Report, edit, etc...Posted by Arden(WoF) on 2006-01-03 at 15:09:26
I'm strictly a Protoss player (I decided to go single race when I realized how badly I sucked with Zerg). As a Protoss player, I enjoy nice wide open spaces for my beloved Goons to move around without bouncing off the walls and each other. However I can deal with a small map, it's irritating but I can live with it. What I can't deal with is an Island map. Especially when I don't realize that it's an island map until a few minutes in.
The Zerg and Terran races have no problems squeezing out semi-cheap wraiths coupled with tanks in dropships. And Zerg can own the skies with muta/devourer. Protoss however, is left completely in the dark with their expensive scouts and messy carriers. By the time a protoss player has salvaged enough mins to build up a fleet of scout/carriers any other race will have already taken a huge bite out of their base.
You might be thinking to yourselves "Why don't you just get a bunch of shuttles and drops ground units". Sorry, I tried that. When you're playing against people equal and higher than your skill level, chances are they will have build a few turrets, goliaths, or spires. These make short work of unprotected shuttles, and although it is possible to make the drop work, it still takes a lot more effort then it would for the other races.
So unless your Gosu (and even so) I see no way to effectively use Protoss against a good Terran or Zerg player on an Island map. If you have any ideas or strategies, please post them. They would be most welcome.
~Arden(WoF)~ Formerly known as ~Phoenix_Armada~
The Zerg and Terran races have no problems squeezing out semi-cheap wraiths coupled with tanks in dropships. And Zerg can own the skies with muta/devourer. Protoss however, is left completely in the dark with their expensive scouts and messy carriers. By the time a protoss player has salvaged enough mins to build up a fleet of scout/carriers any other race will have already taken a huge bite out of their base.
You might be thinking to yourselves "Why don't you just get a bunch of shuttles and drops ground units". Sorry, I tried that. When you're playing against people equal and higher than your skill level, chances are they will have build a few turrets, goliaths, or spires. These make short work of unprotected shuttles, and although it is possible to make the drop work, it still takes a lot more effort then it would for the other races.
So unless your Gosu (and even so) I see no way to effectively use Protoss against a good Terran or Zerg player on an Island map. If you have any ideas or strategies, please post them. They would be most welcome.
~Arden(WoF)~ Formerly known as ~Phoenix_Armada~
Report, edit, etc...Posted by CheeZe on 2006-01-03 at 15:32:52
Could you post some replays of you playing in that situation? I need to see exactly where you are. 
I was going to suggest something like corsairs and dweb (cost) and drop but it didn't seem right.
I was going to suggest something like corsairs and dweb (cost) and drop but it didn't seem right.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Arden(WoF) on 2006-01-03 at 15:42:55
You know, that's a good point. I never really considered using sair's webs to temporarily stun turrets while cleanly dropping in mass. I guess I always just used them to screw overlords 
. But what still bothers me, is the amount of shuttles one would have to make to drop a respectable force strong enough to take out a base.
As for the replays, I have a ladder replay of me and 2 others in a FFA. WE played on the worst ladder map in existence, although I can't seem to remember the name. It was on the iceland tileset - 4 players. I'm sure I have that replay floating around somewhere, I'll get back to you on that.
. But what still bothers me, is the amount of shuttles one would have to make to drop a respectable force strong enough to take out a base. As for the replays, I have a ladder replay of me and 2 others in a FFA. WE played on the worst ladder map in existence, although I can't seem to remember the name. It was on the iceland tileset - 4 players. I'm sure I have that replay floating around somewhere, I'll get back to you on that.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Red2Blue on 2006-01-03 at 23:29:50
Its not too hard to quick tech a shuttle then load a probe for a few cannons for zoning of expos is it? If it were that unbalanced then these kinds of maps wouldn't exist (island).
Toss has damaging sairs for cheap; and are extremely efficient in air battles (if you have enough of course).
Web owns all.
Toss has damaging sairs for cheap; and are extremely efficient in air battles (if you have enough of course).
