Report, edit, etc...Posted by BroodKiller on 2006-07-17 at 10:09:24
No, it's the "Use Tech" damage type that is in fact "Ignore Armor". Unknown is the one left, apart from Normal, Expolosive and Concussive.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DiscipleOfAdun on 2006-07-17 at 10:10:17
Oh, it isn't that I would rather forget about it...it is just going to be at the back of my brain until I get somewhere on it. Don't worry, I'm not going to overly concern myself on it. I'll probably do it when I get sick of coding today. I can only take so much 
.
.Report, edit, etc...Posted by TERRAINFIGHTER on 2006-07-17 at 10:14:02
I just looked at the entries using it, and it appears to either be "none" or "EXE Controlled"
After all, every entry using it has a direct connection to the exe which it uses for orders on how to run/act
After all, every entry using it has a direct connection to the exe which it uses for orders on how to run/act
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DiscipleOfAdun on 2006-07-17 at 10:18:00
Exe Controlled? 
Well now...that's interesting.
Let me see if I understand. First attack does no damage, second does 1? Could that be what stops spells like Optical flare from doing damage even when they have it set...?
Well now...that's interesting.Let me see if I understand. First attack does no damage, second does 1? Could that be what stops spells like Optical flare from doing damage even when they have it set...?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by BroodKiller on 2006-07-17 at 10:23:01
Yeah, that may be it. It's the same as you set the unit's Size property to Independent, just that the action is inverted. No matter where the attack come from and what weapons are fired, only each 2nd of them will cause the 1HP drop. Funny enough, this applies to spells too, because I tried it with Yamato Gun, and only the 2nd shot did the job. To make it even MORE interesting, this 2nd shot came from a different BC unit than the first one...
Blizzard definitely put their hands on some serious smoky things...
Blizzard definitely put their hands on some serious smoky things...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by TERRAINFIGHTER on 2006-07-17 at 10:24:15
I just did some more testing, and I'm 100% sure it's "EXE Controlled"
want proof?
Each and every entry using it has a associated order with it in orders.dat,
which tells it which orders to use in the exe for further instructions
why does it's second attack take off one if used for normal attacks?
This is most likely the default behaviour for the Entry ID's,
and orders.dat has to instruct them to use a differant behaviour that's hardcoded in the EXE to give it the desired effects.
P.S. in orders.dat, maelstrom is mispelled and says maelstorm
want proof?
Each and every entry using it has a associated order with it in orders.dat,
which tells it which orders to use in the exe for further instructions
why does it's second attack take off one if used for normal attacks?
This is most likely the default behaviour for the Entry ID's,
and orders.dat has to instruct them to use a differant behaviour that's hardcoded in the EXE to give it the desired effects.
P.S. in orders.dat, maelstrom is mispelled and says maelstorm
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DiscipleOfAdun on 2006-07-17 at 10:30:22
Meaning possibly that an orders.dat flag could be involved....hmm I'm getting to think this is really into the code. I want to look at it eventually now. Besides, since orders possibly control it, I would use the info in FG, if I get adding in new orders.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by TERRAINFIGHTER on 2006-07-17 at 10:32:13
Well, I'm not really sure if Orders.dat sends it the behaviour information or the exe,
but I think orders.dat sends it most the information and then re-directs it to a order in the exe.
there's just 1 more thing that confuses me though, how does it know which orders.dat Id # to use?
but I think orders.dat sends it most the information and then re-directs it to a order in the exe.
there's just 1 more thing that confuses me though, how does it know which orders.dat Id # to use?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DiscipleOfAdun on 2006-07-17 at 10:36:26
Because the train goes like this:
when you tell it to use a spell, you push a button. Based on the act var, you get the right order running. the order then uses the tech and weapon properties to do stuff. I know for use the energy required is read from the tech property, and the castspell iscript order uses the weapon that is set. basically, it's not weapons to orders...which is probably why some of the research doesn't seem to make any sense. it ends up that the order tells what weapon to use.
