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If you think that programming is harder than UMS, and melee is harder than programming, then melee is harder than UMS. Do you not see that? And you kept arguing that I could not talk about UMS because it was copmlicated and I have no idea how hard it is... now you are saying that programming is harder, and the aforementioned is still true? The f*ck ?

-

I took out money maps because they share nothing in common with the rest of melee. It has been obvious the entire time that I have been leaving money maps out. No one here makes money maps, money maps do not go throught balance testing... basically everything that I have said. You can't leave bounds out of UMS, because that would be like me leaving out, let's say, 2 player maps from melee. A disticntion is never made between bounds and the rest of UMS, while money maps are always kept extremely seperate from normal melee maps. However, if you would like to change what you are argung, fine, but it's obviuos that I have been arguing real maps the entire time.

-

I did not barge into the UMS forums and post this, I went to the melee forums instead. In fact, you could say develisk barged into the melee forums to push UMS maps.





I'm still amazed that there is any doubt that malee maps are harder. You making it seem like something easier than Visual f*cking Basic is some godly task. Lame.

I'll respond to each of those paragraphs, laughing while I do.

First of all, you ignorant moron, I have never said programming was harder than UMS the whole time, BUT it still doesn't mean Melee is harder than UMS. That's what I've been explaining with details in previous posts, but you obviously don't learn anything because you wouldn't be making an idiotic post like that. Bassically I said UMS isn't harder than Programming, then went on to say why Melee isn't harder than UMS, and how UMS, though similar to programming, also is different.

Second paragraph shows where your ignorance towards UMS comes in as well. Money maps and Bounds are each played in their respective modes, melee and UMS. You can't just go saying money maps aren't "real" maps and tell us bounds aren't either. Furthermore, money maps are always included in melee, and you didn't make the distinction in the beginning that they were not.

Here's some more food for thought. Ok so money maps don't share anything in common with melee maps? Well compare bounds to defense, what do they share in common? Bounds are just as different as any other map in UMS, in fact UMS maps are the most compared to the diversity in your melee maps.

Me pushing UMS maps? Did you not read the posts at the beginning of the thread? If not go read again. Also, I was the first one to put up any real suggestion for this damn thread in the first place.

I'm still amazed that you continue to press this argument, when you aren't nearly qualified to even make such comments about UMS. Your use of the f word and bypassing the censor is really very appreciated as well. Lame.

Your first paragraph makes little sense, but I'll try my best. In order for what you are saying to even make a hint of sense, you would have to believe that programming is harder than making a balanced low-money map, correct? It ain't true buddy. Programming is time consuming, not difficult (but still fun ).




Every type of UMS is different, of course they don't share anything... what kind of comment is that? Still, UMS are still grouped together under "UMS".

However, A distinction is always made between money maps and real maps. If you knew anything about non-ums this would be eye-bleedingly obvious.

The distiction is never "melee/UMS", it's always "UMS/money/real". Except of course, for this site, which unfortunately named this section "melee", which apperently makes people who aren't familliar with melee fail to see the distinction which is shared by the entire rest of the starcraft community. When on this site (and only on this site) I start talking about melee maps because the rest of the site is UMS, but I'm going to start talking like I would everywhere else. Otherwise it only adds to the ignorance.





Yes, you didn't start off that way, but that doesn't make any difference. Your arguement evolved into the polar oppositie of what I was saying, whether you admit it or not. It doesn't matter where you started, it matters what you were doing for what, 4, 5 pages?

Community != Forum

There isn't a UMS community on the "melee" forums. Just because they reside on the same website doesn't mean anything.

Dev, u came into this thread about melee at SEN and regardless of what ihatett said, u came here trying to start an argument, thinking your right about this, like you think your right about every other thing in the ing world...

Listen, ihatett, maybe you don't get what I'm saying. When I say "forum", I refer to the entire list of forums found at http://www.staredit.net/index.php?act=idx as the "forum". The "community" I refer to are the people who read and post at the forum. I've been here WAY longer than you... I came here when this site was in its infant stages. To make this even more clear, check some dates -- July 11, 2003 compared to March 17, 2005. When I talk about what the site was founded on, logic would tell you that I know, because I was there. At that time, melee was but a footnote to a footnote. The community is so deeply rooted in UMS mapping, and it is definitely an uphill battle for you to try to convert us over. Saying there is no UMS community in a melee forum is pure blindness. Now, I'm not saying I don't appreciate melee. I enjoy a good melee game every now and then, and I respect all the time that has to be put into balancing a melee map perfectly and making it look good. But, I'm going to give you a percentile here, and I think its an underestimation, to say that at least 90% of the people registered at SEN came to this site for SOMETHING related to UMS mapping.