Web owns all.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by pekkel_the_duck on 2006-01-04 at 00:24:58
I'd really like to see you post this at teamliquid.net just for the reactions.
On a more serious note, many consider that Protoss > Zerg on island maps. Why? Well, corsairs are very effective against mutalisks in numbers and carriers/sairs/storm used correctly is very hard to counter by any amount of zerg air you can throw out. And for destroying ground, the carriers and shuttle/reaver can take care of it pretty much. If zerg spend all his money on static defense, protoss can just dominate the air and starve the zerg out. Or you could go Nal_rA on him and hallucinate arbiters and recall.
I am not sure about PvT, though.
If you'd like, I can try to dig up a good PvZ on island and post it.
Oh, and I attached something fun to watch.
On a more serious note, many consider that Protoss > Zerg on island maps. Why? Well, corsairs are very effective against mutalisks in numbers and carriers/sairs/storm used correctly is very hard to counter by any amount of zerg air you can throw out. And for destroying ground, the carriers and shuttle/reaver can take care of it pretty much. If zerg spend all his money on static defense, protoss can just dominate the air and starve the zerg out. Or you could go Nal_rA on him and hallucinate arbiters and recall.
I am not sure about PvT, though.
If you'd like, I can try to dig up a good PvZ on island and post it.
Oh, and I attached something fun to watch.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Arden(WoF) on 2006-01-04 at 00:35:17
I wish I had good enough micro to efficiently squeeze out a Carrier/shuttle-reaver. (I always seem to lose my reavers too fast)
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yenku on 2006-01-05 at 22:14:28
Well, to start, play a map you KNOW. PvT, go arbs an goons. PvZ I am much less experienced, go sairs, maybe an arb or two for recalling with basic pvz build?
Starcraft is extremely balanced, Protoss in air maps is the biggest problem with the game, and you know what? Thats a tiny problem its still extrememly balanced even in a PvT air game and even a PvZ air game, it just depends on the map quality.
Starcraft is extremely balanced, Protoss in air maps is the biggest problem with the game, and you know what? Thats a tiny problem its still extrememly balanced even in a PvT air game and even a PvZ air game, it just depends on the map quality.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Arden(WoF) on 2006-01-06 at 06:26:30
Yeah, but don't try a PvT on Snowbound.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yenku on 2006-01-07 at 02:12:39
Who said snowbound is a good map?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Arden(WoF) on 2006-01-07 at 11:00:27
Could you give me the name of a good island map please? I personally think that's an oxymoron but hey, there might be one.
Note: Do not say (4)Gorky Island, I could make a whole separate topic about that map.
Note: Do not say (4)Gorky Island, I could make a whole separate topic about that map.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yenku on 2006-01-07 at 11:51:32
To name a few:
(4)Estrella
(4)Isle of Sirens
(4)Parallel Lines
Play those if you want a decent Island map. Those are only "pro" maps but there are many well made island maps on BWMN and if your desperate even playing on (4)Dire Straits isn't that bad.
(4)Estrella
(4)Isle of Sirens
(4)Parallel Lines
Play those if you want a decent Island map. Those are only "pro" maps but there are many well made island maps on BWMN and if your desperate even playing on (4)Dire Straits isn't that bad.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Arden(WoF) on 2006-01-07 at 12:19:23
Could I find those maps on BWMN?
And also, I'd like to see some replays on these maps. I'm curious how pros deal with island maps.
ADDITION:
I Found them all on BWMN thanks.
(Don't care too much for Parallel lines though)
And also, I'd like to see some replays on these maps. I'm curious how pros deal with island maps.
ADDITION:
I Found them all on BWMN thanks.
