Report, edit, etc...Posted by Helios on 2004-05-23 at 22:30:48
Free will doesnt exist. Only the illusion of of free will, because the causes of our behavior are so complex that we cant trace them back. If you've got one line of dominoes knocking each other down one by one , then you can always say, Look, this domino fellbecause that one pushed it. But when you have an infinite number of dominoes that can be traced back in an infinite number of directions, you can never find where the causal chain begins. So you think, that domino fell because it wanted to.
Even if there is no such thing as free will, we have to treat each other as if there 'were' free will in order to live together in society. Because otherwise, every time somebody does something terrible you cant punish him, because he cant help it, because his genes or his enviorment or God made him do it. And every time somebody does something good, you cant honor him, because he was a puppet too. If you think that everybody around you is a puppet, why bother talking to them at all? Why even try to plan anything or create anything, since everything you plan or create or desire or dream of is just acting out the script your puppeteer built into you.
So we convince ourselves and everyone around us as volitional beings. We treat everyone as if they did things with a purpose in mind, instead of because they're being pushed from behind. We punish criminals, we reward altruist. We plan things and build things together. We make promisesand expect each other to keep them. Its all made-up story, but when everybody belives that everybody's actions are the result of free choice, and takes and gives responsibility accordingly. the result is civilization.
Even though Im not sure I belive this myself its only an idead. But I say that I am civilized and therefor I must believe the story, but in which case I absolutely believe in free will, and the whole idea, "is a made-up story" is nonesense but thats what I'd believe even if it were true, and who can be sure of anything.
"Either were free or we arent"
The point is we 'have' to belive the story is true in order to live as civilized human beings, but thats not the point at all Because if its a lie why should we bother to live as civilized human beings? Because the species has a better chance to survive if we do. Because our genes require us to believe the story to be true, in order to enhance our ability to pass along those genes on for many generations in the future. Because anybody who doesnt believe the story begins to act i unproductive, uncooperative ways, and eventually the community,the herd, will reject him and his opportunities for reproduction will bhe diminished. For instance he'll be put in jail and the genes leading to his un-believing behavior will eventually be extinguished.
So the puppeteer requires that we believe that were not puppets, were forced to believe in free will (Ironic)
But do I believe that there is no free will? Of course not, my puppeteer wont let me..
Even if there is no such thing as free will, we have to treat each other as if there 'were' free will in order to live together in society. Because otherwise, every time somebody does something terrible you cant punish him, because he cant help it, because his genes or his enviorment or God made him do it. And every time somebody does something good, you cant honor him, because he was a puppet too. If you think that everybody around you is a puppet, why bother talking to them at all? Why even try to plan anything or create anything, since everything you plan or create or desire or dream of is just acting out the script your puppeteer built into you.
So we convince ourselves and everyone around us as volitional beings. We treat everyone as if they did things with a purpose in mind, instead of because they're being pushed from behind. We punish criminals, we reward altruist. We plan things and build things together. We make promisesand expect each other to keep them. Its all made-up story, but when everybody belives that everybody's actions are the result of free choice, and takes and gives responsibility accordingly. the result is civilization.
Even though Im not sure I belive this myself its only an idead. But I say that I am civilized and therefor I must believe the story, but in which case I absolutely believe in free will, and the whole idea, "is a made-up story" is nonesense but thats what I'd believe even if it were true, and who can be sure of anything.
"Either were free or we arent"
The point is we 'have' to belive the story is true in order to live as civilized human beings, but thats not the point at all Because if its a lie why should we bother to live as civilized human beings? Because the species has a better chance to survive if we do. Because our genes require us to believe the story to be true, in order to enhance our ability to pass along those genes on for many generations in the future. Because anybody who doesnt believe the story begins to act i unproductive, uncooperative ways, and eventually the community,the herd, will reject him and his opportunities for reproduction will bhe diminished. For instance he'll be put in jail and the genes leading to his un-believing behavior will eventually be extinguished.
So the puppeteer requires that we believe that were not puppets, were forced to believe in free will (Ironic)
But do I believe that there is no free will? Of course not, my puppeteer wont let me..
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yoshi da Sniper on 2004-05-23 at 22:33:03
Well said! Its very true.