That was a useless post. Of course this site is mainly UMS (these forums are tiny). But I did post in these forums. How does your join date change anything?

Also, I know it is an "upwards battle". If it wasn't I wouldn't need this thread.

Well, while you're talking about "this thread", remind me what the point of it was again. The title is "Is there a way to popularize melee at SEN?", yet I haven't seen one suggestion on how to do that since the first page.

Well to end our off topicness, i'll start:

Battle.net needs to make it so that it displays Map Descriptions in game lobby. That way, people can put their names in the map description and people will see it. Because the main reason i think why people like making UMS maps more is cuz they can put their name on it for the people to see.

You are an idiot who probably didn't even read the first page. I didn't start anything you fool, either you didn't read anything other than this page, or you just don't comprehend english. BTW you don't contribute anything to this thread at all. Also with the things you say, you sound like you should be agreeing with me -.-


Of course it would make little sense for you, because you don't know the first thing about UMS. And also, stop putting words in my mouth, I clearly said in that paragraph, UMS is not harder than programming, so stop pushing the false information that I did, because that is the only way you would win that argument.



Thanks for proving my point and contradicting yours. Yes every UMS is different and doesnt share anything, hey does that remind you of money vs melee? What kind of comment is that? Oh but still melee and money are grouped under "MELEE" hence the reason why when I click Join Game and sort to the Melee games I see money and nonmoney maps together.



Eyebleedingly obvious as the fact that you don't know the first thing about UMS, yes I agree.



What would you expect from a UMS site? Just because you failed to distinguish between them doesn't make it our fault. Maybe some people here are as ignorant about melee as you are about UMS. BTW around here there is a distinction between crappy bounds and good maps.



Oh, I'm sorry the fact that your arguments were crap made me think about changing my side, but I didn't further any points of the UMS being harder to make than Melee anyway. I just countered all your arguments. I'm not even bothering about arguing it anyway, because it's as useless as arguing Melee is harder to make than UMS, all I've been doing was saying why Melee isn't harder to make than UMS, which also doesn't mean UMS is harder to make than melee.



I don't think so at all. So people would all of a sudden make melee maps because you could put your name on it? I don't think so at all. As it's been said before, melee and UMS are different in mapmaking style, and for someone to switch from melee mapmaking and make UMS maps just because they want their name on it, means that they must not have a problem making a map that is very different than melee. Basically, if the person plays melee exclusively, and wants to make a melee map, but wants their name on it, they wouldn't make a UMS map that has nothing to do with melee. People make UMS maps, for their own reasons, but not because they can't put their name on a Melee map.



It won't end unless, a new topic is made and this one is closed, or ihatett realizes what it takes to make a UMS map, and stops making generalizations and stereotypes about UMS, starts respecting the UMS community and get his head out of the clouds about how melee is superior to everything, and learns that this argument is useless because, as Moose put it, the map is only as hard as the mapmaker makes it, no matter if it is UMS or Melee, or something along those lines.

[center]Listen, melee/UMS is like apples/oranges. Well maybe not beacuse oranges pwn apples.
Oh well. They are roughly equal yet different.

We have crappy Melee and crappy UMS.
Crappy Melee is Fastest Map and its bretheren, and crappy UMS are bounds or badly made other types with no colored text, shaky gameplay, bugs, things like Maranes or Ghasts and obvious typos/shortforms/1337, bad grammar, etc.

What ihatett and devilsk seem to be saying is:

They seem to be forgetting that: [/center]

I haven't forgotten anything, as this would basically outline one of my views:



It's mostly ihatett who is ignorant about UMS and doesn't understand that UMS isn't just triggers or else he wouldn't try to compare it to programming all the time. I really haven't said anything to degrade the Melee mapmaking community or even make rash generalizations and stereotypes that are wrong, which ihatett has also done.

I'm also not the one trying to further the opinion that one is better than the other.


I've also said something like this many times throughout this thread, unlike ihatett who has said many times Melee is harder to make then UMS.