(Don't care too much for Parallel lines though)
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yenku on 2006-01-08 at 11:16:58
There was a Pimpest Play on Parallel Lines.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Arden(WoF) on 2006-01-08 at 16:43:01
Do you have the replay? If so, I'd like to see it.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by pekkel_the_duck on 2006-01-08 at 17:20:00
If you go to worldcybergames.com, you can find some reps on Estrella by some really good gamers during the WCG.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by n0b0dy- on 2006-01-08 at 18:29:00
QUOTE(Arden(WoF) @ Jan 3 2006, 03:09 PM)
I'm strictly a Protoss player (I decided to go single race when I realized how badly I sucked with Zerg). As a Protoss player, I enjoy nice wide open spaces for my beloved Goons to move around without bouncing off the walls and each other. However I can deal with a small map, it's irritating but I can live with it. What I can't deal with is an Island map. Especially when I don't realize that it's an island map until a few minutes in.
The Zerg and Terran races have no problems squeezing out semi-cheap wraiths coupled with tanks in dropships. And Zerg can own the skies with muta/devourer. Protoss however, is left completely in the dark with their expensive scouts and messy carriers. By the time a protoss player has salvaged enough mins to build up a fleet of scout/carriers any other race will have already taken a huge bite out of their base.
You might be thinking to yourselves "Why don't you just get a bunch of shuttles and drops ground units". Sorry, I tried that. When you're playing against people equal and higher than your skill level, chances are they will have build a few turrets, goliaths, or spires. These make short work of unprotected shuttles, and although it is possible to make the drop work, it still takes a lot more effort then it would for the other races.
So unless your Gosu (and even so) I see no way to effectively use Protoss against a good Terran or Zerg player on an Island map. If you have any ideas or strategies, please post them. They would be most welcome.
~Arden(WoF)~ Formerly known as ~Phoenix_Armada~
[right][snapback]397419[/snapback][/right]
The Zerg and Terran races have no problems squeezing out semi-cheap wraiths coupled with tanks in dropships. And Zerg can own the skies with muta/devourer. Protoss however, is left completely in the dark with their expensive scouts and messy carriers. By the time a protoss player has salvaged enough mins to build up a fleet of scout/carriers any other race will have already taken a huge bite out of their base.
You might be thinking to yourselves "Why don't you just get a bunch of shuttles and drops ground units". Sorry, I tried that. When you're playing against people equal and higher than your skill level, chances are they will have build a few turrets, goliaths, or spires. These make short work of unprotected shuttles, and although it is possible to make the drop work, it still takes a lot more effort then it would for the other races.
So unless your Gosu (and even so) I see no way to effectively use Protoss against a good Terran or Zerg player on an Island map. If you have any ideas or strategies, please post them. They would be most welcome.
~Arden(WoF)~ Formerly known as ~Phoenix_Armada~
[right][snapback]397419[/snapback][/right]
I semi agree with you. However, protoss has corsairs to defend against air, and dark templars to defend against drops. Cannons are also a great advantage to protoss players. Tech to a shuttle, cannon a base up, and let the money flow.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yenku on 2006-01-08 at 20:40:57
1. Terran has valks, zerg has devourers, and toss has corsairs. So its not like its an advantage.
2. DTs?? Why defend with DTs?
3. Each race can tech to drops and protect an isle...
Not one of the things you said gave toss an advantage.
2. DTs?? Why defend with DTs?
3. Each race can tech to drops and protect an isle...
Not one of the things you said gave toss an advantage.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Arden(WoF) on 2006-01-08 at 22:58:25
Thank you Yenku. I was going to post on that, but you have proved my point nicely
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2006-01-09 at 00:46:33
Would an extra gas node in a player's starting island help toss?
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(4)Mysterious%20Star.jpg
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(4)Mysterious%20Star.jpg
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Red2Blue on 2006-01-10 at 04:20:49
Im guessing so, then again... shuttles are 200 minerals and 0 gas... and cannons are the strongest independant defense units in the game that attack both air and ground. Not to difficult to zone some areas for your liking later.
Its anyone's game really. Especially in that map right there. Cause shuttles are so cheap, you can easily drop their main base. Do I hear a cannon push?