However, free will is a matter of control. Someone is always trying to control your free will. Its the ultimate greed in everyone. Police go after anyone they want in some countries because they can remove someones free will without getting punished.
However, free will is a matter of control. Someone is always trying to control your free will. Its the ultimate greed in everyone. Police go after anyone they want in some countries because they can remove someones free will without getting punished.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by -black-death- on 2004-05-23 at 22:40:45
QUOTE(Helios @ May 23 2004, 09:30 PM)
Free will doesnt exist. Only the illusion of of free will, because the causes of our behavior are so complex that we cant trace them back.
I disagree with this statement.
If I have a choice of whether or not to stab myself with a knife, I'm going to choose not to. Free will alows me to decide what to do with the knife. The reasons for why I do not want to stab myself can be traced IMO. I don't want to stab myself for a ton of reasons:
- my mother and father told me not to cut myself (that is so strange sounding
). - I saw someone cut themselves on TV and it didn't look like a pleasant experience.
- I have accidently cut myself in the past, and I did not enjoy it.
- etc, etc, etc.
Basically, i don't think there are an infinite amount of dominoes (or reasons for me not to cut myself). Maybe too many to acknowledge them all, but enough for me to make a decision.
I had a choice of whether or not to cut myself, and I chose not to. If that isn't free will, then what is?
b.d
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Helios on 2004-05-23 at 22:57:12
QUOTE(-black-death- @ May 23 2004, 09:40 PM)
There are thousands of reasons why not to cut myself, therefore out of free will, I do not cut myself.
Basically, i don't think there are an infinite amount of dominoes (or reasons for me not to cut myself). Maybe too many to acknowledge them all, but enough for me to make a decision.
Basically, i don't think there are an infinite amount of dominoes (or reasons for me not to cut myself). Maybe too many to acknowledge them all, but enough for me to make a decision.
You forgot one genes Its programmed into you and every human for that matter, we are programmed not to voluntarily harm ourselves because it would in-danger our survival. Pain is another 'programmed' response to not cut yourself, as you said you accidentally cut yourself before in the past and you didnt enjoy it.
Those reason alone would stop you from cutting yourself and probaly the most imporatant
and this statement alone:
QUOTE
my mother and father told me not to cut myself (that is so strange sounding ).
means that you are not directly in control of your decision not to cut yourself
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Demantrix on 2004-05-23 at 23:00:39
you guys make my brain hurt! : 
:
i do believe in free will, there is no other way to live, if there were a puppeteer controlling our lives, there would be no differance in any of us.we would be no white, black, chinese, nothing, we'd all be a weird redish black color. there has to be free will, otherwise there is no life, no journey, no adventure that the true life of a person is
:i do believe in free will, there is no other way to live, if there were a puppeteer controlling our lives, there would be no differance in any of us.we would be no white, black, chinese, nothing, we'd all be a weird redish black color. there has to be free will, otherwise there is no life, no journey, no adventure that the true life of a person is
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Staredit.Net Essence on 2004-05-23 at 23:07:03
What else did you espect?
I was born without even asking it.
I was raised in a religion I do not even believe in.
I was introduced and trained in values my parents believed in.
I was forced into school.
My body forces me to eat and drink.
I cannot stay awake undefenatly.
The whole discussion is roaming around the MATERIAL body, which, any real free will is directed by death itself; the lack of life.
We're naturally searching the best for ourselves, some find it in their jobs, some in their pass-times, others in violence, it's still all a matter of free will, the same will the pushes us NOT the be free in the first place...
This is so ironic... You will NEVER be able to reach freedom; yet, you are encouraged to be search it...
I was born without even asking it.
I was raised in a religion I do not even believe in.
I was introduced and trained in values my parents believed in.
I was forced into school.
My body forces me to eat and drink.
I cannot stay awake undefenatly.
The whole discussion is roaming around the MATERIAL body, which, any real free will is directed by death itself; the lack of life.
We're naturally searching the best for ourselves, some find it in their jobs, some in their pass-times, others in violence, it's still all a matter of free will, the same will the pushes us NOT the be free in the first place...