Oh, and you did?

See Devilesk, Mabye you haven't realized this yet, because you have very little experience in life, (in the REAL world) but, you are gettin nowhere by telling people their idiots and taking everything they say, quote it, and tell them how stupid they are for saying that

If we have an argument, thats fine, but no need to be so completely rude about it... a proper argument would be telling people WHY THEY ARE WRONG, which you haven't done at all. At least Ihatett has given some reason to why the person was wrong, all you do it call them complete idiots or whatever, which proves nothing except from what you think of the person, which im sure no one cares about.


If you acted like this in the real world, im sure it would'nt last long, because, as soon as you got hit (which im sure you've never been hit), and that glass jaw of yours shatters, im sure you'd stop running your mouth. However this is the Internet, and soft people like you come here so you can think your tough.

Hmm, I haven't just been calling people idiots, I've also told them why

Me being rude? Ha, it was only after "cough" certain people started degrading the quality of the argument first I tried to keep it as civil as possible, and I just used the same words other people were using.

Oh yes wesmic, ihatett was the only one explaining their side of the argument, you really understand the whole topic don't you? I suppose you think you are contributing to this topic by making this irrelevant post you "idiot"



Yes, my huge posts which had quotes and replies were filled with OMG YOU ARE DUMB, repeated 100 times with no content whatsoever. Have you even read the whole topic? And no, reading only ihatett's and skipping my replies doesn't count as reading. Meh even if you did read the whole thing you probably wouldn't comprehend a damn thing.

Oh I must quote this too:



Contradicting yourself huh? (rhetorical question)


I'm sorry but my bs detector forces me to reply to such stupid arguments



Wow you are making false statements about me when you have never met me! Wow you are cool. Btw who is the one calling the other person stupid now? (rhetorical question, the answer would be you)



Oh yes, you would know that from experience. Actually I'm here to carry on an intelligent argument and share my ideas.

Now here are some questions:
Did this show you are an idiot, Yes.
Did this contribute anything to the topic, No.
Did I enjoy replying to this crap, Yes.

Please continue to make useless posts, I'm sure it will make yourself look cool and suddenly end this argument.

We could popularize melee at SEN by having tourname--

Uh, don't we already do that? When was the last one?

I think that was a good post without any bs

Your first paragraph is pretty true.

Second paragraph, I agree with what you are doing. But instead of getting pure UMS players in the melee scene, what about the opposite? Getting pure Melee players into the UMS scene, I think it would do a lot of good for ihatett and his arguments.

Third paragraph is good. Good way to get active and all.

Finally a response that I don't have to argue against due to poor arguments and pointless ideas, not just you I mean in general.

See Dev, once again, all you do is say that I'm an idiot for having a different opinion than you. If I knew someone like you, I probably would have hit them a long time ago, and cut off their pinky toe. However, I'm fortunate enough not to know you. I'll go ahead and come back here later, and read what you think about everyone of these sentences, and how much of an idiot you think i am. It's almost become humorous. You remind me of John Kerry... or some other puntificating bastard of that sort.

There you go again. You completely and entirely ignored what I said, and instead repeated that I don't know anything about UMS. And by "little sense" I meant "poorly written".

But how about responding to it?

"Your first paragraph makes little sense, but I'll try my best. In order for what you are saying to even make a hint of sense, you would have to believe that programming is harder than making a balanced low-money map, correct? It ain't true buddy. Programming is time consuming, not difficult (but still fun tongue.gif)."



You don't get it, do you. The game type a map is played in means nothing. One on One games (like on PGTour) should be grouped with normal Melee games, but apperently you in your newbishness wouldn't agree. It isn't in the same type, eh?

However, again, UMS are all grouped together. Bounds, RPGs, the likes. They are reffered to as "UMS". Maps with near-infinite money at each main are reffered to as "money-maps". And last but not least, normal maps are reffered to as "low-money maps". That distinction is always there. I'll take this time to respond to a later statement of yours:



It is your fault that you didn't realize that my statements would make no sense if talking about money maps, but even if it was my fault, it wouldn't matter. It wouldn't change the fact that we have been talking about non-money maps the entire time.

Also, we not been talking about crappy maps in each of our respective categories. The discussion would be pointless if we were.



There you go again.



