Report, edit, etc...Posted by Phant on 2006-02-01 at 10:52:42
empty
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Cloud on 2006-02-01 at 12:45:03
its for learning experience, how do you think some of the shiziest map makers became good like MA or TT or Killer2001? they looked at other pplz triggers.(im not sure about that but its seems logical to me 
)
Anyway its not like they can save the triggers, if they're really determinded then they have to copy it manually. i dont see a problem with that.
) Anyway its not like they can save the triggers, if they're really determinded then they have to copy it manually. i dont see a problem with that.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Syphon on 2006-02-01 at 13:00:55
Trigger Viewer 2 is not a map unprotector. All you can do with it is see the triggers, not modify anything. People like to look at the triggers of good maps to get ideas, learn things, or for inspiration.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Zombie on 2006-02-01 at 13:02:39
QUOTE(Phant @ Feb 1 2006, 08:52 AM)
I'm Talking about the Trigger Viewer2 at This Topic.
Some people do a hard and good job to make protectors so that mapmakers who wanna protect theyr maps can do so.
But now someone is giving a tool to let go around all this protection.
I know it was always possible to hex view a map and edit it. But for that you needed to be skilled and skilled people also know how to make maps by themselves.
It is really no need that any 'noobish' wannabe mapmaker can just view all triggers and remake them without the need to search a forum or learn at unprotected maps.
I really do not understand what we need a Trigger Viewer of protected maps.
And I also dont understand why we need a map protection if we also support tools to go around it.
And even also I dont understand why someone should view triggers of a protected map when he didnt want to copy a part of the triggers or the concepts.
And even more I dont understand why someone who wanna let see 'newbs' his triggers should protect his map.
So for now i'm thinking if i should publish my maps over this community.
[right][snapback]418126[/snapback][/right]
Some people do a hard and good job to make protectors so that mapmakers who wanna protect theyr maps can do so.
But now someone is giving a tool to let go around all this protection.
I know it was always possible to hex view a map and edit it. But for that you needed to be skilled and skilled people also know how to make maps by themselves.
It is really no need that any 'noobish' wannabe mapmaker can just view all triggers and remake them without the need to search a forum or learn at unprotected maps.
I really do not understand what we need a Trigger Viewer of protected maps.
And I also dont understand why we need a map protection if we also support tools to go around it.
And even also I dont understand why someone should view triggers of a protected map when he didnt want to copy a part of the triggers or the concepts.
And even more I dont understand why someone who wanna let see 'newbs' his triggers should protect his map.
So for now i'm thinking if i should publish my maps over this community.
[right][snapback]418126[/snapback][/right]
I totally agree, People should half to spend time working on there maps, not get out of it easyly.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Gigins on 2006-02-01 at 13:21:30
I second or whatever that. Burn the Trigger viewer!!!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Forsaken on 2006-02-01 at 13:27:39
This should be closed before anything gets out of hand. There are/have been several threads dedicated to this. The argument has been settled, and there is no point in starting anything over again.
This kind of like the "God vs Athiests" threads that randomly appear, and have no winning side.
This kind of like the "God vs Athiests" threads that randomly appear, and have no winning side.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Voyager7456(MM) on 2006-02-01 at 15:24:15
Trigger Viewer is not an unprotector. If you're interested in the arguments for/against Trigger Viewer, look at these threads:
http://www.staredit.net/index.php?showtopic=24026
http://www.staredit.net/index.php?showtopic=15655
http://www.staredit.net/index.php?showtopic=24026
http://www.staredit.net/index.php?showtopic=15655
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Deathawk on 2006-02-01 at 15:27:39
You guys make it look like you can't just copy the triggers one by one manually.
I think it's a good program, and it should stay.
I think it's a good program, and it should stay.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Golden-Fist on 2006-02-01 at 15:45:06
QUOTE(Mp)Cloud @ Feb 1 2006, 12:45 PM)
its for learning experience, how do you think some of the shiziest map makers became good like MA or TT or Killer2001? they looked at other pplz triggers.(im not sure about that but its seems logical to me ) [right][snapback]418149[/snapback][/right]
) [right][snapback]418149[/snapback][/right]I'm not sure who TT is (Or I probably do just not by abreviation) but Killer learned from trial and error and so did MA. Map making DID have to START SOMEWHERE. It's not like when you got Starcraft it came good maps to look at.
QUOTE
I totally agree, People should half to spend time working on there maps, not get out of it easyly.
Yeah because the people in Map Making Assitance are so helpful when there's a problem.
"Fix it"
"How"
"Use death counters"
"How do I use death counters?"
