Report, edit, etc...Posted by thien on 2006-04-18 at 13:36:22
Regardless of the "Editor's" attempts to limit the importance of this... it sure looks to me like it puts to bed the "no connection between Saddam and bin Laden" meme. Or at the very least has it heading up the stairs in it's jammies with a big glass of hot milk.
I also expect that there will be a number of further documents with increasingly complete details of this relationship coming out between now and, oh, October sometime...
Of course, Hussein's intentional attempts to deceive and ultimate expulsion of the UN inspectors, by itself, was and always has been sufficient grounds for military action by the US under the terms of the treaty Saddam signed with the US (not the UN) to end the first Gulf War. As were a number of other actions on his part.
But those who have endlessly demanded that Bush has to demonstrate a connection between Saddam and bin Laden in order to legitimize the invasion, look to be getting very close to having their 'wishes' granted.
I also expect that there will be a number of further documents with increasingly complete details of this relationship coming out between now and, oh, October sometime...
QUOTE
Iraq Archive Document Describes Bin Laden Meeting
U.S. Government Releases Papers From Saddam's Reign
March 22, 2006 — - Following are the ABC News Investigative Unit's summaries of five documents from Saddam Hussein's government, which have been released by the U.S. government.
The documents discuss Osama bin Laden, weapons of mass destruction, al Qaeda and more.
The full documents can be found on the U.S. Army Foreign Military Studies Office Web site: http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/products-docex.htm.
Note: Document titles were added by ABC News.
"Osama Bin Laden Contact With Iraq"
A newly released pre-war Iraqi document indicates that an official representative of Saddam Hussein's government met with Osama bin Laden in Sudan on February 19, 1995 after approval by Saddam Hussein. Bin Laden asked that Iraq broadcast the lectures of Suleiman al Ouda, a radical Saudi preacher, and suggested "carrying out joint operations against foreign forces" in Saudi Arabia. According to the document, Saddam's presidency was informed of the details of the meeting on March 4, 1995 and Saddam agreed to dedicate a program for them on the radio. The document states that further "development of the relationship and cooperation between the two parties to be left according to what's open (in the future) based on dialogue and agreement on other ways of cooperation." The Sudanese were informed about the agreement to dedicate the program on the radio.
The report then states that "Saudi opposition figure" bin Laden had to leave Sudan in July 1996 after it was accused of harboring terrorists. It says information indicated he was in Afghanistan. "The relationship with him is still through the Sudanese. We're currently working on activating this relationship through a new channel in light of his current location," it states.
(Editor's Note: This document is handwritten and has no official seal. Although contacts between bin Laden and the Iraqis have been reported in the 9/11 Commission report and elsewhere, (e.g. the 9/11 report states "Bin Ladn himself met with a senior Iraqi intelligence officer in Khartoum in late 1994 or early 1995) this document indicates the contacts were approved personally by Saddam Hussein.
It also indicates the discussions were substantive, in particular that bin Laden was proposing an operational relationship, and that the Iraqis were, at a minimum, interested in exploring a potential relationship and prepared to show good faith by broadcasting the speeches of al Ouda, the radical cleric who was also a bin Laden mentor.
The document does not establish that the two parties did in fact enter into an operational relationship. Given that the document claims bin Laden was proposing to the Iraqis that they conduct "joint operations against foreign forces" in Saudi Arabia, it is interesting to note that eight months after the meeting -- on November 13, 1995 -- terrorists attacked Saudi National Guard Headquarters in Riyadh, killing 5 U.S. military advisors. The militants later confessed on Saudi TV to having been trained by Osama bin Laden.)
"Osama bin Laden and the Taliban"
Document dated Sept. 15, 2001
An Iraqi intelligence service document saying that their Afghani informant, who's only identified by a number, told them that the Afghani Consul Ahmed Dahastani claimed the following in front of him:
That OBL and the Taliban are in contact with Iraq and that a group of Taliban and bin Laden group members visited Iraq.
That the U.S. has proof the Iraqi government and "bin Laden's group" agreed to cooperate to attack targets inside America.
That in case the Taliban and bin Laden's group turn out to be involved in "these destructive operations," the U.S. may strike Iraq and Afghanistan.
That the Afghani consul heard about the issue of Iraq's relationship with "bin Laden's group" while he was in Iran.
At the end, the writer recommends informing "the committee of intentions" about the above-mentioned items. The signature on the document is unclear.