First of all, stop calling it melee. We have been over this, and it makes no sense to call it that since absolutely no one else does except you and your UMS buddies.

And stop trying to act nuetral:









You say words like "probably" and "posssibly" to so you can say you're nuetral, but it's painfully clear that you aren't.








By the way, I have a fun treat:

Here is a compendium of the times that I have found devilesk saying his classic response: "you are ignorant of UMS". Each on is on a seperate line.































And that was just a sampling when I was skimming through.

Those are often in response to large posts.


EDIT: Added a couple more from this page, but nothing from below this post.

Lol, what else is there to say? You are ignorant, and know nothing about UMS, should I explain everything about UMS to you when you have to actually try it for yourself? Idiot.

"Your first paragraph makes little sense, but I'll try my best. In order for what you are saying to even make a hint of sense, you would have to believe that programming is harder than making a balanced low-money map, correct? It ain't true buddy. Programming is time consuming, not difficult (but still fun tongue.gif)."

Your assumptions are wrong. You are still going by that Programming and UMS comparison to make it seem like you are qualified to say that UMS is easier to make than Melee. It just doesn't work as I've said numerous times before. If you need reasons, then go read over the entire thread.



I don't get why you think that I would think 1v1 PGT isn't melee. Supposing going by your twisted view of my point, it would still work out because first of all, all pgt is, is another server not run by bnet. Melee mode and UMS mode still apply. And even if you do group together all the crap in UMS, what good does that do for your side? It doesn't do you any good, because you basically disregard that when looking at which side is harder to make.


Lol, so I have to make sense out of your crap, but you don't have to make sense out of mine, wow thats fair. Lol we not been talking about crappy maps? Then what was the point of taking the time of saying whether money maps are part of melee and bounds are part of UMS. Nice contradiction you got there.



Yes, there you go again as well, being an idiot restating things that have already been discussed.


Lol? What would you like me to call it then? We have not been over this. Plus it doesn't even relate to the discussion. Hmm last time I checked the topic title it was "Is there a way to popularize melee at SEN?"



Blah blah, you skipped the part later where I explained all that. It's cause of your mindnumbing, eyebleeding, crap arguments that caused me to "change" my view during that time.



Oh yes, I'm sure you are more clear on my stance on the argument than I am. Just like how I should believe every piece of crap you say about UMS when it's not true.



Hey here's another treat, each time I said that, it was well deserved, because you ARE ignorant of UMS.



Yea they are also embedded in my equally large posts, what do you think, I fill the rest of my posts with YOU ARE AN IDIOT repeated 100 times? It doesn't matter if your post is large, if the content sucks, then the length of the post is useless.

*devilesk yawns, You have anymore crap to throw out at me? Or will you make another useless point.*

Btw, if I had to quote all the times you were being ignorant of UMS, I would have to quote practically every reply you have made, which is a lot more than the times I have called those ignorant replies ignorant. Most of the time after I say that post was ignorant I go on to explain my reasons, the only time I didn't was when I just went 1. Ignorant 2. Ignorant 3. Ignorant. But then you complained, so I outlined the reasons in the next post, which was equally useless since you just don't understand any of it.

There you go again, again.



Explain how triggers are not kiddie-programming, and how the rest of UMS is not kiddie-design. Fact is, you can't.



You tried to prove that money-maps belong in the same categoty as low-money maps by saying they are both played under the melee type. I am saying that is a retarted way of classifying maps, and if you used that way you wouldn't classify One on One with melee. And about crappy maps, that provides a nice segway:



You are becoming incoherent, but I'll try my best. We have been talking about crappy money maps because you tried to bring them into the discussion. Nice try using another one of your arguing tricks.



I am restating things? What the f*ck? I was talking about how you always say "you are ignorant', and you make that response? How ironic.



I already said I was going to stop reffering to them like that on the last page:

"When on this site (and only on this site) I start talking about melee maps because the rest of the site is UMS, but I'm going to start talking like I would everywhere else. Otherwise it only adds to the ignorance."



Oh, well I'm glad you are coming out and contradicting yourself saying you had no opnion on it. And why is the word "change" in quotes?



It's not that I'm more clear on your stance than you are, it's that you are being dishonest and sneaky in your word usage.



Again.



No, you then go on to ignore the point you are responding to and go off on something else. That, or... in fact, I already talked about this.