This is so ironic... You will NEVER be able to reach freedom; yet, you are encouraged to be search it...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Demantrix on 2004-05-23 at 23:16:05
hmmm, a interesting point, but raises new questions
when you die, if astral forms are taken, you would lose the worldly rights
no love, no hate, the only true way to be free and in TOTAL control is to be a god, when human you cant be free, in death you cant be free, but free will isnt about that, free will is the choice to enjoy both, to move from one to the other and enjoy its priveliges and mourn its loss, free will is near impossible to abtain, but is what cause life, your parents and grandparents, etc. all had the choice to life and childbirth, but could not see truth, free wil and control are different anfd the some, one in both, a paridox of time and space, free will is the choice to abtain and use free will.
when you die, if astral forms are taken, you would lose the worldly rights
no love, no hate, the only true way to be free and in TOTAL control is to be a god, when human you cant be free, in death you cant be free, but free will isnt about that, free will is the choice to enjoy both, to move from one to the other and enjoy its priveliges and mourn its loss, free will is near impossible to abtain, but is what cause life, your parents and grandparents, etc. all had the choice to life and childbirth, but could not see truth, free wil and control are different anfd the some, one in both, a paridox of time and space, free will is the choice to abtain and use free will.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by -black-death- on 2004-05-23 at 23:45:18
I see your point involving cutting yourself.
But I was raised as a Christian.
I exercise free will by being an agnostic, right?
b.d
But I was raised as a Christian.
I exercise free will by being an agnostic, right?
b.d
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Helios on 2004-05-23 at 23:46:37
QUOTE(Demantrix @ May 23 2004, 10:16 PM)
no love, no hate, the only true way to be free and in TOTAL control is to be a god
exactly a "God" could do what they want when they want because they choose to do so.
QUOTE
there has to be free will, otherwise there is no life, no journey, no adventure that the true life of a person is
Thats exactly what the puppeteer what you to believe
QUOTE
free will and control are different anfd the some, one in both, a paridox of time and space, free will is the choice to abtain and use free will.
without any system of control free will would be everywhere in the universe but then nothing would exist, it would be total chaos. Everything "is" because of some form of control over something else.
Now going beyond simple human "free will", gravity is a system of control over matter, and at a subatomic level it is what holds atoms together in the first place.
with out this system of control electrons,protons,neutrons would just fly around aimlessly through out the universe
but It comes down to just accepting that we are not in control, because it comes back down to what I said earlier if we are only acting out some script then what the point of doing anything? civilization would cease to exist.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Demantrix on 2004-05-24 at 13:14:37
if we are merely acting out the script of the puppetereer, then who controls him, you say ther is no free will but in order for our pupeteer to exist, ther must be, cause then whos script does he run off of, we are control be us, a human is not actor, its a human.
Damn, i thats the must brain cells i used in awhile...
Damn, i thats the must brain cells i used in awhile...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Helios on 2004-05-24 at 13:55:56
QUOTE(Demantrix @ May 24 2004, 12:14 PM)
if we are merely acting out the script of the puppetereer, then who controls him, you say ther is no free will but in order for our pupeteer to exist, ther must be, cause then whos script does he run off of, we are control be us, a human is not actor, its a human
The puppeteer does not have to be a "him" or a "her", our genes are puppeteers controlling us all the time, and the combination of your mother and fathers genes controlled yours to grow into your own unique genes, and so on ect. Like I said everything at one point was controlled by something else so anything they do is the effect of their previous "controlled" state.
This is just like the infinite dominoes, everything happened because something else happened, and that event occured because something else caused it to and so on forever.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by flaming_X on 2004-05-24 at 15:46:04
skipping all the crap that does not matter...
Free will DOES exsist. It is just something that we cannot control. For you see, going off the domino effect example, someone had to push one domino to get it started. In that case, someone has willingly want all the other dominos to fall over. As you can see, free will controls everyones will. It is kind of hard to explain, but free will is the thing that makes the first domino fall. Also, if we are all puppets, then it would have ot be something elses free will that controls us. For you see, free will has to exsist in something, even if we are not the controls.
Like Blackdeath said, he would not kill him self or cut himself with a knife, because of past experiences, but you see that those past experiences are the dominos on why he wont. But those past experiences were started by another past experience, until it has to get back to they were started by somethings free will.
