Report, edit, etc...Posted by Phoenix_Armada on 2006-01-02 at 20:34:31
Lost Temple used to be a quaint little melee map used commonly for ladder games. More recently though, it's being abused (to put it lightly).
I'm sure you've all realized that 80% of all melee games hosted on Starcraft take place on Lost Temple. As a result, there are about 30+ versions of this map. It has become the fastest possible map for non money map gamers.
Besides the fact that having virtually one map to play on as a meleer is just plain stupid, it's also a bit unfair. I personally am a respectable player, I play somewhat intelligently and have a clear concept of the dos and don'ts. But more often than not, I lose against all those that host Lost temple 2v2's and 1v1's. I deserve to lose to about 60% of those players (they can be really good, they sometimes make me sweat, heh). But for the other 40% of those I lose to, I lose only because they have the whole map memorized, every crevice, every trick they can pull out with the highground or natural locations they use against anyone who dare oppose them. I clearly remember a game where I was practically evenly matched with my opponent, the only reason I lost was because he managed to fit a siege tank right outside my natural that would snipe all my miners constantly. I couldn't fit any defense in the area around the tank because the tiny spot where it was located didn't allow for any other units. By the time i could counter with air units, my economy was screwed and he had a huge advantage.
That was just one of the many situations that screw me all the time. This leads me to my other point:
I am aware that Lost Temple os overplayed, yes, yes. we all know. But why?? The map is less than garbage, it destroys all balance between races by giving Terran a HUGE advantage on all the high ground and small crevices. And the map bases vary from normal and plain to twisted and crooked (Because of the amazing ramp design). They had to alter the original Lost Temple so that the fixed versions were playable on the Ladder setting. Well sorry to tell you Blizzard, but it's still one of the most unbalanced maps out there, yet its the only melee map preferred by 80% of the Starcraft population. Why is that? Does anyone else see any logic in this? I sure don't.
If I had it my way, I would force people to use a different map every time they decide to host a game. Unfortunately this would force (once again) 80% of the starcraft population to leave the game forever, because they are too addicted to Lost Temple to try another map.
If I am the only one who feels this way, then we are likely to experience "The Great Depression" of Stacraft within a year. I will be one of those forced to leave the game forever. I don't want to have to go to that extreme, so I hope that everyone opens their minds and starts to host more original maps.
~Phoenix_Armada~
I'm sure you've all realized that 80% of all melee games hosted on Starcraft take place on Lost Temple. As a result, there are about 30+ versions of this map. It has become the fastest possible map for non money map gamers.
Besides the fact that having virtually one map to play on as a meleer is just plain stupid, it's also a bit unfair. I personally am a respectable player, I play somewhat intelligently and have a clear concept of the dos and don'ts. But more often than not, I lose against all those that host Lost temple 2v2's and 1v1's. I deserve to lose to about 60% of those players (they can be really good, they sometimes make me sweat, heh). But for the other 40% of those I lose to, I lose only because they have the whole map memorized, every crevice, every trick they can pull out with the highground or natural locations they use against anyone who dare oppose them. I clearly remember a game where I was practically evenly matched with my opponent, the only reason I lost was because he managed to fit a siege tank right outside my natural that would snipe all my miners constantly. I couldn't fit any defense in the area around the tank because the tiny spot where it was located didn't allow for any other units. By the time i could counter with air units, my economy was screwed and he had a huge advantage.
That was just one of the many situations that screw me all the time. This leads me to my other point:
I am aware that Lost Temple os overplayed, yes, yes. we all know. But why?? The map is less than garbage, it destroys all balance between races by giving Terran a HUGE advantage on all the high ground and small crevices. And the map bases vary from normal and plain to twisted and crooked (Because of the amazing ramp design). They had to alter the original Lost Temple so that the fixed versions were playable on the Ladder setting. Well sorry to tell you Blizzard, but it's still one of the most unbalanced maps out there, yet its the only melee map preferred by 80% of the Starcraft population. Why is that? Does anyone else see any logic in this? I sure don't.
If I had it my way, I would force people to use a different map every time they decide to host a game. Unfortunately this would force (once again) 80% of the starcraft population to leave the game forever, because they are too addicted to Lost Temple to try another map.
If I am the only one who feels this way, then we are likely to experience "The Great Depression" of Stacraft within a year. I will be one of those forced to leave the game forever. I don't want to have to go to that extreme, so I hope that everyone opens their minds and starts to host more original maps.