"And just look throughout the thread and see who was replying to every arguement with either 1: "you are ignorant about ums" or 2: acting like the other guy's quote was not in direct response to a quoted statement by him but instead said completely out of the blue (thus making the other guy's response make no sense)."









ADDITION:
You know what, before you give me any more BS, I don't even think i'm going to respond to you anymore.

It's obvious to everyone else who is right, and I have a map to work on. So good bye!

Does it even matter? No.



Explain why how UMS design is different from melee design.



One on One isn't a game mode nor a category, you make no sense. If you go by your way, which is classifying them by how much they have in common, then money maps don't go with melee, and everything in UMS should have it's own category, such as Bound, Defense, RPG, etc.




I brought them into the discussion? Maybe the pages of crap written by you has affected my memory, but it was you who tried to compare the greatest melee map made to a bound, which I feel is just as much not apart of good UMS as money is to Melee. Oh and by try your best I think you mean disregard most of my points and try to get around them by posting some irrelevant crap. Nice try using another one of your arguing tricks.


Ok here's how it worked. You started restating things, what do you want me to do? Waste my life thinking of a new way to respond to that crap which basically means the same thing which is, you are ignorant. Yes it is ironic how you say that was ironic.



Yes I remember you saying that, but the problem was I didn't know what the hell you meant by all that crap. How exactly would you start talking like you would everywhere else?



I'm glad you didn't come out and say you contradicted yourself and instead try to hide the fact you did. It's in quotes because I wanted to put emphasis on it? Second of all if you read the thing you quoted, it said I already explained it all before.


Sneaky word usage? Rofl, dishonest? Rofl I guess I could call all of your ignorant posts dishonest, but I choose to call you ignorant and uninformed.
Also, does it matter if I'm a socialist or not?


Lol I love the way you try to use that cute smiley and make it seem like you are cleverly trying to cover up for your crap. I said each quote was in response to one of your crappy replies. Too bad you can't argue otherwise.



Lol hypocrite, I go off topic, wow get your reading comprehension check PLEASE. You keep questioning why I keep saying you are ignorant. Ever wonder why? Maybe because you ARE. 2 makes no sense, try using examples, I can't understand that string of crap you call english. So you are saying I act like the other guy's quote wasn't directly responding to a quoted statement made by himself, but instead said completely out of the blue? Wow I just repeated what you said very slowly and still understand very little of your meaning. When the hell has that happened?


Wow you are saying you are repeating yourself! In fact, I have been the whole time too, amazing.


Oh, your arguments just started to all collapse on you. GJ leaving the argument. Lol yea sure it's obvious to everyone else who is right, yea of course
Arrogance + Ignorance = ihatett That's my equation. Oh and since you just said good bye, any chance of changing your mind and replying to this will result in no response from me, since you already said you wouldn't respond, and if you do that would make you a hypocrite now wouldn't it? But go ahead, keep it up, you can claim the title of hypocrite as well, while continuing this crap, which I had believed died 3 times already when Entropy, Nozomu, MA, and Moose stepped in.

Well, the coffin could use one more nail.



Why? Why the f*ck did you just ask that? Is there even a question as to whether they are different? Oh... I know why you asked it. You didn't want to actually address what I wrote.



I made that comparison because YOU tried to prove UMS was harder by saying that a single theoretical (but still impossible) UMS map could be harder to make than a low-money map. Since YOU tried to pull that trick, I wanted to show you how rediculous your logic was. Again, this is another case of you taking a statement of mine which was in direct response to one of yours, and taking take it out of context.


*********************************************************
Why do you do keep doing that?
*********************************************************



You say it because you don't know how to intelligently argue. It's your way of getting out of having to respond.



I'm much more clear in my writing than you are, but if you are having trouble understanding I am glad to help you:

"And just look throughout the thread and see who was replying to every arguement with either 1: "you are ignorant about ums" or 2: acting like the other guy's quote was not in direct response to a quoted statement by him but instead said completely out of the blue (thus making the other guy's response make no sense)."

You reply to every arguement with either:

1: "you are ignorant about ums"
2: You act like the my statement is not in direct response to a quoted statement of yours. This makes my quote make no sense."

If you had read that quote the first time in it's context it would make more sense. I was responding to someone saying that wesmic had described me when he infact described you.

"Wes didn't insult him.

