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Alright, here's another melee map. I personally think this is clearly not one of the best maps out there but owell. Here it is neways.

Size: 128x128
Players: 4
Tileset: Jungle
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Wow, not bad. I like the way its all rounded. Kinda has a flow. Looks pretty nice

awe, wow!! its cool. It has a flow to it.

terran takes two expos and and defends one small choke

then a 200/200 army rolls out through the narrow middle


gg

Hmmm... ill c


*sigh* The melee forums here on SEN are very very.... slow. I'm also gonna try posting maps on pgtour's forums or something

yes, they are rediculously slow... that's why they should be combined


Oh yea, no one wants that.

A part of that 200/200 army is probably liek 24 gaurdians that takes down the defence with ground support and shreds up the rest of the base and terran player dies and im like wooo and the looser is like snap.



Top Bases seem bigger XD

Too symmetrical for me. Needs some variety in terrain. Open up some more temple in the middle. Needs more 'cryptic'ness.

i was talking about against protoss

against zerg, terran will get two free gas and plenty of minerals, so they could probably go mass vessel. I'm not very good at tvz balance (I don't play either race), but I do know that an early three base terran is probably a winning terran.

3 base terran is not automaticly the winning race. It's all about preventing the zerg from going mass expo, eco and tech. I lost sooo many games where I had my fair share of expos, but if the zerg has enough and can tech up to well upgraded ultralisks or dark swarm, it's only a matter of time, unless you have that awesome micromanagement that you will see in many progamer-replays(like contstantly irridating with 8 vessels without forgetting to build new units etc)

As I see it, only 1 expo on each players island is with gas, so mass vessels(2-port) would come only with minimal tank-support. 2 Expos isn't really all that much, but I still don't like how only two thin bridges connect the islands. I think extra-wide bridges could be a good thing here. (You can make them with scmdraft2, i can tell you how if you don't know, but it may take up to an hour just to make the bridges, so take your time;))

Really the gameplay is not that ed up, the min only expand is much more exposed than the gasexpand and protoss should be able to delay this expo for terran quite some time i he has good goon micro. On the other hand, I don't think that all those cliffs in the middle are good for the gameplay, although they may add some visual appeal.

Do you play protoss? Do you have any idea how hard it is to try and get past vult/tank when you have to run through a tiny chokse first? Nothing would cross the bridge.

wtf? Who has to cross the bridge? The terran does. You pressure with yout goons to delay the expo, and you will probably not overrun it when it is finally ready and safe. But until then you should manage to get your own expos and if you can prevent vulture harass (relativly easy due to the bridges) you can get more expos than him, making it hard for terran to push over the bridges himself by standing directly behind them with your goons. It is not the job of protoss to kill terran under 20 minutes, it is the job of terran to kill toss before he has 6+carriers, and the job of protoss to be always one expand in advantage to afford those carriers. Of course not everyone builds carriers everytime, but he COULD, and that will put pressure on the terran to hurry with his macro.

edit: Did not mean to be rude, I'm terran player btw. I see that the game can be pretty much over if terran manages to stand in front of YOUR bridge with his containment if you did not manage to get carriers yet. On the other hand, carriers can be quite strong on this map. I think we both agree that replacing the two small bridges with one huge would be good, don't we?

No.

Ok, so this is way to wasy for terran to protect thier nat and expansion.

Terran WOULD roll out with 200/200 supply, tanks and vultures, and destroy any race.

They would go to the zerg/protoss player's bridge, seige some tanks and slowly push to the other side. GG toss or zerg, and if you think air will stop it, your an idiot, gols kill all.

BTW, Ihatett, i have a rep of me playing Yellow, no lie, if you want ill send it to you, and this is very on topic, because he gets a quick two expos (on gaia) and im toss, i cant do shit vs his vultures and tanks.

Ihatett, I swear its him, you can tell (i even talked with him, he gave me tips and we played 3 times)

ADDITION:
Above, first thing i said,
sorry about my grammar.

Im not sure how to fix this mill, sorry. Maybe you should take more time out for your maps and stop pumping them out so fast. The Pros only made 15 average. Take your time. And go through the balance issues while your making it.

yenku I don' t want to be rude or anything, but take a look at following maps: Blade Storm, Lost Temple, Gaema Gowon. Did that? great.
Is it difficult to get your let's say 2fax-to expand or even 1fax to expand going on these maps? If your micro is ok, only some mass-unit strats or cheese rushes should prevent terran from getting your expo going at ~30 supply. After that you can take your min only expo instantly without fighting much for ground (on 12 and 3 it is a bit more difficult on LT).
So if all terran has to do on most ground maps is getting two expos going and massing units from there, broodwar would not being fun nor balanced. The fact that it is should show you that you are wrong. I'm all for wider bridges, but I don't see those spectecular imbalances some people here like to see everywhere.

In the end, skill is still over 95% of what it is about. There are terrans winning on nostalgia versus toss on cross positions, and there are zerg winning on gaema vs terran on close positions. Skill it what matters, some maps may give some races slight advantages, but don't act as if it's autowin.