(Editor's Note: The controversial claim that Osama bin Laden was cooperating with Saddam Hussein is an ongoing matter of intense debate. While the assertions contained in this document clearly support the claim, the sourcing is questionable -- i.e. an unnamed Afghan "informant" reporting on a conversation with another Afghan "consul." The date of the document -- four days after 9/11 -- is worth noting but without further corroboration, this document is of limited evidentiary value.)
"Election Campaign Laws in France"
Documents dated July-August 1999
Correspondence regarding election campaigns in France. This includes a document from the Iraqi intelligence service classified as "secret," ordering the translation of important parts of a 1997 report about campaign financing laws in France. It also includes a document from the foreign minister's office indicating the report was attached. The attached translated report included very detailed information about all the regulations regarding financing of election campaigns in France. Translation was done by someone called "Salam Abdul Karim Mohammed."
(Editor's Note: This is an intriguing document which suggests Saddam Hussein's regime had a strong interest in the mechanics and legalities of financial contributions to French politicians. Several former French politicians are implicated in receiving oil vouchers from Iraq under the U.N. Oil for Food program.)
"Hiding Docs from the U.N. Team"
Document dated March 23, 1997
A letter from the Iraqi intelligence service to directors and managers advising them to follow certain procedures in case of a search by the U.N. team, including:
Removing correspondence with the atomic energy and military industry departments concerning the prohibited weapons (proposals, research, studies, catalogs, etc.).
Removing prohibited materials and equipment, including documents and catalogs and making sure to clear labs and storages of any traces of chemical or biological materials that were previously used or stored.
Doing so through a committee which will decide whether to destroy the documents.
Removing files from computers.
The letter also advises them on how they should answer questions by U.N. team members. It says the intelligence service should be informed within one week about the progress made in discarding the documents.
(Editor's Note: This document is consistent with the Report of the Special Advisor to the Director of Central Intelligence, which described a pattern of deception and concealment on the part of Saddam Hussein's government towards the U.N. inspectors in the mid to late 90's. Hussein halted all cooperation with those inspectors and expelled them in October 1998.)
"Al Qaeda Presence in Iraq"
Document dated August 2002
A number of correspondences to check rumors that some members of al Qaeda organization have entered Iraq. Three letters say this information cannot be confirmed. The letter on page seven, however, says that information coming from "a trustworthy source" indicates that subjects who are interested in dealing with al Qaeda are in Iraq and have several passports.
The letter seems to be coming from or going to Trebil, a town on the Iraqi-Jordanian border. Follow up on the presence of those subjects is ordered, as well as comparison of their pictures with those of Jordanian subjects living in Iraq. (This may be referring to pictures of Abu Musaab al Zarqawi and another man on pages 4-6) The letter also says tourist areas, including hotels and rented apartments, should be searched. (Editor's note: This document indicates that the Iraqis were aware of and interested in reports that members of al Qaeda were present in Iraq in 2002. The document does not support allegations that Iraq was colluding with al Qaeda.)
U.S. Government Releases Papers From Saddam's Reign
March 22, 2006 — - Following are the ABC News Investigative Unit's summaries of five documents from Saddam Hussein's government, which have been released by the U.S. government.
The documents discuss Osama bin Laden, weapons of mass destruction, al Qaeda and more.
The full documents can be found on the U.S. Army Foreign Military Studies Office Web site: http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/products-docex.htm.
Note: Document titles were added by ABC News.
"Osama Bin Laden Contact With Iraq"
A newly released pre-war Iraqi document indicates that an official representative of Saddam Hussein's government met with Osama bin Laden in Sudan on February 19, 1995 after approval by Saddam Hussein. Bin Laden asked that Iraq broadcast the lectures of Suleiman al Ouda, a radical Saudi preacher, and suggested "carrying out joint operations against foreign forces" in Saudi Arabia. According to the document, Saddam's presidency was informed of the details of the meeting on March 4, 1995 and Saddam agreed to dedicate a program for them on the radio. The document states that further "development of the relationship and cooperation between the two parties to be left according to what's open (in the future) based on dialogue and agreement on other ways of cooperation." The Sudanese were informed about the agreement to dedicate the program on the radio.
The report then states that "Saudi opposition figure" bin Laden had to leave Sudan in July 1996 after it was accused of harboring terrorists. It says information indicated he was in Afghanistan. "The relationship with him is still through the Sudanese. We're currently working on activating this relationship through a new channel in light of his current location," it states.
(Editor's Note: This document is handwritten and has no official seal. Although contacts between bin Laden and the Iraqis have been reported in the 9/11 Commission report and elsewhere, (e.g. the 9/11 report states "Bin Ladn himself met with a senior Iraqi intelligence officer in Khartoum in late 1994 or early 1995) this document indicates the contacts were approved personally by Saddam Hussein.