when you tell it to use a spell, you push a button. Based on the act var, you get the right order running. the order then uses the tech and weapon properties to do stuff. I know for use the energy required is read from the tech property, and the castspell iscript order uses the weapon that is set. basically, it's not weapons to orders...which is probably why some of the research doesn't seem to make any sense. it ends up that the order tells what weapon to use.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by BroodKiller on 2006-07-17 at 10:40:36
The fact that there is an orders.dat entry that points to a weapons doesn't necessarilly mean that it's EXE-controlled. There are other weapons that does have their orders.dat entries, but don't use this damage type, like Lockdown or Yamato Gun for example.
As for the weapons->orders linkage...maybe the weapon and order has the same entry ID? Can't check it right now myself, so just guessing.
EDIT:Argh! DoA, you beat me to it...
As for the weapons->orders linkage...maybe the weapon and order has the same entry ID? Can't check it right now myself, so just guessing.
EDIT:Argh! DoA, you beat me to it...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by TERRAINFIGHTER on 2006-07-17 at 10:47:15
I know that DoA, but I didn't remember is to check that part 
and no BroodKiller, it's not connected like that since they both use differant ID #'s
and no BroodKiller, it's not connected like that since they both use differant ID #'s
Report, edit, etc...Posted by BroodKiller on 2006-07-17 at 10:49:26
Anyways, the final conclusion of our little brainstorm is that it is not EXE-controlled, right? Or did I miss something..?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by TERRAINFIGHTER on 2006-07-17 at 11:06:19
Yes that is our conclusion, but it should still be kept open as a possibility since it explains everything,
even though some things go against it.
even though some things go against it.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by nirvanajung on 2006-07-17 at 11:42:31
QUOTE(BroodKiller @ Jul 17 2006, 05:40 AM)
But you did say "advanced modder", which, to me at least, describes the person's level of modding proficiency, and not the complexity of projects they're making.
hey~! so i did adding description for Advanced modder meaning in my posts
like this "it's just apply to high Advanced modder who work with use a great numbers of source files"
u can see that description in last line
http://www.staredit.net/index.php?showtopi...ndpost&p=524244
r u really did read all my posts ?
hey man~! u r closed mind u r so silly
Anyways u r silly or not u missed that
QUOTE
You hit the spot - that's the feeling I got from your previous posts.
so then why said like that
"Oh, and if you look back a few pages, you'd see that BSTRhino gave up AZ for DatEdit, and I wouldn't call him a "light modder", y'know."
i didn't said about Datedit user's capacity
so anyhow, u r missetanked to me, right?
QUOTE
Oh,please...man,I don't give a damn if you do or don't -
right~! don't silly man~! that's wat i hope to u
QUOTE
it's just that it is sometimes hard to get what do you mean. 
If there are any voluntary testers around here, I have an assignement for ya
In weapons.dat, there is an "unknown" damage type. It is used by several spells, but my research on the standard weapons has shown that it works the "Independent" way, that is it deals 1 point of damage every 2nd attack. I wonder why do the spells use it? Could someone please experiment with it?
If there are any voluntary testers around here, I have an assignement for ya
In weapons.dat, there is an "unknown" damage type. It is used by several spells, but my research on the standard weapons has shown that it works the "Independent" way, that is it deals 1 point of damage every 2nd attack. I wonder why do the spells use it? Could someone please experiment with it?
right basically DatEdit is give description more, but i already write AZ's libraries document and sometimes, i updates that document from this modding fourum's
thread
i already build my workspace and configure structure to direct find each varriable
in my used Text Editor
so u don't have to say about that for me at least
Return to Subject BK~! don't silly
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DiscipleOfAdun on 2006-07-17 at 11:55:32
QUOTE(BroodKiller @ Jul 17 2006, 08:49 AM)
Anyways, the final conclusion of our little brainstorm is that it is not EXE-controlled, right? Or did I miss something..?
