Staredit Network

Excuse me? Are we having a vote to decide to host OSMAP or not? There shouldn't be a vote because we should never host a program like that.

Ok, here is the deal. I believe that OSMAP has only 1 good use, to remove overlaps from map title. And like whole bunch of negative uses. Why should we host a program that has only 1 good use but can harm us so much?

Now, if you have any other good use for OSMAP but removing laps, please post them here. I have much stronger arguments against all these OSMAP use excuses.

I just want to show that OSMAP is nothing else but map stealing/rigging tool.

What if you lost the origianl of your map? What if you want to fix a bug, and the creator of the map has left SC forever? What if you want to see exactly how someone did something? There is more than just one good use.
And I doubt if some little kidiot finds your map they are going to get very far stealing it. All public battle.net cares about these days is porn maps and already stolen and already rigged maps.

ADDITION:
I am sorry, but that is the "biggest piece of crap ever said." I learned from looking at maps. Turred Defence Mixed, specifically. I would look at the triggers and play the map to see exactly what they did, then I would modify things (a copy, of course) and see what would happen.
I still do that sort of thing even now. I find something interesting, and I will play with it until I find how it works.

You won't learn anything looking at a map that's been unlocked with OSMAP.

How often does a mapmaker lose raw version of his map and need to to release further versions of the map?

Invalid reason to create OSMAP as it's a rare situation.

Simple, make your own map, without bugs. Even if a map maker has left SC forever, he has put his own effort into the map. If the map maker has protected the map it is his rights to keep it that way. It's not like it's doing any harm if you don't fix the bug, you know. If the map is not protected then obviously it's up to you to fix the bug or not. But this doesn't require an unprotector.

Invalid reason to create & use OSMAP

Ok let's say I want to see exactly how DEAD made units change their color with triggers. I download [GTA classic] and unprotect it. I open the map in any editor and what do I see? 1400+ triggers either without comments or null commented. All location names are reset, all switch names are reset. Most of the triggers are somehow connected with each other. So I would have to literally understand how did the author make the whole map. It would spend hours or even days to get what I need from it.

Besides if your that bad at map making that you can't learn something on your own, I don't think you will ever learn anything by just looking at a complex map.

On the other hand I could just contact the author and ask him how did he do it. Or Post for support on SEN. Or look in the tutorials. Or look in the wikis. Or whatever else.

Learning from once protected/compressed maps is really useless.

Invalid reason to create & use OSMAP

It doesn't make it right. And even more it doesn't mean we should support it. We have map stealers among us, lyon for example.

Never protected maps? And what exactly did you learn that you couldn't have done yourself?

---

Any other excuses?

I see it very often.

I've seen people thanked for fixing abandoned maps by the creator.

I don't comment, rename locations, rename switches, or do any of that in any of my maps. Why would I need to just to view a map?

Yes... Mixed Turred Defence.. comlex.
If you have never seen a trigger before, it does help.

Yeah, lets ask a website that wont exist until 4-5 years after I need it. I never even knew forums existed when I got SC.

Quote me saying I said it makes it right. I don't believe I said it did. I'm just saying it can be used usefully.

Oh, and just because people don't learn the same way as you do does not make it impossable.

Oh please. Often? Name at least 3 examples in this year.

Yes, I've seen many things too. 3 examples in this year please.

Yea right. I don't really believe that your such a pro to remember all that stuff without renaming while you need to unprotect maps to learn stuff. You make maps at all?

How does this "statement" show OSMAP good use?

We are talking about hosting OSMAP on SEN. How can you DL it from SEN without visiting it?

Your favoring OSMAP here, trying to make it right. As I say, pointing out excuses to use OSMAP.

I learn by making maps and reading SEN map making threads. But yes it is imposible to actually learn something from once protected map.

Anything else?

Some guy over B.net? Your friends? Yea right. As I though nothing actual. Often lol.

Thanked by who? But you don't have any specific cases anyway, so it doesn't count.

I don't see Tux old unprotected map shows OSMAP use. And your statements seem to conflict with each other.

It can't help if you see hundreds of null commented triggers. It can only confuse, especialy if you've never seen a trigger before.

The main reason for this is to show that all the excuses for using OSMAP are just excuses and to make sure we never host such a program.

Now you mention a situation where you don't know about SEN. You still have to go to a website to download OSMAP, probably to an SC website. Most of these websites either have tutorials in them or affiliate websites that has tutorials and support forums.

Well if we talk about hosting it on SEN, then it's obvious that it's easier and better to ask for support here.

Let's call them excuses until you prove me wrong.

You only mentioned Tux's old & never protected map. But my point is that you can't actually so any learning with once protected map, same reasons I stated before. You never opposed them.

I don't want to read the arguements right now... but I've had a map unprotected to view the triggers before, to learn how they did it.

ADDITION:
And... we most likely won't host OSMAP anyways.

I've had really good argue with Urmom about this. As well as Farty, Urmom said that he has learned from maps. I asked what exactly. And we ended up with that some time ago and even now we would like to open any good map in editor. But not to learn, mostly to just see how it looks in editor, the map makers curiosity.

Upload it, but make it a hidden link. Everyone wins.

How does everyone win?

So how does this show OSMAP's good? it doesn't.

We are not talking about beliefs, we are trying to make a valid statement about OSMAP.

Countless posts have been spent in arguments about OSMAP good/bad sides. Now we shall state it once and for all. That requires all sides discussion. And thats what we're having here.

And what didn't you understand there?

I'm not saying anything about you, I'm saying that SEN does exist now and that we should not host OSMAP, can you at least understand that?

Sorry, but I fail to see how it can be good from your making sure. All you said was that you have learned from never protected map and that you learned when there was no SEN where to ask help. How does that makes OSMAP good? God nows.

Besides as far as I understand you've never used OSMAP to learn something.

Yes, it has the feature but triggers with no comments are almost as hard to learn from as null-commented triggers.

I'm not saying that you can't learn from maps, I'm saying that you can't use OSMAP to learn from maps. Can we agree on this one?

Pro OSMAPers have it hosted on SeN, and thus unofficially supported. Anti-OSMAPers have it not spread by SeN and thus it's superficially unsupported.

That makes no sense. At all. In anyway. Shape. Or form.

"Can't" and "shouldn't" are very different words. I don't think we really can come to a consensus, DEAD. Many to most of the staff aren't proactively against OSMAP like you, each of us having his own reason that has been reinforced throughout the years of mapping. It's pretty pointless for you to use the "quote every statement and knock it down" technique, you should have seen enough posts in Lite/Serious Discussion to know that it doesn't achieve anything.



It makes perfect sense. It means that Pro-OSMAP members PM the program to each other to be secretly supporting OSMAP, while Anti-OSMAP members have little or no idea that this is going on.

That contradicts itself so many times...

Thats only because people in LD/SD are way too arrogant and vain to admit that they are wrong.

If your out of arguments but still can't admit that your wrong or just don't want to do it, it doesn't mean anything. We can come to a consensus but it requires some time, some discussion and being un-biased.

With syphons idea nobody wins actually. Pro map stealers can't access it without connection to other map stealers. This would create some kind of map stealing party, which is against everything SEN stands for.

We would still host OSMAP, whichs makes us support it. And it should never happen.

You shouldn't base your argument on the assumption of what you're arguing for (e.g., OSMAP leads to map stealing), and you definitely shouldn't be assuming that people on the other side of your argument are merely there because they "are way too arrogant and vain to admit that they are wrong".

That doesn't justify SEN supporting it.