For you see, people cannot just decide on day to walk outside and make fire, they must understand what they are doing. Then it is UP TO THEM to make it. Nothing is forcing them to do it, they just want to or not want to.
Thus, this free will thing is total bull . We all control our lives, otherwise everything would be fate. FATE DOES NOT EXSIST! To prove my point, if fate did exsist and humans somehow made a time machine, then we would screw up fate. Thus, fate would be altered from one path to another, but it was changed under a beings will!
Basically, this conversation comes down to two things, fate and choice. Like so, was it fate that I would type this? No, because if something came from the future and killed me before now, then this would not be typed. Then, obviously, I started typing this not expecting my pass to be changed, and did it by choice!
Free will DOES exsist. It is just something that we cannot control. For you see, going off the domino effect example, someone had to push one domino to get it started. In that case, someone has willingly want all the other dominos to fall over. As you can see, free will controls everyones will. It is kind of hard to explain, but free will is the thing that makes the first domino fall. Also, if we are all puppets, then it would have ot be something elses free will that controls us. For you see, free will has to exsist in something, even if we are not the controls.
Like Blackdeath said, he would not kill him self or cut himself with a knife, because of past experiences, but you see that those past experiences are the dominos on why he wont. But those past experiences were started by another past experience, until it has to get back to they were started by somethings free will.
For you see, people cannot just decide on day to walk outside and make fire, they must understand what they are doing. Then it is UP TO THEM to make it. Nothing is forcing them to do it, they just want to or not want to.
Thus, this free will thing is total bull
. We all control our lives, otherwise everything would be fate. FATE DOES NOT EXSIST! To prove my point, if fate did exsist and humans somehow made a time machine, then we would screw up fate. Thus, fate would be altered from one path to another, but it was changed under a beings will!Basically, this conversation comes down to two things, fate and choice. Like so, was it fate that I would type this? No, because if something came from the future and killed me before now, then this would not be typed. Then, obviously, I started typing this not expecting my pass to be changed, and did it by choice!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Helios on 2004-05-24 at 16:46:53
QUOTE(flaming_X @ May 24 2004, 02:46 PM)
Thus, this free will thing is total bull . We all control our lives, otherwise everything would be fate. FATE DOES NOT EXSIST! To prove my point, if fate did exsist and humans somehow made a time machine, then we would screw up fate. Thus, fate would be altered from one path to another, but it was changed under a beings will!
. We all control our lives, otherwise everything would be fate. FATE DOES NOT EXSIST! To prove my point, if fate did exsist and humans somehow made a time machine, then we would screw up fate. Thus, fate would be altered from one path to another, but it was changed under a beings will!Then how do you know that It was not fate that led you to build the time machine in the first place? Then fate would not be screwed up but only going accordingly to plan.
Im not trying to say that free will does not exist, but a person truly could never know what Is or Is not fate. How do you know that It wa not fate that first led you to buy a computer in the first place so that you would eventually one day read upon this very message and respon accordingly, and maybe this is a little to mystical and a bit off subject, eh?