[right][snapback]525360[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]525360[/snapback][/right]
QUOTE(TERRAINFIGHTER @ Jul 17 2006, 09:05 AM)
Yes that is our conclusion, but it should still be kept open as a possibility since it explains everything,
even though some things go against it.
[right][snapback]525366[/snapback][/right]
even though some things go against it.
[right][snapback]525366[/snapback][/right]
Okay. I was right, searching for it gave me something for FG that I knew would help. When damage is calculated, it is based on both the attack type, and the size of the target. You know that. Well, here's what the exe says(which you mostly already know too...):
Attack type Unknown
Size independant = 0% of damage
Size small = 0% of damage
size med = 0% of damage
size large = 0% of damage
Attack type Explosive
size independant = 0% of damage
size small = 50% of damage
size med = 75% of damage
size large = 100% of damage
and so on..., with concussive having 0, 50, 25, 100, and both normal and use tech haveing 0, 100, 100, 100.
So, the original assesment was right, it acts just like if the unit had independant size.
What I found is that I can change the constants for the attack percentages...meaning FG will allow changes to the percentage of damage taken from different attacks...more cool stuff....
And that's 300. Green is good...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by TERRAINFIGHTER on 2006-07-17 at 12:20:59
I guess it should be called "Non Damaging" instead of independant then
Report, edit, etc...Posted by BroodKiller on 2006-07-17 at 12:30:15
I think it should remain like that, because it automatically recalls the same character as the Independent size.
DoA>This is friggin' awesome If it eventualy comes to full customization, then the Damage types should rather be labeled "Damage Type1", "Damage Type2" etc...
Oh...and the "Use Tech" damage type is in fact "Ignore Armor". I wonder how THIS effect is done...?Any ideas?
...and still counting
DoA>This is friggin' awesome
If it eventualy comes to full customization, then the Damage types should rather be labeled "Damage Type1", "Damage Type2" etc...Oh...and the "Use Tech" damage type is in fact "Ignore Armor". I wonder how THIS effect is done...?Any ideas?
...and still counting
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Rikimbo on 2006-07-17 at 12:35:30
QUOTE(DiscipleOfAdun @ Jul 17 2006, 10:55 AM)
and so on..., with concussive having 0, 50, 25, 100, and both normal and use tech haveing 0, 100, 100, 100.
[right][snapback]525383[/snapback][/right]
So you're saying concussive damage is:
size independant = 0% of damage
size small = 50% of damage
size med = 25% of damage
size large = 100% of damage
I thought concussive was supposed to be effective against small units and ineffective against the large units... I guess I've been wrong about that?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DiscipleOfAdun on 2006-07-17 at 16:34:06
Umm, they aren't in order. I was going fast, so I just typed the percentages without caring what order they were in. Concussive does 100% to small, 50% to med, and 25% to large units, and 0% to independant.
Also, even though it is 0%, it still does 1 damage every two attacks. That happens because the percentage shifting still has .5 damage given.
Also, even though it is 0%, it still does 1 damage every two attacks. That happens because the percentage shifting still has .5 damage given.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Lord_Agamemnon(MM) on 2006-07-17 at 17:05:50
Yep, I read about the .5 damage thing somewhere...
Oh, while we're talking about renaming stuff, should we change the name of the behavior "Sub. Spines (Burst)"? It doesn't seem very descriptive of what it actually does--namely, go through the target until it hits the max range. If you decide to leave it, that's fine; I just think it could be named more accurately, and we already changed "Line splash" to "Splash(enemy)" thus setting a precedent of making names actually represent what the options actually do. I'd recommend calling it "Goes through target" or something.
