Moose 2707 on 2007-01-30 at 21:06:43

QUOTE(Chef @ Jan 30 2007, 09:48 PM)

It's not like the creaters of protection software ever asked for the consent of the entire community, much less the actual owners, Blizzard.

Invidivual mappers gave their consent when they used protection. There was no global effect that would require everyone's consent (unless someone ran around protecting and releasing other people's maps... which would be equally as bad as unprotection in my opinion).

As for Blizzard, I've said...

QUOTE(Mini Moose 2707 @ Jan 30 2007, 08:32 PM)

Blizzard step in? Yeah, like the gods humanity worships are throwing down lightning bolts and plagues upon all the murders and evildoers in the world.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Golden-Fist on 2007-01-30 at 21:23:21

QUOTE(Deathawk @ Jan 30 2007, 07:05 PM)

It's not a question about respecting what they want. I will respect it, if theres a good enough reason. I still ask you, WHY shouldn't people be allowed to? Simply because they say so?

I'm telling you to stay home for the next month. Am I giving you a reason? No. Are you going to listen? No, because its unreasonable and theres no justification.

Don't give me BS that its "their map and they have the right to refuse you". It is a COPY of a map, keep that in mind and tell me some reasons why you would want to keep other people out of your map.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Chef on 2007-01-30 at 21:24:04

QUOTE

Invidivual mappers gave their consent when they used protection.

I suppose an individual mapper is allowed to give his consent for the entire public? What?

I was pointing out hypocrisy, not a viewpoint.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mini Moose 2707 on 2007-01-30 at 21:51:29

He's allowed to give consent for his own map. Assuming that he owns it, of course.

Regardless of ownership, I am still questioning if consent for the whole community is needed. Please don't disregard the rest of my post.

QUOTE(Mini Moose 2707 @ Jan 30 2007, 10:06 PM)

There was no global effect that would require everyone's consent (unless someone ran around protecting and releasing other people's maps... which would be equally as bad as unprotection in my opinion).

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Deathawk on 2007-01-30 at 22:14:08

QUOTE(Golden-Fist @ Jan 30 2007, 10:23 PM)

Is the fact that they put their effort into the map for other people's entertainment and their intentions by protecting their map were for you to not open the map up be enough for you to not open their map? If not, then that's pretty inconsiderate, especially considering the person made the map for other peoples entertainment..

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Chef on 2007-01-30 at 22:19:01

QUOTE

Okay, here are the 'global effects' of each.

OSMap: An individual can ACCESS any (not really, the program isn't absolute) map in the community.

Map Protection: An individual can DENY ACCESS to any map in the community, usually his own.

Anyone who downloads a map which has had either program used on it is effected. So yeah, both methods effect people 'globally'.

QUOTE

Assuming that he owns it, of course.

Technically he doesn't, so that point is moot.

To get even more off topic, I think there are virtues to both inventions. The obvious virtue of map protection, is that the creater can limit the versions of the map available on B.Net, so that people don't end up with 20 different kinds of the game. However, way more than half the time the map sucks anyway, and needs vamping (which the original creater is just too dense/lazy to do). Which is the obvious advantage of OSMap (after being a good learning tool). As far as credit goes... people need to get over themselves. If you're a good map maker people will know who you are, regardless of how many times you plaster your name into a map.

Both have their good points.

QUOTE

I am still questioning if consent for the whole community is needed.

If it's needed for one program, it's unjust to pull a double standard on the other program, simply because of personal beliefs.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Legend on 2007-01-30 at 22:34:24

Hmm..... Not to Kill the Topic and all or to offend anyone but it seems that ur fighting for "Protection and unprotection" of maps.

My Beliefs is that ALL SC MAPS Belong to Blizzard. [Even if u bought the game].

Blizzard is the only one who should decide about map protections (if they would)... and I asked a fellow

Blizzard Senior Employe on SC about "Map Protection" and he said that its actually "ILLEGAL" to "Hack"[ I im not sure why he said that] Blizzard Property.

In my mind I Strongly Believe Map Protection/UnProtection shouldn't Exist for 3 Reasons
1)Sites like this of a Great Community Fall Apart [Believe it or Not]
2)Friends Become your Enemies.
3)Topics Like this Happen [Debate and sometimes....Flame]

As I Said the Facts is were actually Screwing with Blizzard Property(Map Protection).

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Neiji on 2007-01-30 at 23:09:49

QUOTE

My Beliefs is that ALL SC MAPS Belong to Blizzard. [Even if u bought the game].

QUOTE

Blizzard step in? Yeah, like the gods humanity worships are throwing down lightning bolts and plagues upon all the murders and evildoers in the world.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by DT_Battlekruser on 2007-01-30 at 23:35:32

QUOTE

Sorry, but mappers don't have a choice anymore.

Like I said, it's a moral argument. Some people, like you, believe that mappers have no right to their maps as their intellectual property. While I find such views to be morally revolting, there is the logical and absolute answer to a moral question.

