Report, edit, etc...Posted by .Coko[CK] on 2005-02-01 at 13:16:04
Although you can talk about the outlook of a map, its features, these all take second place to its Balance issues.
But, towards the two unique ideas of Island or Land match ups, which are easier to balance in your view? Which present an easier task and why?
But, towards the two unique ideas of Island or Land match ups, which are easier to balance in your view? Which present an easier task and why?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-02-01 at 14:35:10
I think islands are much easier to balance. My reasons why:
First of all, you can control the exact amount of land each player starts off with. Because in a non island map, the starting areas might be balanced well but the position of where the starting areas are and expansions will never be perfectly balanced (for instance, in The Hunters, Player 1 and 2 share the same expansion spot).
Really what makes land maps unbalanced is the pathways leading to different areas on the map. Some pathways are easier to manuver through and use strategically, others would be too constrict to move huge armies through. Island maps, the only way to travel is by transport. The "traveling" of units from place to place is evenly distributed among all the islands.
In most land maps, people might use cliffs and/or ramps in many levels. For our map editors, we can only place ramps and these sort of things on the part of the cliff which faces our screen. Trees are only hideable when you're technically "above" the base of the tree. So usually land maps are pretty hard to balance especially if you have lets say 1 person starting at the top of the map and another at the bottom.
First of all, you can control the exact amount of land each player starts off with. Because in a non island map, the starting areas might be balanced well but the position of where the starting areas are and expansions will never be perfectly balanced (for instance, in The Hunters, Player 1 and 2 share the same expansion spot).
Really what makes land maps unbalanced is the pathways leading to different areas on the map. Some pathways are easier to manuver through and use strategically, others would be too constrict to move huge armies through. Island maps, the only way to travel is by transport. The "traveling" of units from place to place is evenly distributed among all the islands.
In most land maps, people might use cliffs and/or ramps in many levels. For our map editors, we can only place ramps and these sort of things on the part of the cliff which faces our screen. Trees are only hideable when you're technically "above" the base of the tree. So usually land maps are pretty hard to balance especially if you have lets say 1 person starting at the top of the map and another at the bottom.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yenku on 2005-02-01 at 18:49:50
QUOTE(MillenniumArmy @ Feb 1 2005, 02:35 PM)
I think islands are much easier to balance. My reasons why:
First of all, you can control the exact amount of land each player starts off with. Because in a non island map, the starting areas might be balanced well but the position of where the starting areas are and expansions will never be perfectly balanced (for instance, in The Hunters, Player 1 and 2 share the same expansion spot).
Really what makes land maps unbalanced is the pathways leading to different areas on the map. Some pathways are easier to manuver through and use strategically, others would be too constrict to move huge armies through. Island maps, the only way to travel is by transport. The "traveling" of units from place to place is evenly distributed among all the islands.
In most land maps, people might use cliffs and/or ramps in many levels. For our map editors, we can only place ramps and these sort of things on the part of the cliff which faces our screen. Trees are only hideable when you're technically "above" the base of the tree. So usually land maps are pretty hard to balance especially if you have lets say 1 person starting at the top of the map and another at the bottom.
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First of all, you can control the exact amount of land each player starts off with. Because in a non island map, the starting areas might be balanced well but the position of where the starting areas are and expansions will never be perfectly balanced (for instance, in The Hunters, Player 1 and 2 share the same expansion spot).
Really what makes land maps unbalanced is the pathways leading to different areas on the map. Some pathways are easier to manuver through and use strategically, others would be too constrict to move huge armies through. Island maps, the only way to travel is by transport. The "traveling" of units from place to place is evenly distributed among all the islands.
In most land maps, people might use cliffs and/or ramps in many levels. For our map editors, we can only place ramps and these sort of things on the part of the cliff which faces our screen. Trees are only hideable when you're technically "above" the base of the tree. So usually land maps are pretty hard to balance especially if you have lets say 1 person starting at the top of the map and another at the bottom.
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yea, its so much easier to make equal sized areas with islands and i think its easier to visualize as well.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DT_Battlekruser on 2005-02-01 at 18:52:26
QUOTE(MillenniumArmy @ Feb 1 2005, 11:35 AM)
I think islands are much easier to balance. My reasons why:
First of all, you can control the exact amount of land each player starts off with. Because in a non island map, the starting areas might be balanced well but the position of where the starting areas are and expansions will never be perfectly balanced (for instance, in The Hunters, Player 1 and 2 share the same expansion spot).
Really what makes land maps unbalanced is the pathways leading to different areas on the map. Some pathways are easier to manuver through and use strategically, others would be too constrict to move huge armies through. Island maps, the only way to travel is by transport. The "traveling" of units from place to place is evenly distributed among all the islands.