Oh, while we're talking about renaming stuff, should we change the name of the behavior "Sub. Spines (Burst)"? It doesn't seem very descriptive of what it actually does--namely, go through the target until it hits the max range. If you decide to leave it, that's fine; I just think it could be named more accurately, and we already changed "Line splash" to "Splash(enemy)" thus setting a precedent of making names actually represent what the options actually do. I'd recommend calling it "Goes through target" or something.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by TERRAINFIGHTER on 2006-07-17 at 17:09:47
Another thing you could call it is "Ligned Attack"
and since it seems noone noticed this over the many years,
the only reason it's a sub attack is because of the iscript, not weapons.dat
and since it seems noone noticed this over the many years,
the only reason it's a sub attack is because of the iscript, not weapons.dat
Report, edit, etc...Posted by BroodKiller on 2006-07-18 at 06:26:42
#####DATEDIT v1.1 Update#####
Hello children, it's Uncle Broody here. It's been some time since we last met, has it not? Although it's not yet Christmas, I brought you some gifts to play with. No, you don't need to thank me...
Fixed/changed:
-Now reads and writes the unit's portrait properly. It turned out that the "No Portrait" value is not anything above the amount of portraits (220, hex 0xDC), which caused the game to crash, but precisely the value 0xFFFF, which works just fine.
-Thanks to the research of various people, several properties have been researched and their meaning discovered:
1)The "Unknown" weapon behaviour is now "Psionic Storm"
2)The "Neutral" advanced flag in now "Single Entity"
3)The Flingy.dat format is now complete, with heavy changes reflected in the editor
4)Sprites.dat Unknown2 is now "Is Visible"
5)Units.dat "Subunit Range" is now "Target Acquisition Range"
6)Weapons.dat "Use Tech" damage type is now "Ignore Armor"
7)weapons.dat "Unknown" damage type is now "Independent"
8)Weapons.dat "Use Tech" property is now "Unused"
Special thanks flies to: ShadowFlare, BSTRhino, DiscipleOfAdun, Ojan, TERRAINFIGHTER and Darktossgen(MM).
-The layout was modified. The "Movement/Sound" Units Editor's subtab is now "Sounds" only. Unit Dimensions and the dimension Preview were moved to the Graphics subtab, the "Movement flags" to the Advanced subtab. "Subunits" were also moved to the Advanced subtab. The "Unused" property in Weapons.dat exchanged places with the "Explosion" property.
-The layout was enhanced. The Images Editor is improved, allowing drop-down selection of the GRP files and Overlays. Same improvements concern the Campaign, Portrait and Sound Editors, as well as the "Sounds" tab of the Units Editor.
-Now using system dialog boxes - the old ones were ugly
-Improved various Hints.
-Optimized the TBL-reading routine, which means the program should start faster now (especially on low-end processors).
-Unsaved DAT Exporting now works fine.
-Different viewing options are now hotkey-ed to: ALT+1-Sort by Data;ALT+2-Sort by Origin;ALT+3-Sort by ID
-The History list supports MPQs and not only DATs.
New in DatEdit v1.1:
-MPQ Support
Yes, you heard it correctly - from now DatEdit is able to operate off MPQs alone. No more DATs cluttering up your hard drives, no more "Where the f*ck is that file?!", no more "Damn...which mod does THIS belong to....". You edit the files just as usual, but the program automatically carries out the MPQ importing/exporting stuff.
This feature works in a simple way: instead of a DAT file, you select your MPQ archive with "Load File", and then the DatEdit-compatible files (and ONLY them!) are automatically exported to a temporary directory in the DatEdit's folder (they're removed when the application closes or another MPQ archive is opened) and opened for you to do the editing. In order to automatically save all the imported files back to your MPQ you use the new "Return MPQ Export" option in the File menu or use the CTRL+R hotkey. Unsaved modifications will be exported just fine, you don't need to save them before return-exporting.
DatEdit will report to you what files it has found in the designated MPQ archive, but in case you forget it later here's a hint - look at the path shown at the bottom of the application window: files imported from an MPQ will be put inside a "temp\mpq" subdirectory of the directory you keep DatEdit in.
A VERY important fact to know is that when you open an MPQ, DatEdit enters a "Protected" mode of operation. This means that while you're editing the content of an MPQ archive, the editors for DATs that were NOT found in the MPQ are disabled and hidden. For more, "Options" and "Reload Default" menu items are disabled too, as are Bookmarks for the disabled editors.