QUOTE

Map Protection: An individual can DENY ACCESS to any map in the community, usually his own.

This, however, is little short of a lie.

Using a protection program, an individual can completely deny access to ONLY HIS OWN maps and NEVER someone else's map. If you make a map, nobody can stop you from releasing it open-source, and I respect that right just as much as I respect the right to protect your map.

Like Moose said, if a program existed that forced people to protect their maps, that would the same evil I see OSMAP as.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Chef on 2007-01-30 at 23:56:47

I said it was a moral argument too

I think they're the same because you're making choices (in the case of map protection, choices you don't actually have a legal right to make) for people you don't know.

QUOTE

Using a protection program, an individual can completely deny access to ONLY HIS OWN maps and NEVER someone else's map. If you make a map, nobody can stop you from releasing it open-source, and I respect that right just as much as I respect the right to protect your map.

You're right, my mistake. You could still upload it somewhere no one knew about the OS copy though ;D

QUOTE

Some people, like you, believe that mappers have no right to their maps as their intellectual property.

...and some people simply believe mapping in general will be better without protection. It's not about taking away people's 'rights' (technically these don't exist in mapping), it's about bringing StarCraft back to its purist form.

PS: There are still ways to protect maps that can't be cracked by OSMap. So technically, you all still have just as much ability as ever to keep your maps from being edited. You just have to be slightly more intelligent now, because it's not mainstream yet.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Syphon on 2007-01-31 at 00:11:58

On a semi-related note, would it be OK to take every open map I have, protect, resave under the same name and host on B.Net? Eventually that map'd become closed from the general public.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Chef on 2007-01-31 at 00:21:35

Taking into account you'd have to be their only source ;P

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Golden-Fist on 2007-01-31 at 01:13:58

Ok, drop the whole "IF YOU OPEN A MAP YOU DO NOT HAVE A SOUL" trash, it is not an argument it is just dodging the real issue. I asked a simple question that was ignored. Why wouldn't you want anyone to open your map? For what reason would it benefit both the creator and the player to not be able to use something like OSmap to open your map with?

Rigging and Map Stealing are not answers. We both know stealing is uncommon, and determined people will find out other methods anyway. Rigging is true, but its not a good enough answer to stop EVERYONE from opening a map, 1% of the community should not ruin it for 99% of it. The tool which lets you rig maps is Staredit itself, and it doesnt matter, some people create maps that are rigged to begin with. It is not an effective solution.

So, someone answer me. Why is it so important that nobody opens your map?

Report, edit, etc...Posted by DT_Battlekruser on 2007-01-31 at 01:55:23

QUOTE

Why wouldn't you want anyone to open your map? For what reason would it benefit both the creator and the player to not be able to use something like OSmap to open your map with?

It doesn't matter why. If someone wants to protect their own creation, they deserve to have the right to do so.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Golden-Fist on 2007-01-31 at 02:10:41

QUOTE(DT_Battlekruser @ Jan 31 2007, 01:55 AM)

It doesn't matter why. If someone wants to protect their own creation, they deserve to have the right to do so.
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Stop dodging the question. It does matter why, it is the reason why I would or would not open another's map. They do NOT have the right to censor the map from everyone for absolutely no reason. If you don't want me opening your map, you give me a good reason why I shouldn't that is better for both me and you. Morales have to be based upon something in mutual interest.

If you have no reason why, then your argument is baseless, and you shoudn't be protecting your maps, because you have no reason to do so.

Personally, you've been shifting the subject to morality, which is completely unrelated. I might open your map but I'll still have the morales to leave your name on it. What you are talking about is following your OWN personal morales that you want to push onto other people. i don't think there is a valid reason why you'd want to protect your own map against people opening it or editing it, except for one: Ego. Greed for fame. You think that people should have to acknowledge your existence and beg you for changes to remind you that you're number 1. You want to control who has access to your map so you can refuse anything that your mighty ego doesn't approve of. You want to limit what people can do simply because you spent 5 hours on such a small project that you everyone should know that you made it and your name would never dare be beside someone else's. You're afraid that you won't be as important to the map if someone else does anything with it, and people won't have to suck up to you everytime they see you. Simply put, greed. You cannot stand losing such power and control. When your map is protected, you feel in control and envied You have something of which you control access to. When OSmap came out, you weren't worried about map stealing or rigging, you are worried about the loss of control. Now people don't need to beg you for help and changes, they can do it themselves without you interfering. The idiots who are leaving because of OSmap are only doing it because they don't map for other people or fun, they map for greed and glory.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Deathawk on 2007-01-31 at 07:22:49

QUOTE(Golden-Fist @ Jan 31 2007, 03:10 AM)

There are other reasons like so it doesn't get editted/rigged, doesn't get stolen, there isn't 100 different versions etc. But none of that matters, because it's the creators map, and they should be able to choose whether or not their map is editted or not, even if it is for greed or glory.

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