[quote]
For you see, people cannot just decide on day to walk outside and make fire, they must understand what they are doing. Then it is UP TO THEM to make it. Nothing is forcing them to do it, they just want to or not want to.[/qoute]
I seriously doubt the first humans built fire because they "wanted" to, it was probaly during the time of an ice age when they need fire to keep warm to live. and Yet again even for people now we do not go out and make fire for no reason usually it is for soem reason or some desire (like pyromania) but those feeling yet again could be controlled by someone else "something" else, and you disbelive because your genes wont let you believe it
once again we are controlled and we dont even know it...Like me and Dematrix said the only thing that could be "free-willed" is a God, that and the so called Chaos theory. which is the ultimate thing that drives all things in the universe Imo, and all things react accordingly.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Sinister_X on 2004-05-24 at 17:03:00
i've seen some very good points but in the end there will always be free will
we do not cut ourselfs because instinct tells us to survive
no one will ever be "forced" to do anything there will always be another choice but often the other choice is worse than the first one for example
a man takes you an tells you to give them all your money or he will kill you
you have the free will not to you can take the pain if you chose to but once again instinct tells us that living is priority one but instinct can be overridden
instinct merely places what it decides to be the best idea in our heads
You cant be forced to go to school you could take a stand and say "hell no I am not going to school i refuse" you have so many choices with that being said there are too many to count you could do anything you could run away you could just not get on the bus you could fight you even kill your parent and get sent to jail yet you chose to go to school because instinct tells you its the best choice instinct says you will go to school or you will be in pain pain is bad you may run away but you fear may not live life to its full extent and living life to its full extent is good but
its only putting the idea in your head you can always override it even reflexes can be overridden if someone swings at me i no longer back away i will take the hit and retaliate are you people getting my point
we do not cut ourselfs because instinct tells us to survive
no one will ever be "forced" to do anything there will always be another choice but often the other choice is worse than the first one for example
a man takes you an tells you to give them all your money or he will kill you
you have the free will not to you can take the pain if you chose to but once again instinct tells us that living is priority one but instinct can be overridden
instinct merely places what it decides to be the best idea in our heads
You cant be forced to go to school you could take a stand and say "hell no I am not going to school i refuse" you have so many choices with that being said there are too many to count you could do anything you could run away you could just not get on the bus you could fight you even kill your parent and get sent to jail yet you chose to go to school because instinct tells you its the best choice instinct says you will go to school or you will be in pain pain is bad you may run away but you fear may not live life to its full extent and living life to its full extent is good but
its only putting the idea in your head you can always override it even reflexes can be overridden if someone swings at me i no longer back away i will take the hit and retaliate are you people getting my point
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Andy on 2004-05-24 at 17:22:52
I do not believe there is an infinite number of dominos. You can't say humans are programmed not to injure themselfs. I have seen people stab themselves with swords, and shoot themselves, and such. I think that we make choices based on experance, and that your parents telling you something is based on experance. Memorys are not passed on through genes, so if we are separated from our parents, we will make different choices based on our experance without our parents.
I was born, and am glad of it.
I was born caltholic, and I believe in it.
I have different values then my parents. I value being the best at life. They value helping less fortunate people.
I like to go to school, I would have not met any of my friends if I hadn't.
I eat and drink for energy, not to survive. I use the energy to be better.
I like to sleep so that I will be able to live my next day at full energy.
I was born, and am glad of it.
I was born caltholic, and I believe in it.
I have different values then my parents. I value being the best at life. They value helping less fortunate people.
I like to go to school, I would have not met any of my friends if I hadn't.
I eat and drink for energy, not to survive. I use the energy to be better.
I like to sleep so that I will be able to live my next day at full energy.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by flaming_X on 2004-05-24 at 18:11:04
QUOTE
Then how do you know that It was not fate that led you to build the time machine in the first place? Then fate would not be screwed up but only going accordingly to plan.
Yes, but if you go back in time and screw up time, then fate never led you to build the machine! Think about it!
This is kind of like considering that someones father is their son. Is that possible? Yes? Has it been done...who knows!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by -black-death- on 2004-05-24 at 18:34:40
After thinking about this i've decided:
Free will can neither be proved nor disproved.
But that doesn't mean we can't have an opinion regarding it. God can neither be proved or disproved, but I'm not for the abolition or mass induction of Christianity.
If you are a 'puppet' to your past experiences, and you make your decisions not because of free will, but because of those past experiences, then you are doing what those past experiences/what your brain tells you to do. But isn't that free will? The freedom to do what your brain tells you, or to choose not to do what your brain tells you?
I may feel the urge to masturbate right now. My brain is telling me to masturbate. But my brain also is telling me to exercise free will and not masturbate, because my grandmother is five feet away (not really, but for the sake of this post she is). To say that it wasn't my will to masturbate, but my brain's will doesn't make much sense, being that I am my brain.
So, that's why I think free will exists. But, yes, I could have been predestined to think what I think.
How do you 'screw up time'? Does the act of going back in time 'screw it up'? I don't think your argument makes sense. I think you could definitely be predestined to build a time machine and go back in time. But i also believe that is highly unlikely.
b.d
Free will can neither be proved nor disproved.
But that doesn't mean we can't have an opinion regarding it. God can neither be proved or disproved, but I'm not for the abolition or mass induction of Christianity.