On Bladestorm, terran has to defend a very large choke. They secure 20 minerals and 2 geysers. On this map, you have to defend a cramped choke, and you get 23 minerals and 2 geysers.

On Bladestorm, when you move out, you have a large unbuildable center to worry about. On this map, you have a cramped and mostly buildable center. Terran can play tornado style on this map: double expo, mass units while harrassing, and then move out with their unflankable army. Nothing protoss can do counters it.


ADDITION:


Those matchups aren't so much imbalanced as they are difficult. Good players are able to win versus other good players.

However, some maps are imbalanced. Paradoxxx for example. Zerg versus protoss is basically unwinnable.

Ok, I feel like we are on a good base to continue the discussion because our opinions are not THAT far away.
Here my suggestions(I mentioned some of them before:)

The Middle could and should be changed a bit.
Get rid of the 4 high ground cliffs in the middle (the two at the middle expos could still be there)
Make most of the terrain in the middle unbuildable
Remove 1 mineral stone from both the min only and natural expos.
Make extra wide bridge (like one huge bridge that takes as much place as the 2 you have right now do, so almost 3 times normal width), or put a third bridge there (shorter bridges could help, too). I would prefer the wide bridge option if you are willing to do that.

I really like the style of the map, would be great if we get it balanced so it can be played it some leagues;)

Im not saying the Terran player wont need skill. Obviously i didnt explain enough, lemme take you through it...

Terran gets quck factories and gets a few tanks with seige and then vults, then while be attacked by protoss, they use the thing call SEIGE ability and protect the tanks with vults, then they slowly bring them to the choke and re enforce them with more, then terran takes all his EASILY gaurded expos and gets 200 supply and kills the toss.

On bladestorm, the choke is much bigger to the gas/mineral expansion, making it much easier for toss or zerg to take out their second base. Its much harder on that map for terran to get as many expansions as they can on this map.

Also, people on other sites think that bladestorm is rigged for terran.

Arent you guys forgetting that there is away around defences. You dont have to cross the bridge. Use dropships! If the edges are proctected by anti air turrets take them down with carriers, gaurdians, battle cruisers whatever.

Like what i half-assed said earlier. If youre zerg you can attack the bunkers and tanks with gaurdians and if they send some men to counterattack have some lurkers in the ground near the entrance to tear them up. and have some hydralisks hiding behind out of the tanks reach. It will most likely work.

My point is that there is always a counter attack unit/units that you can use to turn the tide of a battle. Thats why starcraft is the good game it is.

Someone made a reference to terran having to take out toss before they get 6plus carriers. Thats not true. Ive taken on at least 24 at a time before. How i defeted them was have twelve or more cloaked wraiths, send in a couple science vessles to EMP and mop up with the wraiths.

Ok, I think I can agree on the point that Blade Storm is easier PvT than this map (probably even after Millenium changed some of the things he should change). But honestly, BS is a really nice map PvT, one of the hardest for terran. It is easier when it's on close positions than on cross position for terran, but without turrets it is hard to push through the middle. And a good toss should macro enough to prevent the terran from just walking through his troops without that typical mines+siege+turrets setup. If terran can just pick up all his tanks and kill toss witout siege mode, the terran already has big advantage, which has less to do with mapimbalance than skillimbalance probably. If Millenium changes what I wrote I believe the map will still be a good map for terran, but not to an extend where other races have no chance if players are on same level.

btw terran would probably not wait until he has 200 supply until he starts big attack, chances are toss has quite a nice fleet of carriers by then, or all expos on the map and 30 gates(which would still lose, toss just won't let terran get to 200 supply without teching some fancy stuff himself). Typical Tornado is at ~150 supply.



ADDITION:
cobra, It may be possible to take out a large fleet of carriers without support occasionally. But 80% of the games, toss gets 8+carriers without being close to elimination on the ground fights, it's over. If terran goes goliaths only, supporting ground troops or even better, templars will rip them apart, if terran goes wraiths...he must have really money and time, and will still be ed if he cant kill all the observers, as the supporting goons own them.

You don't have to kill the terran in his nutshell anyway, just make sure he never gets in front of your base with his main army (easier said than done^^)

Cobra, are you familiar with Iloveoov?

His style is taking quick quick expos, then camping in his base while harassing and massing units. The protoss can't hit him head on, and they're forced to expand to counter his superior economy. However, because of his constant harass, the toss has a hard enogh time stopping the harassment, let alone setting up new expos. This map makes that strategy unbeatable.

Also, it isn't like toss can just bring in a large enough force using shuttles to do any damage. You must remember that the terran is massing, so they have a huge army, AND terran can place a few turrets down, which eat shuttles alive.

Terran doesn't have to move out at 200/200, but when a successul "tornado terran" moves out, they are nearly unstoppable.

Damn, i wish i was a pro melee player...

But doesnt getting eight carriers take some time too? I have no problem with wraiths :/

Guys i dont mean to anger you in anyway but im just listing some possibilities.

EDIT: Modified below

I dont see any ramps for purple...