You may not like it, but it was necessary to prevent errors caused by TBLs/Icons ambiguities. Just live with it. DatEdit returns to the "Standard" mode when you "Return Export" the data, or when you open a DAT file or a DAT folder.
-Right-click list popup menu
It contains the most useful options (to my mind at least):Copying,Pasting and bookmarking the currently selected entry as well as the Quick Bookmarks.
-Bookmarking (per public request)
DatEd v1.1 introduces this nice feature per request of nirvanajung and Rikimbo. Each editor has its own bookmarks that are preserved between sessions and you can clear the currently used editor's bookmark list as well or clear them all. Bookmarks related to the currently used editor are also avaialable via the right-click popup menu (aka Quick Bookmarks).
Remember though that bookmarks are not specific, meaning they're barely pointing to an entry in a DAT file, no matter what file you're currently working on. This limits their usage to one project at a time, but if you want you can just put a copy of DatEdit in a different folder and then it'll have its own bookmarks.
NOTE:This "issue" will NOT be addressed, so don't even bother asking
Get the program here, and the source here.
I'd like to say that this build MAY NOT be 100% stable when it comes to the new features. This is because I didn't have time to all the usual tests on them, just the most important of them. Given this, I do NOT announce yet this release on other sites (SA,SCL,SC.ORG,SME etc.), unless I am certain that it is stable, which is now your job to verify
You may notice that contrarily to what I was saying, there is no TBL-editing in v1.1. I decided to remove it, so that I can polish it and enhance it to a satisfactory level. Which means that most probably there WILL be a v1.2 release somewhere in the future.
Keep chillin'
-BK
Hello children, it's Uncle Broody here. It's been some time since we last met, has it not? Although it's not yet Christmas, I brought you some gifts to play with. No, you don't need to thank me...
Fixed/changed:
-Now reads and writes the unit's portrait properly. It turned out that the "No Portrait" value is not anything above the amount of portraits (220, hex 0xDC), which caused the game to crash, but precisely the value 0xFFFF, which works just fine.
-Thanks to the research of various people, several properties have been researched and their meaning discovered:
1)The "Unknown" weapon behaviour is now "Psionic Storm"
2)The "Neutral" advanced flag in now "Single Entity"
3)The Flingy.dat format is now complete, with heavy changes reflected in the editor
4)Sprites.dat Unknown2 is now "Is Visible"
5)Units.dat "Subunit Range" is now "Target Acquisition Range"
6)Weapons.dat "Use Tech" damage type is now "Ignore Armor"
7)weapons.dat "Unknown" damage type is now "Independent"
8)Weapons.dat "Use Tech" property is now "Unused"
Special thanks flies to: ShadowFlare, BSTRhino, DiscipleOfAdun, Ojan, TERRAINFIGHTER and Darktossgen(MM).
-The layout was modified. The "Movement/Sound" Units Editor's subtab is now "Sounds" only. Unit Dimensions and the dimension Preview were moved to the Graphics subtab, the "Movement flags" to the Advanced subtab. "Subunits" were also moved to the Advanced subtab. The "Unused" property in Weapons.dat exchanged places with the "Explosion" property.
-The layout was enhanced. The Images Editor is improved, allowing drop-down selection of the GRP files and Overlays. Same improvements concern the Campaign, Portrait and Sound Editors, as well as the "Sounds" tab of the Units Editor.
-Now using system dialog boxes - the old ones were ugly
-Improved various Hints.
-Optimized the TBL-reading routine, which means the program should start faster now (especially on low-end processors).
-Unsaved DAT Exporting now works fine.
-Different viewing options are now hotkey-ed to: ALT+1-Sort by Data;ALT+2-Sort by Origin;ALT+3-Sort by ID
-The History list supports MPQs and not only DATs.
New in DatEdit v1.1:
-MPQ Support
Yes, you heard it correctly - from now DatEdit is able to operate off MPQs alone. No more DATs cluttering up your hard drives, no more "Where the f*ck is that file?!", no more "Damn...which mod does THIS belong to....". You edit the files just as usual, but the program automatically carries out the MPQ importing/exporting stuff.