~Phoenix_Armada~
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Falcon_A on 2006-01-02 at 21:22:58
the first "fix" of this map was so 12 o clock could build a comsat at the natural. Besides the fact that it totally screws up the rige size proportions of each base, it certainly makes the map better, right? 
i wonder why i came on here, hm? LT can kiss my nuts, i play it because i have to, and when i see every fu¢king terran player out there do a barracks supply wall and 2 fac starport build, i feel like puking and leaving the game before i get another win.
but like i was saying...the whole point of me going on this site was for new maps to play melee...and some of the people here are really talented. i wont advertise the post about that being fixed because if you're reading this, you read the other one too
but i agree...lost temple is NOT very good. and the 'fixed' bliz version still is one of the worst to play on, people use the WGT versions and such..
and that reminds me of this time that i was at 3 o clock, and a tank up by 12 o clock's natural could hit my gas. at that point i had to take a shiz on the map.
but what are we gonna do? the meleers that aren't money always play lt, and always will. except for like the 2 games i see that are on blade storm and other almost good maps like that... but hey, i play others and i hope other people do too
i wonder why i came on here, hm? LT can kiss my nuts, i play it because i have to, and when i see every fu¢king terran player out there do a barracks supply wall and 2 fac starport build, i feel like puking and leaving the game before i get another win.
but like i was saying...the whole point of me going on this site was for new maps to play melee...and some of the people here are really talented. i wont advertise the post about that being fixed because if you're reading this, you read the other one too
but i agree...lost temple is NOT very good. and the 'fixed' bliz version still is one of the worst to play on, people use the WGT versions and such..
and that reminds me of this time that i was at 3 o clock, and a tank up by 12 o clock's natural could hit my gas. at that point i had to take a shiz on the map.
but what are we gonna do? the meleers that aren't money always play lt, and always will. except for like the 2 games i see that are on blade storm and other almost good maps like that... but hey, i play others and i hope other people do too
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Valug on 2006-01-02 at 21:47:51
[sub]Yep, SC's public melee is all crap. The best way around it is to mine a nice melee clan that plays real maps, and game with them. Thats what I do atleast. You can also try Battle.netX (PGT's private server) for good games, but I get sick of there also, because everyone seems to master the PGT maps, LT is played there, but the most popular map is Luna, which is a nice map, but people master it just like LT, so its no fun.
I prefer maps from BWMN and such when meleeing. The people there spent lots of time on their maps, making them very balanced before releasing them. Also a great place to make melee friends to game with.[/sub]
I prefer maps from BWMN and such when meleeing. The people there spent lots of time on their maps, making them very balanced before releasing them. Also a great place to make melee friends to game with.[/sub]
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Falcon_A on 2006-01-03 at 01:56:47
yeah some people do garbage things like that with LT and other maps (apparently with luna...)
sorry to be a noob but what is BWMN? is it that site Yenku recommended to me? broodwarmaps.net? seemed to fit the abbreviation, and i just wanted to know, because i see some damn nice ones there.
sorry to be a noob but what is BWMN? is it that site Yenku recommended to me? broodwarmaps.net? seemed to fit the abbreviation, and i just wanted to know, because i see some damn nice ones there.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Arden(WoF) on 2006-01-03 at 12:18:26
If You find some quality maps on that bwmn site, then please host them on b.net. I'm looking for some variety...
ADDITION:
By the way, I'm actually the host of this topic (previously known as Phoenix_Armada)
Spread the word!
ADDITION:
By the way, I'm actually the host of this topic (previously known as Phoenix_Armada)
Spread the word!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Red2Blue on 2006-01-03 at 15:06:25
Why not just host the original ladder map as intended? If Blizzard really wanted north's natural to be balanced with the rest they would have done so already. North has a good position anyway, with a huge cliffside on the right. High terrain advantage!!! GG!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Falcon_A on 2006-01-03 at 15:40:19
QUOTE
Why not just host the original ladder map as intended? If Blizzard really wanted north's natural to be balanced with the rest they would have done so already. North has a good position anyway, with a huge cliffside on the right. High terrain advantage!!! GG!
....actually, 98% of the bliz maps in the bw folder or sc maps folder are pure garbage and unbalanced in many ways...they get lazy.
they had to fix LT though, because E V E R Y O N E uses it. and actually, the "huge cliffside on the right"...
smallest ridge on the map.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by CheeZe on 2006-01-03 at 15:42:35
You guys are complaining like how Bobby Fischer complained about the opening of chess always being memorized.