If you are a 'puppet' to your past experiences, and you make your decisions not because of free will, but because of those past experiences, then you are doing what those past experiences/what your brain tells you to do. But isn't that free will? The freedom to do what your brain tells you, or to choose not to do what your brain tells you?
I may feel the urge to masturbate right now. My brain is telling me to masturbate. But my brain also is telling me to exercise free will and not masturbate, because my grandmother is five feet away (not really, but for the sake of this post she is). To say that it wasn't my will to masturbate, but my brain's will doesn't make much sense, being that I am my brain.
So, that's why I think free will exists. But, yes, I could have been predestined to think what I think.
QUOTE
Yes, but if you go back in time and screw up time, then fate never led you to build the machine! Think about it!
How do you 'screw up time'? Does the act of going back in time 'screw it up'? I don't think your argument makes sense. I think you could definitely be predestined to build a time machine and go back in time. But i also believe that is highly unlikely.
b.d
Report, edit, etc...Posted by EzDay281 on 2004-05-24 at 20:18:14
Okay, there was simply too much even for ME to read without getting bored.
Anyway, someone could choose to cut themself, even if instinct says no.
People cut themselves all the time. People intentionaly allow damage and pain to be inflicted on them. Now, if instinct were the ultimate control, then why would this be?
Also, if it is coded in our genes to decide what we will do, then who coded our genes?
Or are you saying that everything in the entire universe was decided by the very first, 1 random thing to happen?
If you were to hand me a loaded gun, despite w/e the hell my instinct says, I'd be dead. Yes, my instinct would say "You dumbass, when you pull the trigger, you'll be dead, so don't!!"... but I don't have to listen to instinct.
Anyway, someone could choose to cut themself, even if instinct says no.
People cut themselves all the time. People intentionaly allow damage and pain to be inflicted on them. Now, if instinct were the ultimate control, then why would this be?
Also, if it is coded in our genes to decide what we will do, then who coded our genes?
Or are you saying that everything in the entire universe was decided by the very first, 1 random thing to happen?
If you were to hand me a loaded gun, despite w/e the hell my instinct says, I'd be dead. Yes, my instinct would say "You dumbass, when you pull the trigger, you'll be dead, so don't!!"... but I don't have to listen to instinct.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Buletbutter on 2004-05-24 at 21:56:40
A good book to read about the source of free will, through a pagans eyes, is "Paradise Lost" by John Milton. Great book!
Everyone has free will. Its just the fact that everything in todays world, mainly media, has a form of controlling people. Did you know that only 3 people control all media types? If one person could control all media types we would all easily be brainwashed to do what that person wanted. Not true you say? We answer me this. Who in their right mind would go to Taco Bell or Windys at 1a.m.? Chances are you don't even know you are hungry around that time if you are not watching T.V. . Commercials come on t.v. close to this time for the purpose of making you think of food. Watch any channel around midnight and you will notice that the commercials are always food related (basic cable). Subscription channels usually do not because they use a different kind of mind manipulation.
Subscription channels offer you more movies/shows with less commercials to gear you away from basic. They get you to spend more money.
These are just a few of the reasons I do not watch t.v. I believe that regular television watchers are being brainwashed. Most people now days schedule their lives around their favorite shows. Why?!?! Free will or Mind manipulation?
One can argue that it's free will. But tunning into your favorite show 28 days in a row will form a habit and it will start to control you. The pressures of life are the only thing that can pull you away from habits. I was at work today and some new employee was irate because she was supposed to get off at 7 but couldn't. She was mad cause she was missing her show. I seriously thought she was going to quit.
I think Free will and mind manipulation go hand in hand. People do have free will, just not everyone uses it because of mind manipulation. For example, people think you HAVE to go to work to make money, which is false, and go through their whole lives working at an underpaying job because they think thats how you make money.
I would really like to meet the person who created the so called standard of morals. Its not nice to talk with your mouth full.....says who! That rule conflicts with my free will to do what I want. Of course, if someone was to have complete free will, they would assuredly have to face the consequences. I do possess the ability the kill anyone I wanted, or at least try. But I do not do it, not because I can't or I don't have free will, but rather because I do not want to deal with the consequences.