It also indicates the discussions were substantive, in particular that bin Laden was proposing an operational relationship, and that the Iraqis were, at a minimum, interested in exploring a potential relationship and prepared to show good faith by broadcasting the speeches of al Ouda, the radical cleric who was also a bin Laden mentor.
The document does not establish that the two parties did in fact enter into an operational relationship. Given that the document claims bin Laden was proposing to the Iraqis that they conduct "joint operations against foreign forces" in Saudi Arabia, it is interesting to note that eight months after the meeting -- on November 13, 1995 -- terrorists attacked Saudi National Guard Headquarters in Riyadh, killing 5 U.S. military advisors. The militants later confessed on Saudi TV to having been trained by Osama bin Laden.)
"Osama bin Laden and the Taliban"
Document dated Sept. 15, 2001
An Iraqi intelligence service document saying that their Afghani informant, who's only identified by a number, told them that the Afghani Consul Ahmed Dahastani claimed the following in front of him:
That OBL and the Taliban are in contact with Iraq and that a group of Taliban and bin Laden group members visited Iraq.
That the U.S. has proof the Iraqi government and "bin Laden's group" agreed to cooperate to attack targets inside America.
That in case the Taliban and bin Laden's group turn out to be involved in "these destructive operations," the U.S. may strike Iraq and Afghanistan.
That the Afghani consul heard about the issue of Iraq's relationship with "bin Laden's group" while he was in Iran.
At the end, the writer recommends informing "the committee of intentions" about the above-mentioned items. The signature on the document is unclear.
(Editor's Note: The controversial claim that Osama bin Laden was cooperating with Saddam Hussein is an ongoing matter of intense debate. While the assertions contained in this document clearly support the claim, the sourcing is questionable -- i.e. an unnamed Afghan "informant" reporting on a conversation with another Afghan "consul." The date of the document -- four days after 9/11 -- is worth noting but without further corroboration, this document is of limited evidentiary value.)
"Election Campaign Laws in France"
Documents dated July-August 1999
Correspondence regarding election campaigns in France. This includes a document from the Iraqi intelligence service classified as "secret," ordering the translation of important parts of a 1997 report about campaign financing laws in France. It also includes a document from the foreign minister's office indicating the report was attached. The attached translated report included very detailed information about all the regulations regarding financing of election campaigns in France. Translation was done by someone called "Salam Abdul Karim Mohammed."
(Editor's Note: This is an intriguing document which suggests Saddam Hussein's regime had a strong interest in the mechanics and legalities of financial contributions to French politicians. Several former French politicians are implicated in receiving oil vouchers from Iraq under the U.N. Oil for Food program.)
"Hiding Docs from the U.N. Team"
Document dated March 23, 1997
A letter from the Iraqi intelligence service to directors and managers advising them to follow certain procedures in case of a search by the U.N. team, including:
Removing correspondence with the atomic energy and military industry departments concerning the prohibited weapons (proposals, research, studies, catalogs, etc.).
Removing prohibited materials and equipment, including documents and catalogs and making sure to clear labs and storages of any traces of chemical or biological materials that were previously used or stored.
Doing so through a committee which will decide whether to destroy the documents.
Removing files from computers.
The letter also advises them on how they should answer questions by U.N. team members. It says the intelligence service should be informed within one week about the progress made in discarding the documents.
(Editor's Note: This document is consistent with the Report of the Special Advisor to the Director of Central Intelligence, which described a pattern of deception and concealment on the part of Saddam Hussein's government towards the U.N. inspectors in the mid to late 90's. Hussein halted all cooperation with those inspectors and expelled them in October 1998.)
"Al Qaeda Presence in Iraq"
Document dated August 2002
A number of correspondences to check rumors that some members of al Qaeda organization have entered Iraq. Three letters say this information cannot be confirmed. The letter on page seven, however, says that information coming from "a trustworthy source" indicates that subjects who are interested in dealing with al Qaeda are in Iraq and have several passports.
The letter seems to be coming from or going to Trebil, a town on the Iraqi-Jordanian border. Follow up on the presence of those subjects is ordered, as well as comparison of their pictures with those of Jordanian subjects living in Iraq. (This may be referring to pictures of Abu Musaab al Zarqawi and another man on pages 4-6) The letter also says tourist areas, including hotels and rented apartments, should be searched. (Editor's note: This document indicates that the Iraqis were aware of and interested in reports that members of al Qaeda were present in Iraq in 2002. The document does not support allegations that Iraq was colluding with al Qaeda.)