The truth is, no matter what is used, people will memorize it. Any number of maps, they will. Look at proffessional chess players, they literally memorize hundreds of openings each with many many variatinos. This is the same as memorizing the map for weaknesses.
You can't stop it. Just deal with it.
The truth is, no matter what is used, people will memorize it. Any number of maps, they will. Look at proffessional chess players, they literally memorize hundreds of openings each with many many variatinos. This is the same as memorizing the map for weaknesses.
You can't stop it. Just deal with it.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Arden(WoF) on 2006-01-03 at 16:22:41
All that stuff about them memorizing the map and the fact that everyone uses it is just icing. The main point I was trying to get across was: Lost Temple is an unbalanced piece of crap, and I'm sick of playing on it. I need to see more original maps.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Falcon_A on 2006-01-04 at 00:32:50
yeah, cheeze, you're right, but thats not the point. (though i must agree with you)
lost temple is garbage.
that's the point i think we're making here...
but hell, even SC is chess now. i see terran openings, i see all these fooles in 1v1s that are good for 5 minutes when they follow their build order and then sux0r my nutz0r...
eh..but you're right...what can ya do..
lost temple is garbage.
that's the point i think we're making here...
but hell, even SC is chess now. i see terran openings, i see all these fooles in 1v1s that are good for 5 minutes when they follow their build order and then sux0r my nutz0r...
eh..but you're right...what can ya do..
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Red2Blue on 2006-01-06 at 15:18:28
All games are about memorization. Without any memorizing on any strategy plan, you are an easy pk.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yenku on 2006-01-07 at 02:11:49
Stop being roosters, LT is a fantastic map.
Let people play it, they like it, its a balanced map. The imbalances you point out are easily reversible if you just play tough and suck it up..
ADDITION:
I didn't actually say rooster, that is just the filter...
QUOTE
It has become the fastest possible map for non money map gamers.
Shut up.Let people play it, they like it, its a balanced map. The imbalances you point out are easily reversible if you just play tough and suck it up..
ADDITION:
I didn't actually say rooster, that is just the filter...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Arden(WoF) on 2006-01-07 at 10:54:12
Geez. You people are impossible. Let me explain to you why I'm so against this map.
When I go on starcraft, I automatically click join to see the game list. It usually plays out like this: 40% UMS, 30% Fastest Possible/Zero Clutter, 4% Random shizty user maps that are very similar to fastest, but with less terrain creativity (if that's possible), 25% are hosted by good melee players on Lost Temple, and the last 1% of all the games on b.net (US East) are hosted by people like me, who think that Lost Temple is getting old and played out. They host either random blizz maps, or some WGT maps. These maps are never repeated, and some of them I've never played before, therefore I enjoy those games (not to mention they are more around my skill level, so my win/lose ratio against them is about 50/50).
I do admit, Lost Temple deserves a lot more credit than I've been giving it. It is after all one of the only maps ladder matches are playable on. And it's such a simple map design which is good for beginners (I know it helped me). But 90% of all the gamers that host lost temple games (I love percentages) are snobby,cocky, unsympathetic SOB's. A gamer I enjoy playing with might say: "GG", "You did ok, "Almost had me there", "Heh, you need to practice a bit more". But no. I hear this: "HAHAHA F*CKING NOOBZ0R!! MUWHAHAHA", "OMFG how do you suck soooooooooooooo bad", "wow, why the f*ck did you join dis, you = garbage". That, on top of all my other reasons, has amplified why I have come to dislike the map. (a bit unjust because it's mostly the players, but I stand by what I say).
All I want is a little more of the 1%. The people that host Random Blizz/WGT maps...
When I go on starcraft, I automatically click join to see the game list. It usually plays out like this: 40% UMS, 30% Fastest Possible/Zero Clutter, 4% Random shizty user maps that are very similar to fastest, but with less terrain creativity (if that's possible), 25% are hosted by good melee players on Lost Temple, and the last 1% of all the games on b.net (US East) are hosted by people like me, who think that Lost Temple is getting old and played out. They host either random blizz maps, or some WGT maps. These maps are never repeated, and some of them I've never played before, therefore I enjoy those games (not to mention they are more around my skill level, so my win/lose ratio against them is about 50/50).