Consequences are in place by government or other people to hinder free will, but that does not nessecarrily mean that we just absolutely cannot do it.
Free Will does exist and we all posses this attribute. We are confined to only be able to do what we should instead of what we want because of consequences.
Everyone has free will. Its just the fact that everything in todays world, mainly media, has a form of controlling people. Did you know that only 3 people control all media types? If one person could control all media types we would all easily be brainwashed to do what that person wanted. Not true you say? We answer me this. Who in their right mind would go to Taco Bell or Windys at 1a.m.? Chances are you don't even know you are hungry around that time if you are not watching T.V. . Commercials come on t.v. close to this time for the purpose of making you think of food. Watch any channel around midnight and you will notice that the commercials are always food related (basic cable). Subscription channels usually do not because they use a different kind of mind manipulation.
Subscription channels offer you more movies/shows with less commercials to gear you away from basic. They get you to spend more money.
These are just a few of the reasons I do not watch t.v. I believe that regular television watchers are being brainwashed. Most people now days schedule their lives around their favorite shows. Why?!?! Free will or Mind manipulation?
One can argue that it's free will. But tunning into your favorite show 28 days in a row will form a habit and it will start to control you. The pressures of life are the only thing that can pull you away from habits. I was at work today and some new employee was irate because she was supposed to get off at 7 but couldn't. She was mad cause she was missing her show. I seriously thought she was going to quit.
I think Free will and mind manipulation go hand in hand. People do have free will, just not everyone uses it because of mind manipulation. For example, people think you HAVE to go to work to make money, which is false, and go through their whole lives working at an underpaying job because they think thats how you make money.
I would really like to meet the person who created the so called standard of morals. Its not nice to talk with your mouth full.....says who! That rule conflicts with my free will to do what I want. Of course, if someone was to have complete free will, they would assuredly have to face the consequences. I do possess the ability the kill anyone I wanted, or at least try. But I do not do it, not because I can't or I don't have free will, but rather because I do not want to deal with the consequences.
Consequences are in place by government or other people to hinder free will, but that does not nessecarrily mean that we just absolutely cannot do it.
Free Will does exist and we all posses this attribute. We are confined to only be able to do what we should instead of what we want because of consequences.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Helios on 2004-05-24 at 22:29:53
QUOTE(-black-death- @ May 24 2004, 05:34 PM)
After thinking about this i've decided:
Free will can neither be proved nor disproved.
If you are a 'puppet' to your past experiences, and you make your decisions not because of free will, but because of those past experiences, then you are doing what those past experiences/what your brain tells you to do. But isn't that free will? The freedom to do what your brain tells you, or to choose not to do what your brain tells you?
I may feel the urge to masturbate right now. My brain is telling me to masturbate. But my brain also is telling me to exercise free will and not masturbate, because my grandmother is five feet away (not really, but for the sake of this post she is). To say that it wasn't my will to masturbate, but my brain's will doesn't make much sense, being that I am my brain.
So, that's why I think free will exists. But, yes, I could have been predestined to think what I think.
How do you 'screw up time'? Does the act of going back in time 'screw it up'? I don't think your argument makes sense. I think you could definitely be predestined to build a time machine and go back in time. But i also believe that is highly unlikely.
b.d
Free will can neither be proved nor disproved.
If you are a 'puppet' to your past experiences, and you make your decisions not because of free will, but because of those past experiences, then you are doing what those past experiences/what your brain tells you to do. But isn't that free will? The freedom to do what your brain tells you, or to choose not to do what your brain tells you?
I may feel the urge to masturbate right now. My brain is telling me to masturbate. But my brain also is telling me to exercise free will and not masturbate, because my grandmother is five feet away (not really, but for the sake of this post she is). To say that it wasn't my will to masturbate, but my brain's will doesn't make much sense, being that I am my brain.
So, that's why I think free will exists. But, yes, I could have been predestined to think what I think.
QUOTE
Yes, but if you go back in time and screw up time, then fate never led you to build the machine! Think about it!