In most land maps, people might use cliffs and/or ramps in many levels. For our map editors, we can only place ramps and these sort of things on the part of the cliff which faces our screen. Trees are only hideable when you're technically "above" the base of the tree. So usually land maps are pretty hard to balance especially if you have lets say 1 person starting at the top of the map and another at the bottom.
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First of all, you can control the exact amount of land each player starts off with. Because in a non island map, the starting areas might be balanced well but the position of where the starting areas are and expansions will never be perfectly balanced (for instance, in The Hunters, Player 1 and 2 share the same expansion spot).
Really what makes land maps unbalanced is the pathways leading to different areas on the map. Some pathways are easier to manuver through and use strategically, others would be too constrict to move huge armies through. Island maps, the only way to travel is by transport. The "traveling" of units from place to place is evenly distributed among all the islands.
In most land maps, people might use cliffs and/or ramps in many levels. For our map editors, we can only place ramps and these sort of things on the part of the cliff which faces our screen. Trees are only hideable when you're technically "above" the base of the tree. So usually land maps are pretty hard to balance especially if you have lets say 1 person starting at the top of the map and another at the bottom.
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What if you make a 4-player map with a player per corner that is symmetrical by horizontal folding and vertical folding?
[EDIT] I suppose you couldn't put ramps on it though...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by best.sock on 2005-02-01 at 19:12:13
QUOTE
What if you make a 4-player map with a player per corner that is symmetrical by horizontal folding and vertical folding?
then you could get something like gorky islands
the only balnce issue i can think of is p totally owning z on islands. Not much the map can do for that.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DT_Battlekruser on 2005-02-01 at 19:40:49
I mean to fix the issues of balanacing land maps.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-02-01 at 19:48:57
Well but u see DK, what also makes these land maps unbalanced is also the "pathways" sometimes. Some have more expansion sites than others, some may have more doodads blocking the way, others might even have the "wall" advantage (where for instance you can park sieged tanks behind walls or on top of cliffs). Even if u make a game totally symetrical and "balanced" (like the $$ map designs for instance), then it wouldn't really be a "Pro" map and I think those aren't the types of maps melee map makers would make.
For almost all Island maps, the "pathway" is by transportation and all you really gotta do is even out the expansion sites and you'll be fine.
For almost all Island maps, the "pathway" is by transportation and all you really gotta do is even out the expansion sites and you'll be fine.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Rhiom on 2005-02-01 at 23:38:50
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Well i think one of the biggest problems with balanceing land maps is the fact the most of the doodads in star editors are unblanced themselves. For instance if you want to control the amount of land someone starts with you usually use a platue/ valley area. the problem with this is that fact that the doodad ramps can only face certain ways. which inheirently creates probelems for the other corner players if you were going to use the player in each corner method. To accomodate these poor doodads you have to change terran and by doing this you are automaticly unbalancing things. For this reason island maps are easier to balance. but the problem with island maps is the issue of whihc race has the strongest in air power.
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Well i think one of the biggest problems with balanceing land maps is the fact the most of the doodads in star editors are unblanced themselves. For instance if you want to control the amount of land someone starts with you usually use a platue/ valley area. the problem with this is that fact that the doodad ramps can only face certain ways. which inheirently creates probelems for the other corner players if you were going to use the player in each corner method. To accomodate these poor doodads you have to change terran and by doing this you are automaticly unbalancing things. For this reason island maps are easier to balance. but the problem with island maps is the issue of whihc race has the strongest in air power.
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Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-02-02 at 00:01:03
QUOTE(Rhiom @ Feb 1 2005, 10:38 PM)
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Well i think one of the biggest problems with balanceing land maps is the fact the most of the doodads in star editors are unblanced themselves. For instance if you want to control the amount of land someone starts with you usually use a platue/ valley area. the problem with this is that fact that the doodad ramps can only face certain ways. which inheirently creates probelems for the other corner players if you were going to use the player in each corner method. To accomodate these poor doodads you have to change terran and by doing this you are automaticly unbalancing things. For this reason island maps are easier to balance. but the problem with island maps is the issue of whihc race has the strongest in air power.
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Well i think one of the biggest problems with balanceing land maps is the fact the most of the doodads in star editors are unblanced themselves. For instance if you want to control the amount of land someone starts with you usually use a platue/ valley area. the problem with this is that fact that the doodad ramps can only face certain ways. which inheirently creates probelems for the other corner players if you were going to use the player in each corner method. To accomodate these poor doodads you have to change terran and by doing this you are automaticly unbalancing things. For this reason island maps are easier to balance. but the problem with island maps is the issue of whihc race has the strongest in air power.