I do admit, Lost Temple deserves a lot more credit than I've been giving it. It is after all one of the only maps ladder matches are playable on. And it's such a simple map design which is good for beginners (I know it helped me). But 90% of all the gamers that host lost temple games (I love percentages) are snobby,cocky, unsympathetic SOB's. A gamer I enjoy playing with might say: "GG", "You did ok, "Almost had me there", "Heh, you need to practice a bit more
". But no. I hear this: "HAHAHA F*CKING NOOBZ0R!! MUWHAHAHA", "OMFG how do you suck soooooooooooooo bad", "wow, why the f*ck did you join dis, you = garbage". That, on top of all my other reasons, has amplified why I have come to dislike the map. (a bit unjust because it's mostly the players, but I stand by what I say). All I want is a little more of the 1%. The people that host Random Blizz/WGT maps...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yenku on 2006-01-08 at 11:21:09
Just because you see so many people play it doesn't mean its a pile of shiz. In fact, I think its more of the opposite.
Also, why don't you just go to clan x17 and ask for 1v1s there? They play any pro maps, I even got some to play on mine. And if your looking for a nice place for playing above average players and on good maps (including LT) get on BnetX.
Also, why don't you just go to clan x17 and ask for 1v1s there? They play any pro maps, I even got some to play on mine. And if your looking for a nice place for playing above average players and on good maps (including LT) get on BnetX.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Arden(WoF) on 2006-01-08 at 16:42:16
"Bnetx" ???
Report, edit, etc...Posted by n0b0dy- on 2006-01-08 at 18:32:20
QUOTE(Valug @ Jan 2 2006, 09:47 PM)
[sub]Yep, SC's public melee is all crap. The best way around it is to mine a nice melee clan that plays real maps, and game with them. Thats what I do atleast. You can also try Battle.netX (PGT's private server) for good games, but I get sick of there also, because everyone seems to master the PGT maps, LT is played there, but the most popular map is Luna, which is a nice map, but people master it just like LT, so its no fun.
I prefer maps from BWMN and such when meleeing. The people there spent lots of time on their maps, making them very balanced before releasing them. Also a great place to make melee friends to game with.[/sub]
[right][snapback]396846[/snapback][/right]
I prefer maps from BWMN and such when meleeing. The people there spent lots of time on their maps, making them very balanced before releasing them. Also a great place to make melee friends to game with.[/sub]
[right][snapback]396846[/snapback][/right]
Yeah, so true. not to mention the amount of hackers on battle.net these days...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by pekkel_the_duck on 2006-01-08 at 18:33:56
QUOTE(Arden(WoF) @ Jan 8 2006, 01:42 PM)
"Bnetx" ???
[right][snapback]402092[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]402092[/snapback][/right]
http://www.pgtour.net/
Gosu.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yenku on 2006-01-08 at 20:37:13
Oh, sorry, I assumed you knew what it was, its just a hack free environment with alot of good players on good maps.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Arden(WoF) on 2006-01-15 at 11:58:34
Yeah, well it doesn't seem to be working too well...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yenku on 2006-01-15 at 14:46:50
BnetX? You cant get it to work?
You must turn it on, then go on SC BnetX, if you turn it on after you open SC it doesn't work.
You must turn it on, then go on SC BnetX, if you turn it on after you open SC it doesn't work.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Arden(WoF) on 2006-01-15 at 16:33:14
Well it's not that it doesn't work... I started a topic on that in the Freelancers section, check it out, and hopefully help me out.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yenku on 2006-01-16 at 08:36:59
Sure thing, but I wanna play you on LT. XD
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Arden(WoF) on 2006-01-16 at 09:21:03
I am Mediocre . My micro is horrible, my reaction speed is disgraceful, and my adaptation to new maps is disgusting...
But, I'm not all that bad...Just a lot worse than you... I'll 1v1 a comp for you and save the rep, you'll see that I'm not that great at all...
. My micro is horrible, my reaction speed is disgraceful, and my adaptation to new maps is disgusting...But, I'm not all that bad...Just a lot worse than you... I'll 1v1 a comp for you and save the rep, you'll see that I'm not that great at all...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yenku on 2006-01-16 at 09:28:16
Lol, You assume Im good, I just know how to critique maps.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Arden(WoF) on 2006-01-16 at 09:28:58
Here's a replay of me playing horribly..