Of course, Hussein's intentional attempts to deceive and ultimate expulsion of the UN inspectors, by itself, was and always has been sufficient grounds for military action by the US under the terms of the treaty Saddam signed with the US (not the UN) to end the first Gulf War. As were a number of other actions on his part.
But those who have endlessly demanded that Bush has to demonstrate a connection between Saddam and bin Laden in order to legitimize the invasion, look to be getting very close to having their 'wishes' granted.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Vibrator on 2006-04-18 at 15:29:38
You know who else had negotiations with Binladen? The US, they armed him and gave him the capabilities to become a terrorist.
You know who else had negotiations with Saddam? The US, they pretty much placed him in power there.
Hmm, I wonder who the real culprit is here.
You know who else had negotiations with Saddam? The US, they pretty much placed him in power there.
Hmm, I wonder who the real culprit is here.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kellodood on 2006-04-18 at 15:31:55
QUOTE(thien @ Apr 18 2006, 10:36 AM)
Regardless of the "Editor's" attempts to limit the importance of this... it sure looks to me like it puts to bed the "no connection between Saddam and bin Laden" meme. Or at the very least has it heading up the stairs in it's jammies with a big glass of hot milk.
I also expect that there will be a number of further documents with increasingly complete details of this relationship coming out between now and, oh, October sometime...
Of course, Hussein's intentional attempts to deceive and ultimate expulsion of the UN inspectors, by itself, was and always has been sufficient grounds for military action by the US under the terms of the treaty Saddam signed with the US (not the UN) to end the first Gulf War. As were a number of other actions on his part.
But those who have endlessly demanded that Bush has to demonstrate a connection between Saddam and bin Laden in order to legitimize the invasion, look to be getting very close to having their 'wishes' granted.
[right][snapback]467944[/snapback][/right]
I also expect that there will be a number of further documents with increasingly complete details of this relationship coming out between now and, oh, October sometime...
Of course, Hussein's intentional attempts to deceive and ultimate expulsion of the UN inspectors, by itself, was and always has been sufficient grounds for military action by the US under the terms of the treaty Saddam signed with the US (not the UN) to end the first Gulf War. As were a number of other actions on his part.
But those who have endlessly demanded that Bush has to demonstrate a connection between Saddam and bin Laden in order to legitimize the invasion, look to be getting very close to having their 'wishes' granted.
[right][snapback]467944[/snapback][/right]
You do realise, that information can be twisted and skewed, to make people happy, don't you?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Demaris on 2006-04-19 at 01:57:45
QUOTE(Kellimus @ Apr 18 2006, 02:31 PM)
You do realise, that information can be twisted and skewed, to make people happy, don't you?
[right][snapback]468003[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]468003[/snapback][/right]
What? That's nonsense. That would be saying that news corporations have...... motives and agendas?
[/SARCASM]
Report, edit, etc...Posted by JaFF on 2006-04-19 at 07:36:45
kellimus is right here. information allmost allways gets changed when passing masses of people/media.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by TheDaddy0420 on 2006-04-19 at 20:38:21
QUOTE(Vibrator @ Apr 18 2006, 11:29 AM)
You know who else had negotiations with Binladen? The US, they armed him and gave him the capabilities to become a terrorist.
[right][snapback]468002[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]468002[/snapback][/right]
We did it to stop the Soviets from taking over Aphganistan, situation justified.
QUOTE(Jammed @ Apr 19 2006, 03:36 AM)
kellimus is right here. information allmost allways gets changed when passing masses of people/media.
[right][snapback]468438[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]468438[/snapback][/right]
Example?
Thats a bold statement
Report, edit, etc...Posted by CheeZe on 2006-04-19 at 21:46:55
QUOTE
Thats a bold statement
No it's not. Ever played the game "telephone"?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by TheDaddy0420 on 2006-04-19 at 23:31:11
QUOTE(CheeZe @ Apr 19 2006, 05:46 PM)
No it's not. Ever played the game "telephone"?
[right][snapback]468856[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]468856[/snapback][/right]
Yes it is, simply by the word "Always"
Report, edit, etc...Posted by CheeZe on 2006-04-19 at 23:45:37
"Almost always". 
Report, edit, etc...Posted by TheDaddy0420 on 2006-04-25 at 19:17:34
Well I still haven't got an example. It seems like Kellimus/Euro don't want to believe that Saddam could/did have connections with Al Quada.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kellodood on 2006-04-25 at 19:40:35
Why are you putting words in my mouth? I'm not dissregarding the possibility.
And plus: We had/have connections to Al Queda. Look at who we trained in the 80's.
Bin Laden ring a bell?
And plus: We had/have connections to Al Queda. Look at who we trained in the 80's.
Bin Laden ring a bell?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Dr.Shotgun on 2006-04-28 at 16:03:39
I would beleive this, but the 9/11 Comission report, which was bipartian, diagrees with it, plus Saddam was a secular ruler, which means that a religious fundamentalist like Bin Laden would not be interested in allying with him/
Report, edit, etc...Posted by TheDaddy0420 on 2006-04-28 at 20:33:36
QUOTE(Kellimus @ Apr 25 2006, 03:40 PM)
Why are you putting words in my mouth? I'm not dissregarding the possibility.
And plus: We had/have connections to Al Queda. Look at who we trained in the 80's.
Bin Laden ring a bell?
[right][snapback]472750[/snapback][/right]
And plus: We had/have connections to Al Queda. Look at who we trained in the 80's.
Bin Laden ring a bell?
[right][snapback]472750[/snapback][/right]
To stop USSR imperialism in the region.
man...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kellodood on 2006-04-28 at 21:30:57
So that justifies the fact that we trained terrorists, eh Chris?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by TheDaddy0420 on 2006-04-28 at 23:24:05
QUOTE(Kellimus @ Apr 28 2006, 05:30 PM)
So that justifies the fact that we trained terrorists, eh Chris?
[right][snapback]474966[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]474966[/snapback][/right]
Were they terrorists then Kellimus?
Did we know that some were going to turn into terrorists?
Isn't the enemy of my enemy my friend?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kellodood on 2006-04-29 at 04:05:35
Technically, yes. They were terrorising the Russians.
Just face it. Everything you think you know is so twisted, you're confused.
Just face it. Everything you think you know is so twisted, you're confused.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by TheDaddy0420 on 2006-04-29 at 04:20:33
and you won't admit the fact that NO ONE, no one at that time knew 9/11 was going to happen or that these jihadists were going to turn on us.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kellodood on 2006-04-29 at 04:52:39
Now how do you know? Putting words in my mouth again eh?
I can accept the fact that they didn't know they would do that to us (To bad it wasn't Bin Ladin in the first place), but you cannot seem to accept the fact that Bin Ladin could have been set up.
I can accept the fact that they didn't know they would do that to us (To bad it wasn't Bin Ladin in the first place), but you cannot seem to accept the fact that Bin Ladin could have been set up.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by CaptainWill on 2006-04-29 at 07:22:28
We're starting to go around in circles again, I see.
I think you two should probably agree to disagree, if you see what I mean. Your arguments are rarely, if ever, productive.
I think you two should probably agree to disagree, if you see what I mean. Your arguments are rarely, if ever, productive.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by TheDaddy0420 on 2006-04-29 at 10:43:37
QUOTE(CaptainWill @ Apr 29 2006, 03:22 AM)
We're starting to go around in circles again, I see.
I think you two should probably agree to disagree, if you see what I mean. Your arguments are rarely, if ever, productive.
[right][snapback]475273[/snapback][/right]
I think you two should probably agree to disagree, if you see what I mean. Your arguments are rarely, if ever, productive.
[right][snapback]475273[/snapback][/right]
Agreed. I just think those actions were justified, no one knew these people would eventually turn on us. We wanted to stop USSR imperialism and we got the job done.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by JaFF on 2006-04-29 at 11:26:46
QUOTE(TheDaddy0420 @ Apr 20 2006, 03:37 AM)
Example?
Thats a bold statement
[right][snapback]468806[/snapback][/right]
Thats a bold statement
[right][snapback]468806[/snapback][/right]
rumors are the best example. someone said "that king had 100 archers in his army". to exaggerate it someone else told that he has 1000 archers. & it goes on & on untill there are not archers in his army but catapults.
i am sorry for being a bit late with my reply, didn't look at this topic after my first post
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kashmir on 2006-04-29 at 16:16:32
QUOTE
Were they terrorists then Kellimus?
Did we know that some were going to turn into terrorists?
Isn't the enemy of my enemy my friend?
Did we know that some were going to turn into terrorists?
Isn't the enemy of my enemy my friend?
actually yes. Do you think in order for them to be terrorists they had to attack the US? If so your very misguided and blind. They incited terror and havoc among the soviets. So they were in fact terrorists. So what, now all of a sudden they are terrorists because they attack us?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Wilhelm on 2006-04-30 at 12:56:09
Everyone knows the only center of activity in the world is the US, which of course runs everything and is the most important ever man, omg, USA forvever!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kellodood on 2006-04-30 at 18:21:02
I think you forgot the [/endconservative] tag