Staredit Network

Staredit Network, created during the summer of 2003 as a Mapmaking Resource to help people learn, create maps, create new ideas and have a good time.

Staredit Network, September 25, 2006, a place where people go to whine, flame, cry, fight, get displeased at others, accuse others, a place where nothing of it's original intentions is happening in it's current stage.

I've seen SEN go through the best of it's days and the worst of it's days. I joined on July 2004, when there was only 2 Administrators and 2 Staff members. Now I fear that the worse has happened, our climax has passed, the last few pages of the book are yet to be written, but a sequel seems uncertain.

First, I'd like to start analysing the general member community that consists on this site. They will follow pretty much anything that the Staff and Administration say, period. The Staff and Administration has been trying to get that thought that you will be banned from the site if you break a rule, that almost everyone just follows others thoughts. Remember Kellimus, the member which has probably defied, standed up and against the Staff and Administration, including myself on one occasion? This is clearly the best example of such situation. So much emphasis was put into this guy, that fear struck most of the members.

As the great 18th century philosophers said, a society which thinks the same will not function, since it is not a society, but a monarchy. We can easily relate those terms to present day occurings at our website. You need someone to stand up against you, tell you your own faults, for you to look at the mirror, and not help yourself, but the people.

We know that change doesn't come with a script to follow all the rules. One must see the change in order to change. Kellimus and many others were a clear example. Rule breaking occured, they were punished. Some defied the rules, argued with them, expressed themselves against them in such a way, that one would logically have to think, and find out, about why has this person come to this conclusion? They were banned, and the flaw in the system which caused such people to come to these acts was never known.

I never left the site, twice, because I didn't have time, it was because it was really going downhill. I know some of you were really close friends of mine, especially Staff, Administration and old retired members which have been labeled as "Terrorists", but I will only speak of this which we call facts.

First time I left was simple, rules were being broken, people were in turnmoil and the purpose of the site was begining to slip away. Then I came back, trying to restore something that could help others, but then I gave up. I gave up not because of the members, but because of incompetence spread through the site.

Traditions never last, the same rules will never reing for long. From my aproximate 2 years as a Staff member with my downtimes, I always took great notice of 2 major flaws. Only 1 person decided what goes on the site, and the policy of: "We go by the book". Initially it was effective, until more problems started popping up. Problems don't occur spontaneously, they occur because there is a flaw somewhere, something needs to change, somewhere is a bang waiting to happen. But instead, we tried to grasp at those old rules.

Slowly have we been seeing, or at least ignoring, the fact that this was all happening beneath us, but recently, 2 major events marked the end of our story and only the conclusion if left to be written. Do we want to close the book, or open part two?

I don't know if any of you noticed, but I sure did. In fact, I'll use this as a confession that if I said this while I still had my position, I would've been kicked and possibly banned from the site. I had my own rulebook for the site, I moderated upon my terms and punished upon my terms. I always talked with the person first, I tried to sort it out, I tried to make change for the better. That is why I warned so little people, but then why did I suspened and request the ban of so many? Because incompetence drives us back, and that is what I attempted to flush. Coming back to Kellimus. If I had moderated by the book, he would've been banned a month after he started rampaging. But I kept sparing him, I only warned him once, I talked to him so many times and personally, he is a better person and forum member than most of what has passed through this site. Why do you think I was quiet on all the Kellimus discussions? Because I was secretly helping and talking to him. You can say the same about devilesk and a few others.

Now, I also tried to change policy only to be said "NO" most of the time. Sometimes I did it on my own, thinking it would be seen as a step forward to change. Others I proposed or made a similar post as this, most of the time it failed, but some have worked wonders. This is the second flaw, change isn't welcomed, and change is the only thing that drives forward.

Now about these 2 major events. I'll start with the first in terms of date. So many times have we punished those who go against not our ideals, but those written on a piece of paper. Then it happened, a major Staff ember of our site broke one of the major rules. Swift action was taken, no analytical thought put into it. That person was an essential part of the site and with his dismissal, everyone is suddenly in favor with the Staff and Administration. When OSMAP was initially released, I would recall percentages of 55%/45% of in favor and against, in no particular order. Now I see an impressive 80%/20%, and that small 20% is pretty much all the people that would vote there. If the whole community voted, the difference would be much higher.

Why do I state all this? Because I see absolutely zero evidence that steps were taken to deal with the situation. Instead, someone refered to an old book and decided to make the punishment. Why am I certain that there is no evidence that a discussion took place to remove LegacyWeapon from his position? Because after my Staff position was removed, I still have access to the Staff Forum and I've read every bit of it, and wondered where these discussions that should've happened within the Staff are? Nowhere to be found. You want proof? I'll give you screenshots.