This feature works in a simple way: instead of a DAT file, you select your MPQ archive with "Load File", and then the DatEdit-compatible files (and ONLY them!) are automatically exported to a temporary directory in the DatEdit's folder (they're removed when the application closes or another MPQ archive is opened) and opened for you to do the editing. In order to automatically save all the imported files back to your MPQ you use the new "Return MPQ Export" option in the File menu or use the CTRL+R hotkey. Unsaved modifications will be exported just fine, you don't need to save them before return-exporting.
DatEdit will report to you what files it has found in the designated MPQ archive, but in case you forget it later here's a hint - look at the path shown at the bottom of the application window: files imported from an MPQ will be put inside a "temp\mpq" subdirectory of the directory you keep DatEdit in.
A VERY important fact to know is that when you open an MPQ, DatEdit enters a "Protected" mode of operation. This means that while you're editing the content of an MPQ archive, the editors for DATs that were NOT found in the MPQ are disabled and hidden. For more, "Options" and "Reload Default" menu items are disabled too, as are Bookmarks for the disabled editors.
You may not like it, but it was necessary to prevent errors caused by TBLs/Icons ambiguities. Just live with it. DatEdit returns to the "Standard" mode when you "Return Export" the data, or when you open a DAT file or a DAT folder.
-Right-click list popup menu
It contains the most useful options (to my mind at least):Copying,Pasting and bookmarking the currently selected entry as well as the Quick Bookmarks.
-Bookmarking (per public request)
DatEd v1.1 introduces this nice feature per request of nirvanajung and Rikimbo. Each editor has its own bookmarks that are preserved between sessions and you can clear the currently used editor's bookmark list as well or clear them all. Bookmarks related to the currently used editor are also avaialable via the right-click popup menu (aka Quick Bookmarks).
Remember though that bookmarks are not specific, meaning they're barely pointing to an entry in a DAT file, no matter what file you're currently working on. This limits their usage to one project at a time, but if you want you can just put a copy of DatEdit in a different folder and then it'll have its own bookmarks.
NOTE:This "issue" will NOT be addressed, so don't even bother asking
Get the program here, and the source here.
I'd like to say that this build MAY NOT be 100% stable when it comes to the new features. This is because I didn't have time to all the usual tests on them, just the most important of them. Given this, I do NOT announce yet this release on other sites (SA,SCL,SC.ORG,SME etc.), unless I am certain that it is stable, which is now your job to verify
You may notice that contrarily to what I was saying, there is no TBL-editing in v1.1. I decided to remove it, so that I can polish it and enhance it to a satisfactory level. Which means that most probably there WILL be a v1.2 release somewhere in the future.
Keep chillin'
-BK
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Ihjel on 2006-07-18 at 09:22:58
sweet.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by TERRAINFIGHTER on 2006-07-18 at 11:09:07
Very good update, it works faster and has alot less unknowns
a few things I noticed:
there's no re-open DAT directory function
units.dat's basic tab has a small line in it that does nothing, except make it look uggly
also, I think I might have figured out what some unknowns in sounds.dat are for,
I think unknown 1 is sound level, and unknown 2 is sound priority, but I can't test either of these so can someone else do it?
a few things I noticed:
there's no re-open DAT directory function
units.dat's basic tab has a small line in it that does nothing, except make it look uggly
also, I think I might have figured out what some unknowns in sounds.dat are for,
I think unknown 1 is sound level, and unknown 2 is sound priority, but I can't test either of these so can someone else do it?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Lord_Agamemnon(MM) on 2006-07-18 at 12:16:18
BroodKiller is my god.
Can we get that Sub. Spines label update in the next release?
BTW, that is one awesome splash screen. Kudos to Ermac.
Can we get that Sub. Spines label update in the next release?
BTW, that is one awesome splash screen. Kudos to Ermac.