On some more notes: protoss actually gets advantage against zerg at the early game, because protoss is no longer prone to the fast as heck zergling rush that always comes really fast. This forces zerg to tech lair>transporting. Alot of gas and not really worthwhile in the midgame (where it usually gets ready and where you can possiblly pump out a few sairs)... Same with terran, their dropships cost gas! What the heck! With this advantage, toss does not necessarially have to focus on a fast early defense (like the classic zealots against zerglings for example).
Finally, who said it had to be a total air battle? With efficient dropping of ground units and stationary defenses, you can clean out just about any base.[/center][center]
Its anyone's game really. Especially in that map right there. Cause shuttles are so cheap, you can easily drop their main base. Do I hear a cannon push?
On some more notes: protoss actually gets advantage against zerg at the early game, because protoss is no longer prone to the fast as heck zergling rush that always comes really fast. This forces zerg to tech lair>transporting. Alot of gas and not really worthwhile in the midgame (where it usually gets ready and where you can possiblly pump out a few sairs)... Same with terran, their dropships cost gas! What the heck! With this advantage, toss does not necessarially have to focus on a fast early defense (like the classic zealots against zerglings for example).
Finally, who said it had to be a total air battle? With efficient dropping of ground units and stationary defenses, you can clean out just about any base.[/center][center]
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yenku on 2006-01-12 at 19:08:26
QUOTE
On some more notes: protoss actually gets advantage against zerg at the early game, because protoss is no longer prone to the fast as heck zergling rush that always comes really fast. This forces zerg to tech lair>transporting.
Yea cause thats REAL hard to defend against.QUOTE
Finally, who said it had to be a total air battle? With efficient dropping of ground units and stationary defenses, you can clean out just about any base.
Most air maps aren't played with all air units, unless your playing zerg.Report, edit, etc...Posted by Falcon_A on 2006-01-13 at 15:58:24
is it just me, or when's the last time you saw a zergling rush pulled off?
when's the last time you saw a zergling rush?
some idiots still send like 6 lings 3 minutes into the game, and i take a shiz on them.
and...the point is. shuttle = 2 goon. TWO. sure, you can get them faster, but you can't USE them as well as , say, zerg could. it'll take longer for zerg to get the ovie up, if you do nothing but tech to shuttles...but they'll have like 12 dropships as opposed to your 2 shizs carrying 4 goons.
when's the last time you saw a zergling rush?
some idiots still send like 6 lings 3 minutes into the game, and i take a shiz on them.
and...the point is. shuttle = 2 goon. TWO. sure, you can get them faster, but you can't USE them as well as , say, zerg could. it'll take longer for zerg to get the ovie up, if you do nothing but tech to shuttles...but they'll have like 12 dropships as opposed to your 2 shizs carrying 4 goons.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Red2Blue on 2006-01-13 at 16:37:37
QUOTE
Yea cause thats REAL hard to defend against.
Not hard... more like annoying...
Zlings like to run... yes they do... harass they do...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Arden(WoF) on 2006-01-14 at 12:24:47
QUOTE
Not hard... more like annoying...
Zlings like to run... yes they do... harass they do...
Zlings like to run... yes they do... harass they do...
Thank you Yoda.
But it is true, lings temporarily stop mining, force micro, and allow the zerg player to freely build his base while annoying the crap out of you...
QUOTE
Finally, who said it had to be a total air battle? With efficient dropping of ground units and stationary defenses, you can clean out just about any base.
I half agree with that. You're right, it can't be a total air battle, you just can't beat a respectable player with scouts/wraiths
. On the other hand, if you have total command over the air, your opponent can never drop you. He can just try to fight his way in, lose half his force due to his destroyed dropships and you'll wipe out his remaining 2 tanks with anything... (this goes for any other race as well). Zerg has the advantage there because of their ability to have 4000000 overlords. They can bring over empty ones to confuse you and that saves them from losing half their force. In the end, it becomes a stalemate and you pray that you win in point values...Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yenku on 2006-01-14 at 21:54:39
QUOTE
Yea cause thats REAL hard to defend against.
Note the farking sarcasm already...