And just look throughout the thread and see who was replying to every arguement with either 1: "you are ignorant about ums" or 2: acting like the other guy's quote was not in direct response to a quoted statement by him but instead said completely out of the blue (thus making the other guy's response make no sense). That is the person who wes was describing."



Pointless.



Nah, I just don't want to waste my time correcting someone who thinks UMS is a godlike hobby which has a some secret intricacy (which you still haven't explained) that makes it so different from programming.


How about giving a real response this:



ADDITION:
Hahaha... In response to your edit, you kept responding too, buddy.

Ok it seems as if you have more crap to spread.



Not really, I just wanted you to explain the difference before I explained your so called "kiddie UMS design". I wanna know how ignorant you are before I waste my time explaining something you clearly know nothing about, as I have said before. I did address what you wrote, but it's pointless to explain if you won't understand.



Impossible? I didn't just use a single theoretical map you idiot, I also stated that maps that are in production and already made, such as ones by Tux and Bolt. The fact is you can do more with UMS than you can with Melee. And I didn't compare a crap UMS to a great Melee like you did, I compared the best melee and the best UMS.




Yea sure, that's why I need to repeat things more for you to understand. And it still doesn't get through your thick head. Hence the reason you have about 100 quotes of me responding to your ignorance with me saying you are ignorant.



Lol the fact that you rely on wesmic to provide support for your argument shows how desperate you are. Wesmic hasn't contributed anythning to this argument or made any good points about anything.




I stopped reading the first time you said that for the rest of that reply. Because the rest, as you pointed out made no sense.

Lol after reading wesmic's crap again and then reading yours I can easily throw out your argument once again. 1. me saying you are ignorant doesn't relate to what wesmic was describing because he was saying "who is the person calling other people idiots", which is you. "that isnt the least bit reasonable" I recall that first being said by you as well, ihatett. Which was one of the thing's wesmic was whining about. Also wesmic talked about "me" as knowing it all and saying others know nothing, that can be interpreted as me saying you are ignorant, but since when have I said I knew it all? It actually fits better as you saying you know that 1. for a fact melee is harder to make than UMS and 2. you seem to know it all about melee, yet know nothing of UMS.

Ultimo was perfectly fine saying what he said.


Sure avoid the underlying point. The point is you think you are repeating yourself? All my replies are of me repeating myself because you cannot grasp any of the simple concepts said in this topic.



Oh thats the same reason why I don't want to waste my time explaining UMS to you! Congratulations! I don't want to waste time correcting you just because you are ignorant due to your inexperience at UMS. For me to explain in words what makes UMS different would be a complete waste of time, you would need to actually touch the damn editor you lazy moron. That's why my replies mostly include, you are ignorant, come back when you have knowledge of your opposition.


It's funny how you labeled UMS as having a kiddie-design, how bout I give you this kind of response: Explain how melee design is so much better than UMS design. Better yet, explain to me what you mean by "kiddie-design" without showing how ignorant you are of actually making a UMS map.



"That makes no sense but I will try my best" Hmm I would think when I edit something it's to add to my response, buddy.

Another post replying to a pointless post, lol you aren't getting anywhere I hope you realize that. But keep it coming.



Oh yes, I'm sure it needs as much as you think it needs to have.

You call me a hypocrite and then you respond. Cute.





No, you never explained it. Quote it if you did. Funny how you won't.



Oh really? How about this... these are direct quotes:

You:


Me:



You: [after quoting me my fragment saying "then yes that would be harder to make than a melee map."]




Sorry, but if you lie about what happened, you are sure to get owned.

Also, funny how you missed my huge bold question asking why you keep taking my statements out of context. I'll post the whole thing again, exactly how it appeared:

[beginning of quote] Again, this is another case of you taking a statement of mine which was in direct response to one of yours, and taking take it out of context.


*********************************************************
Why do you do keep doing that?
*********************************************************[end of quote]



I have to repeat myself because you don't respond. For an example, see above.



Like I said in my last three posts, including this one:

"Explain how triggers are not kiddie-programming, and how the rest of UMS is not kiddie-design. Fact is, you can't."

Like most things, they water both down and make both easier for you in return for you having relatively little control over what you can do. And if you think you have lots of control when making UMS, try making your own game.



What in god's name are you talking about? Explain, and then I will respond.



Har har.