<No Response>
Looking at how pros do things doesn't make it easier to do stuff. If I watch a bunch of replays of Melee maps it's not going to change how I suck at them. There's also something called "change" maybe if it was easier to make maps more people would do it, instead of everyone else looking at other people make good maps.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Deathawk on 2006-02-01 at 15:46:25
Actually, MA learned from looking at maps like.. uhh.. that zone control map.
Trial and error helped too.
Trial and error helped too.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by evolipel on 2006-02-01 at 15:57:23
You can't save the map once opened, nor can you copy any data. It's not an unprotector. Get a hold of yourself before you start a fire.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Deathawk on 2006-02-01 at 16:04:18
But, you CAN copy the triggers manually, to replicate the game.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Aikanaro on 2006-02-01 at 16:05:45
QUOTE(Phant @ Feb 1 2006, 10:52 AM)
I'm Talking about the Trigger Viewer2 at This Topic.
Some people do a hard and good job to make protectors so that mapmakers who wanna protect theyr maps can do so.
But now someone is giving a tool to let go around all this protection.
I know it was always possible to hex view a map and edit it. But for that you needed to be skilled and skilled people also know how to make maps by themselves.
It is really no need that any 'noobish' wannabe mapmaker can just view all triggers and remake them without the need to search a forum or learn at unprotected maps.
I really do not understand what we need a Trigger Viewer of protected maps.
And I also dont understand why we need a map protection if we also support tools to go around it.
And even also I dont understand why someone should view triggers of a protected map when he didnt want to copy a part of the triggers or the concepts.
And even more I dont understand why someone who wanna let see 'newbs' his triggers should protect his map.
So for now i'm thinking if i should publish my maps over this community.
[right][snapback]418126[/snapback][/right]
Some people do a hard and good job to make protectors so that mapmakers who wanna protect theyr maps can do so.
But now someone is giving a tool to let go around all this protection.
I know it was always possible to hex view a map and edit it. But for that you needed to be skilled and skilled people also know how to make maps by themselves.
It is really no need that any 'noobish' wannabe mapmaker can just view all triggers and remake them without the need to search a forum or learn at unprotected maps.
I really do not understand what we need a Trigger Viewer of protected maps.
And I also dont understand why we need a map protection if we also support tools to go around it.
And even also I dont understand why someone should view triggers of a protected map when he didnt want to copy a part of the triggers or the concepts.
And even more I dont understand why someone who wanna let see 'newbs' his triggers should protect his map.
So for now i'm thinking if i should publish my maps over this community.
[right][snapback]418126[/snapback][/right]
I know when I started mapmaking, I knew nothing. I wanted to create cool maps. Atleast, I thought I had good ideas. Though, I didn't know how to do a ton of things. I don't mapmake anymore. Though, I always searched for maps that were not protected and tryed learning from it. I don't think its "copying". Its more like sharing experience and knowledge between other people in order to create more interesting and a more variety of maps. I for one, support this Trigger viewer.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Infested-Jerk on 2006-02-01 at 16:07:28
TT=Tuxedo Templar?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Oo.Vic.oO on 2006-02-01 at 16:31:05
all it does is let u see the triggers... so wat if u actually copy it down manually? there's probably that trigger in the tutorial. It's not like u can steal the map or anything.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by M_s4 on 2006-02-01 at 16:49:16
If someone is skilled, they could easily remake the map in less time than it took the original creator to make. Like I could spend 3 days making a map, but an expert comes and finishes it 2. So map protectors only deters and postpones map stealers (BY A LOT). But I disagree with triggerviewer because sometimes it is not a map that is wanted to be original, but like a signature technique that you will only know (at least for awhile) to give your "style" on a map.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by PCFredZ on 2006-02-01 at 16:49:59
The purpose of unprotectors is to steal maps. You can't do that with Trigger Viewer.
If you made a map with really good triggers and don't want to tell anyone else how you did it, you just have problems.
If you made a map with really good triggers and don't want to tell anyone else how you did it, you just have problems.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by LegacyWeapon on 2006-02-01 at 17:39:11
QUOTE(PCFredZ @ Feb 1 2006, 04:49 PM)
The purpose of unprotectors is to steal maps. You can't do that with Trigger Viewer.
If you made a map with really good triggers and don't want to tell anyone else how you did it, you just have problems.
[right][snapback]418289[/snapback][/right]
People protect their maps not only to prevent stealing. However, stealing is one of the larger issues when it comes to maps and their protection.If you made a map with really good triggers and don't want to tell anyone else how you did it, you just have problems.