How do you 'screw up time'? Does the act of going back in time 'screw it up'? I don't think your argument makes sense. I think you could definitely be predestined to build a time machine and go back in time. But i also believe that is highly unlikely.
b.d
Thats exactly what Ive been trying to say Fate/Puppeteers/Destiny can never be proven or disproven. Just the very nature of going about to do such a thing would basically require you to remove yourself from the universe all together.
QUOTE
If you are a 'puppet' to your past experiences, and you make your decisions not because of free will, but because of those past experiences, then you are doing what those past experiences/what your brain tells you to do. But isn't that free will? The freedom to do what your brain tells you, or to choose not to do what your brain tells you?
Whats this about "your" brain and listening to what it tells "you" to do? I find this highly strange people always saying body parts as if they are not directly part of you but some possesion not already "yours". Your brain is you and you are your brain so there is no "listening" to your brain you are only doing what you have supposedly thought of.
I suppose that If your grandmother were not there you would masterbate but her very pressence stops you from doing that shameful act
but then I suppose that you could choose to go ahead and masterbate no matter the consequences. I have a friend that says that there is no such thing as control only consequences to those actions, quote: "If a person were to break into my house and point a gun at me and say dont move or I shoot, I have the "choice" to either obey the intruder or not to and the consequences would be to be shot" Yes the very act of going back in time screws it up, because unless you were to remain invisible in every spectrum and unable to interact with the universe around you while in that "past" you will have some effect. Even if you do nothing but step on the ground you will have some effect an animal may come along sniff your footprint for too long and end up getting eaten, that same animal may have eventually been the first link in a chain of some new species. And all along this may have been fate, maybe you were supposed to build that time machine and "screw up" the time line but in effect thats how it happened all along. Suppose that the time you went back to say 1400, now back in 1400 "you" all of a sudden popped out of nowhere into this time "screwed-up" what you were supposed to screw up and then left and went back to your time. but say someone saw you and it was recorded in some forgotten history. So you end up existing before "you" existed, ah I see you are now all probaly confused
amazing how this all relates to "Free-will" but seems so off topic...But to get down past these ultimate "puppeteers" or Gods,
Right now IO could say I have the free will to either go read a good book (Xenocide by Orson scott card) or continue to stay online and continue this discusion on this forum as well as the same discusion on 2 other Forums. But right now I choose to stay here and there is nothing else that controlls my decision.
Someone also metioned earlier about the free will to go to school, not everyone is in the same situation for one so the option of "choice" is different, like me for instance I could very well choose not to go to school tommorow and just ride around in my car but I choose to go. For one because I have finals in every single class tommorow, but the fact that I have an A in every one of those classes so not taking the final would only lower my grade 7% nullifies the "need" to go to school. So Im back at square one, with complete free-will to go to school or not. So I guess free will does exist in small means.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by flaming_X on 2004-05-24 at 23:30:02
Shouldn't it be my free will to post who I hate? I mean, why should I get in trouble for telling them I hate them? Especially when they actually seem to laugh at it! Well...most of them... Hmm. I think I inspired SEN! Maybe Yoshi is like that old timer who needs to let SEN move on and just get rid of the warn level except for spammers!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yoshi da Sniper on 2004-05-24 at 23:32:13
1. Do you have to do this in the off topic forum?
2. WHY CANT YOU DO IT OVER PM. THATS WHY ITS THERE.
3. Actually, I like Pinecone and Sinster. Its YOU I dont like right now.
Do NOT post about this any more. If I see it again there will be conseqences.
2. WHY CANT YOU DO IT OVER PM. THATS WHY ITS THERE.
3. Actually, I like Pinecone and Sinster. Its YOU I dont like right now.
Do NOT post about this any more. If I see it again there will be conseqences.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Staredit.Net Essence on 2004-05-25 at 09:35:29
theres only one word to express slavery.... parents !!!! 
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Staredit.Net Essence on 2004-05-25 at 11:56:36
You guys blow this way out of proportion.
According to your theory you have never made a decision on your own before because free will doesnt exist.
According to your theory you have never made a decision on your own before because free will doesnt exist.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yoshi da Sniper on 2004-05-25 at 13:02:32
I make decisions all the time here. For example, if to approve or deny a submittion, what to tell someone when they're being stupid, and so on. If someone decides to post here, they're also doing it out of their free will because no ones forcing them to post.