Now to write about Yoshi's ultimatum to shut down the site. To put it down simply, someone else was willing to take responsibility for the site's end. It was refused, so now it rests in the current Administration's hands to deal with. You can end it here, or start it now, it only rests with you.

Now I've talked way too much about Administration, now I'll move to Staff. They are just the Administrator's right hand. I even saw a certain Staff member not debate, but state, that the members shouldn't even be able to vote on a certain issue. What is that all about? What makes you think that you can't learn, or better put, view something from someone else's point of view? This is the worst possible act that one can do in order to improve upon the current situation. I'm not saying that all Staff members are like this, there's a few good people in there really working for the best of the community, but most are just puppets.

In conclusion to my lenghtiest arguement against the site's policies, leaders, and current route that it is taking. I deem this my personal ultimatum, the last attempt that I will make to improve this site. GET YOUR ACT UP TOGHETHER, LISTEN, ANALYZE AND LEARN IN ORDER TO IMPROVE.

I will post a link to this in Staff Forum, I'll spread the word to those that no longer visit the site, the descision will be taken now, not maybe in this thread, but at this time. You may involuntarilly make the descision to end it, it may last another year, but let it be known that it was at this time. I am not the person that will make that second book of this site, nor close the first one, I will make that spark in someone's mind, to close it, or open a new one.

BeeR_KeG
July 15th 2004 - September 25 2006?
Global Moderator (Dec. 2004 - Summer 2006)
DLDB Keeper (Oct. 2004 - Summer 2006)

That's what I'm here for, now.

Personally, I'm inclined to side with the pro-OSMAP team than the anti one (as I personally believe more information must be shared to keep SC alive), but so far I have been displeased with the tactics of the pro side. They've been keeping secrets (LW) and forcing the site to come down (Yoshi) because they didn't like the climate around here. It's okay for them not to like it, but I haven't seen either one of them or their friends (such as devilesk) try to speak rationally about it. Well, Yoshi did speak some about it, but he got pretty angry in the wiki thread and I'm sure he could have been more cool headed about it. I haven't seen LW post hardly AT ALL since his confession thread, and devilesk was just being obnoxious while he was still here.

I don't believe they did much to try and create a reasonable discussion about changing SEN's policies and they have so far used nagging, secret keeping, and sheer force as tactics.

Half the people say people are out getting smashed for no reason, the other half claims certain people are getting away with murder. There's been a double standard in what I've heard goes on in this community for a long time.


I personally believes monarchy flourishes under good leadership. It's just that some irresponsible people ruin things for others... like drinking or speeding in your car.


"You're a fool for this", "Do this female dog", etc, while may bring up valid points, are NOT the way to tell people things.


I NEVER banned anyone for protesting a rule alone. There had to be some chronic flaming or something behind it. Banning someone for pointing out a problem is simply asinine. As stated above, "You're a fool for this", "Do this female dog", etc, while may bring up valid points, are NOT the way to tell people things.


That's why I wrote new ones. Have you read the newest copy? I seriously wish you would wrote this post... a year or so ago.


Haven't you noticed that I like people who take initiative? I would only ban you for not sharing.


It's damn welcome now, you just haven't been here lately. I'd love for you to draw up some plans in the Staff Forum. I did a search and the old ones you've made... I wish I'd considered them more (did I have this much power back then... I may have still been asking IP before making major policy changes )


I referred to no book, post, topic, or anything. There was no rule written for anything of the sort. Most of my decision took place over IM conversations.


Sad but true. I do try to hire staff that think for themselves.


Easier said than done.

You leave me with general ideas, but not many specifics. You have the power to give us your advice and help, and I could really use it, because I can't do everything alone. I'll write my post about thoughts on the community tomorrow, maybe.

Look, guys. We've had some hard times lately. I can't speak for what part of the policies might have caused this, whether there's not enough slack being pulled, etc. But what I observe is that after yoshi left originally, things started slipping right about then. Many of the elites also left at around that time (not all permanently, though), and the site was left under hastily assembled new management, lacking a proper continuity plan and clear goal in mind.

The other problem is obvious. 8+ years of waiting for continuity of a game long outdated quantitatively, qualitatively, and without a fresh source of new growth. Blizzard's lolligagging is definitely what's been putting the most strain on things lately. SC Ghost was a joke, and I think on some level we all knew it. