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Ok, I've been playing SC since Brood war, but never done any modding before. I'm into melee map making though so I figured a terrain mod would be perfect =P. But I really don't know where to start. I downloaded tile edit, but can't figure out how to extract the tilesets from WinMPQ (I think I have to do that in order to get the tilesets, not sure though). Also I've googled around a bit, but dosen't seem like many people like to do terrain mods (found a bit of info, but coulden't find one single terrain mod =P).

Ok so a few Problems/Questions...

First does anyone have a link to a good tutorial for tileedit, including extracting the tilesets, or a link to a beter program (seems like tile edit is the only one though). And don't tell me to google it becuase I have, and haven't been able to find anything that didn't seem to be written for somebody who already knows what they are doing.

Second I want to combine alot of the tilesets into 1 (probably use useless instalation as a base, so then other maps + super cool tile set ones will work). Any reasons to not do this (I think it would be better to just clear out everything in instalation, so then I can organize it better than just filling in the blank spots.

I've read a few things about the color pallete, but coulden't get a file for the palete so haven't been able to experiment with it. Can anyone give me more info on the pallete, also there could be a much better option than using instalation depending on the color pallete, but being able to run tile edited maps, and regular maps would be an advantage, and if I do that I could probably even get some people to use it =P. Also is it possible to edit the colors in the color pallete wihtout hardcoding? with simple hardcoding (I realize no hard coding is simple, but if it's maybe something where someone has already found where it is, or something that I could find with hours of searching =P.)

Also I want to make 3 buildable levels, I believe this is possible since many tilesets already have 3 levels, but the third isn't buildable (snow, high snow, high outpost). Does the tileset have anything to do with the number of levels avaliable? Is it possible to get more than 3 levels? (I don't really care to much about more than 3 though, as that would be using up a ton of tiles just for something very trivial, a good amount of low ground and high ground tiles + a small number of 3rd level ones would be just fine IMO).

Doodads? I asume these are editable just haven't figured out how yet, not really a big worry right now. If I get the tiles done first then I can work on doodads, also some will be built into the tileset (like bridges, cliff things, etc...).

A huge worry of mine is room in the tileset, I'm asuming that when I open up the terrain pallete in SCMDraft that all the black squares are unique, and that each can be edited. I'm really hoping there are more than that though, if there aren't I still think that I can manage placing everything I want in the space avaliable (but it will be dificult, and I'll have to make some tough cuts). Are there more blank squares then the terrain pallete would have me beleive? Does further modding/simple hardcoding give me a chance to add in more blank tiles?

If there are less tiles then SCMDraft terrain pallete would have me beleive then this project might be scrapped really fast. I really want to make this a decent mod, adding in a few simple things and then having to stop will just make it so I never finish =P. If I am limited to the amount that the terrain pallete would have me believe I don't have to add EVERY tileset, I can cut stuff that isn't used to much like rocky ground and mud to less tiles (but still make it enough so that all mud/rocky ground dosen't look the same =P, I can worry more about this later).

And lastly I believe that I would have to make my own editor to be able to build maps with this. Not a big deal right now though, if I actualy got this project to the point where I would need to build an ediotr I would be happy to do it myself (I know C# and C++ and I think I have an understanding on how map files are edited/saved, and if not I can learn).


Also some things that I plan to add...

Backwards ramps is the biggest one, this is the whole reason I got this idea, the current ramps suck. Also more ramp options like a bridge/ramp combination, wide/narrow/long/short ramps. Eliminating complicated terrain work.

Some (not much) Square terrain, cliffs will be the big one, many many times as a map maker things would have just been simplier if I could just make a straight horrizontal/vertical pathway instead of having to do it all zig zag =P. But I don't plan on putting to much into this becuase starcraft was meant for isometric, and it looks best that way.

More blends, for example snow could go striaght into grass, or straight into dirt, or staright to twilight (always wanted to have snow on twilight =P).

A few things with minerals. One of the biggest that I'm hoping that I can do is make a mineral walls that can't be passed through unless they are mined (I realize this can be done with just stacking minerals, but it looks bad that way). Also I hope to make a few smaller patches so that cleaner mineral fields can be made. I realize that this isn't part of the terrain, but just something I want to do, don't know if it is possible to add extra patches though (is it possible to take an unused unit and turn it into a mineral patch?). Depending on how many extra I'll be able to add I could also add colors, other designs, etc...




Sorry for the long post, hopefully someone takes the time to read it =P. I am hopeing that I can actualy get this done, maybe get a few people using it, hell could even get a few people to make maps for it =P (Thinking ahead of myself though ). Any other ideas for things to add for terrain would be great, the main thing I'm focusing on is being able to do new things with map making. Any other ideas are welcome.

Also I'll be doing my own drawings for alot of these in photoshop using the pen tool (Still trying to master it though =P).

Go into StarDat/BrooDat.mpq and extract the *.cv5, *.vf4, *.vr4, *.vx4, and *.wpe files.

TileEdit, you just go to File > Open and select the cv5 file. Look through the list till you find the tiles you want to edit.

Export: Click Export Group and it will save a .bmp of the tiles.

Import: Click Import Group and select the edited .bmp of tiles. Save the cv5 under the same name and create an MPQ. Add the files you extracted with the prefix tileset\. Then run the mod with MPQDraft.

There's no problems with combining the tilesets, per se, but I do not think you can add any more entries so you probably won't be able to fit them all in.

I don't believe palettes have anything hardcoded. (Except for the converting from yellow to gray for icons.) I don't know if each tileset has its own palette or whatever, but I do know RetroGRP comes with a terrain palette.

Buildable levels... I really have no idea. It might have something to do with one of the unknowns or with the "Ground height" attribute.

Doodads are the last groups in the tileset. They are edited just like regular tiles.

As I said, I don't think you can add any more entries. SCMDraft probably shows all of the tiles there are.

I do not know how SCMDraft and StarForge read the tiles, but I think they may read them from the MPQs in the Starcraft directory.

Ok so I got tile edit working. I've got 24,500 tiles to work with, seems like it should be enough but I might have to do some cutting corners to get everything I want in. Going to take a long time though to get this all in..... almost 25k tiles to edit and chop up in photoshop =P.

Hopefully it'll all be worth it =P.

I was never much into tileset editing, but I just want to ask: is TileEdit a good tool or could it be improved? If it still leaves to be desired, then I may consider working on a tile-manipulating program in the future.

May make tile-editing more popular! That'd be good seeing the only thing mod's never ever seem to have (or have but s bad) is changed terrain.

It's so hard though, good luck with it!

I would love you for the rest of my life. TileEdit is a buggy, hack of a program. It's poorly labeled and offers only simplistic functionality. For one thing I greatly doubt it's ability to even change some of the tile values let alone do them correctly. It seems pretty good at exporting/importing new tilesets, but even that can be buggy.

One problem is we need deeper research into the workings of tilesets, but my attempts at that were greatly thwarted due to tiledit being more or less crap, and my inability to deceipher what the hell is in the different tileset files.

Completely recoding the program might not be needed... The source code is available at SMEmpire. The lables won't become known just because it's re-written from scratch, only more research will help in that, obviously enough :P

If dddata.bin-editing could be incoperated into it smoothly, it would be truely awesome, but perhaps an external editor is needed for it...

Tile edit definatly leaves much to be desired. It is buggy, there are many unknowns, and it is really only usefull when editing a small amount of tiles due to the fact that you can't mass export/import tilesets. Making having to do this project I'm talking about impossible (have to extract all the groups for all the tilesets, then after editing have to move in 1,500 groups). So I was planning to write something basic that would just extract/import files into the CV5, but no real editing functionality.

Also I will need to program a basic tile placer so that I can place the squares and save the map, SCMDraft would do, but would be very hard when I get into the later stages since there are no numbers beside the rows, so it's hard to find an exact tile. If anyone is willing to help make this + a tile editor it could really boost the popularity of tile editing.

Also I don't know anything about the actual workings of the tiles, and very little about how a map is saved. But I do know C# and am willing to spend some time on an editor before actualy making the tiles (as it will cut down majorly on how long it takes to make the tiles, plus I can start some of the actual art in the meantime).

Right now I'm going to figure out how the edges are blended on the SC tiles, and figure out the best and most effeciant way to have the edges blend. Keeping in mind I need to cut down on space to fit all the tiles that I want in.

I think I'm going to make some detailed groups, maybe having 32ish tiles total. Stuff like grass that is used often could get a facelift and offer more opurtunities for decorating, and then I can cut rarely used tiles down to 8. A bit of number crunching, plus counting the fact that I'll have to add alot of blends from tile to tile, I will be able to fit all the current tiles in with breathing room for extras, and add in cool ramps, bridges, etc...


Edit...
Anyone wanting to help with...
Figure out the unknowns, and anything that tiles are capable of doing.
Programing Tileset editor/Tileset placer
Artwork on the tiles

Please have some knowledge of the subject though, I'm doubting alot of people will be interested in helping, but in case there are I don't want to have more than like 2 or 3 people working on this at a time.

AIM: Vyszion
MSN: Vyszion@gmail.com

Like I mentioned, it's going to be difficult to find out what the unknowns are. From my research, the different tiles used the differnt unknowns and even the different "labeled" values incorrectly. My assumption is that Tiledit does not do a correct job of changing values in the tileset files. So this process would either need to be undertaken by someone who has the knowledge of the tileset file format, and can edit the values themself, or after having a more functional program to edit the values.

Tile Edit is really buggy, I don't think all these numbers are being changed. Ok so before I do any serious work I need to get to programing something that actualy works, and lets me import/export en masse. Need some help with this as I have no clue what I'm doing though .


Ok and I have been looking this up all evening but can't find it. How do I load a wpe file into photoshop? I'm thinking I need a program that converts WPE into something PS can read, can't find that program though ><. Also can someone explain how the tileset pallete interacts with the SC pallete, are they two diferent things, or does the tileset pallete contain all the SC colors?

Also I can edit the pallete freely, save the wpe, and then insert that into the MPQ, is that correct? Any problems I would run into/things I need to make sure not to changes?

How would you find these tilesets to extract to, im stuck at step 1.

Star/BrooDat...

Where may a person find these marvelous tools?

Er... In the Starcraft directory?

Can anyone explain how to load the palletes into photoshop, I can't find a program that opens up wpe files ><.

Use PalEdit to convert them to .pal first.

Can anyone upload paledit? The link on here, starcraft.org, camysys, and most other modding sites seem to be dead for it...


Edit...
Nevermind, I found it . http://xgm.ru/files.php?fc=1§ion=sc if anyone else wants it. Or someone wants to get it back on this site =P.


Also does anyone knowhow to make tiles move? like water for example that changes around? can't find where it's told to do this, unless it's built into the EXE or something...

I don't think the tileset itself moves, I'd rather think there is an overlay placed and played on top of the tile.

Anyone have an idea where I can find this overlay?


At first I was thinking one of the unknown values made it change from 1 tile to another, but I can't find any value that is unique to water, and nothing that seems to point to another tile.


Edit...
And I think something is screwy with PalEdit, it won't let me save as any other file type than .wpe even though it is supposed to (I changed the option to save as paintshop pro format, and tried all the other options).

I linked to PalEdit in my post.

:: Edit
The options save in the same extension but they're actually in different formats, I think.

I tried saving by every option as both .pal and .aco it seems to only save it as a .wpe. so I have no idea how to get a wpe file into a .aco file. About the only thing I can come up with right now is to manualy insert all of the colors into photoshop.


edit...
UGH, DOES ANYONE EVER TEST THESE PROGRAMS? Paledit can't save a pallete without changing the colors in it if I save it with the "starcraft file format" option, so I can't even tell if it's loading these damn things corectly. If I save it under paintshop pro format it gets the colors right but how do I know that even though it's a wpe it's going to work in SC.

Try getting the one from the DLDB, it works for me fine...

:: Edit
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