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Yup exactly what i said previously.
THe air power for all 3 races are evenly balanced. Carriers arent that power and uber. Only in Money maps mainly i think
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Staredit.Net Essence on 2005-02-02 at 12:31:28
Land is defenatly easier to balance... At least, you can "decide" on where ground attacks will be able to come from, while island maps usually are (in my oppinion) a bit more unbalanced... Zerg and Terran can just get easy transports quickly enough, but Protoss has to tech pretty high and spend a great account of minerals on shuttles, then load them. Arbiters are even harder to get.
My 2 cents. I made 1 island map... Took me the longest time, lotsa lil details, but it suked. Cuz its island
. Just kidding...
My 2 cents. I made 1 island map... Took me the longest time, lotsa lil details, but it suked. Cuz its island
. Just kidding...Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-02-02 at 17:02:05
QUOTE(Shadow Paladin @ Feb 2 2005, 11:31 AM)
Land is defenatly easier to balance... At least, you can "decide" on where ground attacks will be able to come from, while island maps usually are (in my oppinion) a bit more unbalanced... Zerg and Terran can just get easy transports quickly enough, but Protoss has to tech pretty high and spend a great account of minerals on shuttles, then load them. Arbiters are even harder to get.
My 2 cents. I made 1 island map... Took me the longest time, lotsa lil details, but it suked. Cuz its island. Just kidding...
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My 2 cents. I made 1 island map... Took me the longest time, lotsa lil details, but it suked. Cuz its island
. Just kidding...[right][snapback]137030[/snapback][/right]
The air balancing as far as race goes, i thnk they should all be about the same. The protoss MAY have a slightly weaker transportation system but their air strike force would compensate for that.
Yes you can decide on where ground attacks can come from, but it's much much harder to balance that out; each pathway of destruction must be evenly spaced out and spread among the map as well as the decoration and realistic qualities they possess. Not even blizzard's maps like LT have it perfectly balanced.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Staredit.Net Essence on 2005-02-02 at 21:14:50
You're stating even worst things... Protoss doesn't have any good, cheap fighting air units. Scouts costs a @(&# bunch of minerals, and they pretty much can't rivalize other air units, while Carriers are even worst (in terms of cost).
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DT_Battlekruser on 2005-02-02 at 22:01:07
Scouts are good at ATA, but they suck at ground. They wouldn't be that bad.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by best.sock on 2005-02-02 at 22:13:55
ive already said it but pvz on island maps is the #1 imbalance in starcraft. corsair reaver is really hard to stop. With toss being able to get off first main island and make first expansion at the same time as zerg, and no early expansions (most island maps) this stops zerg from its ussual macro power over toss. Also the scouting overlord(s) face a bigger risk with a almost garunteed corsair tech.
The only problem with land maps is the ramps.
The only problem with land maps is the ramps.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by iamandragon on 2005-02-03 at 08:38:08
Carriers suck? I just got my @$$ 0wned by carriers! On island maps, it seems like that protoss has a disadvantage 'cause of transportation weakness. But if you think of carriers, it can completely change the tide. A well placed carriers protected by Corsairs/Scouts can completely destroy the chance of anyone defending their coast. When the coast is cleared, that's when protoss can happily drop their force. They can even start a base there!
It's just impossible to say which is easier to balance: island or land? In land maps, players who are strong on ground push has a good advantage. On island maps, however, players who are strong in Air Strike gets a good advantage.
Personally I like land maps. I'm a big protoss pusher.
It's just impossible to say which is easier to balance: island or land? In land maps, players who are strong on ground push has a good advantage. On island maps, however, players who are strong in Air Strike gets a good advantage.
Personally I like land maps. I'm a big protoss pusher.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by phlemhacker99 on 2005-02-03 at 12:26:56
Islands i think. You don't have to worry about making the land llok perfect like in land maps.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by SMILE on 2005-02-04 at 00:00:01
Gmmm... I hate islands!
May be cause my opponents likes making me drops?
And... I hate land =)
Here I loosing very often...
p.s. May be I must stop playing with Gosu's? And begin playing with newbies
May be cause my opponents likes making me drops?
And... I hate land =)
Here I loosing very often...
p.s. May be I must stop playing with Gosu's? And begin playing with newbies
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Cnl.Fatso on 2005-02-10 at 21:28:17
QUOTE(SMILE @ Feb 3 2005, 09:00 PM)
p.s. May be I must stop playing with Gosu's? And begin playing with newbies
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That would help.