[right][snapback]418289[/snapback][/right]
I find it difficult to understand how people are learning from this anyways. Finding your own method helps you learn a lot more than copying someone else's. Originally, I tried to make the Tutorial Database somewhere people could learn how to make certain things. Eventually with the flood of complaints and not understanding, I just made step-by-step tutorials on how to make things. This new style of learning how to make maps is, at least in my opinion, not the best way to learn.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Syphon on 2006-02-01 at 18:35:47
Why don't you undertsand that is has no output?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mini Moose 2707 on 2006-02-01 at 18:37:34
I am against this, but I took a vote and the majority wants it.
What it boils down to is a question of "Is protection bypassing considered unprotection?".
Now, I don't see why people can't learn to make maps the same we me, Bolt, MA, and everyone else did. Maybe there are unique trigger elements in my maps that I don't want people to use. The "how did he do that" that makes a Moose map a Moose map... that shouldn't be tampered with, yet it is.
Also, what amuses me is, a lot of the people who favor it aren't the ones releasing the major and best maps anyway. Looks like the program is really helping you guys out, eh?
What it boils down to is a question of "Is protection bypassing considered unprotection?".
Now, I don't see why people can't learn to make maps the same we me, Bolt, MA, and everyone else did. Maybe there are unique trigger elements in my maps that I don't want people to use. The "how did he do that" that makes a Moose map a Moose map... that shouldn't be tampered with, yet it is.
Also, what amuses me is, a lot of the people who favor it aren't the ones releasing the major and best maps anyway. Looks like the program is really helping you guys out, eh?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Cloud on 2006-02-01 at 18:40:52
QUOTE(Mini Moose 2707 @ Feb 1 2006, 11:37 PM)
I am against this, but I took a vote and the majority wants it.
What it boils down to is a question of "Is protection bypassing considered unprotection?".
Now, I don't see why people can't learn to make maps the same we me, Bolt, MA, and everyone else did. Maybe there are unique trigger elements in my maps that I don't want people to use. The "how did he do that" that makes a Moose map a Moose map... that shouldn't be tampered with, yet it is.
Also, what amuses me is, a lot of the people who favor it aren't the ones releasing the major and best maps anyway. Looks like the program is really helping you guys out, eh?
[right][snapback]418401[/snapback][/right]
What it boils down to is a question of "Is protection bypassing considered unprotection?".
Now, I don't see why people can't learn to make maps the same we me, Bolt, MA, and everyone else did. Maybe there are unique trigger elements in my maps that I don't want people to use. The "how did he do that" that makes a Moose map a Moose map... that shouldn't be tampered with, yet it is.
Also, what amuses me is, a lot of the people who favor it aren't the ones releasing the major and best maps anyway. Looks like the program is really helping you guys out, eh?
[right][snapback]418401[/snapback][/right]
hey i agree with you accept for 1 thing. your not going to be playing starcraft forever, no1 is. how are the new map makers gonna learn how to make maps as good as ppl like MA if they dont know how to, and cant figure out how to. thats whats gonna happen to sc, its gonna get worse becuz the really good map makers all retire and the new map makers have no clue how to make maps.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MindArchon on 2006-02-01 at 18:42:51
This program helps to get rid of elitism. It helps to bridge the gap between "I dont know how to make a map" and "I made this map, every idea in it should be exclusive to me".
Most ideas are found in the tutorial database anyway. You can think of Trigger Viewer as an extension to the tutorials database, thats all it is really.
Most ideas are found in the tutorial database anyway. You can think of Trigger Viewer as an extension to the tutorials database, thats all it is really.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by LegacyWeapon on 2006-02-01 at 18:44:34
QUOTE(MindArchon @ Feb 1 2006, 06:42 PM)
Most ideas are found in the tutorial database anyway. You can think of Trigger Viewer as an extension to the tutorials database, thats all it is really.
[right][snapback]418410[/snapback][/right]
You mean a step-by-step way to copy a triggering style?[right][snapback]418410[/snapback][/right]
Report, edit, etc...Posted by PCFredZ on 2006-02-01 at 18:49:37
If it wasn't for opening up the Blizzard original UMS maps, I would never have known how to do Mission Briefings. 
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MindArchon on 2006-02-01 at 18:50:24
QUOTE(LegacyWeapon @ Feb 1 2006, 04:44 PM)
You mean a step-by-step way to copy a triggering style?
[right][snapback]418416[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]418416[/snapback][/right]
Almost every system in a map is tailored to a maps specifics. Its literally almost impossible to copy triggers directly from one map to another and expect it to magically work. You have to grasp what the trigger is doing, and then recreate the entire system to your own map. It is not directly copying anything.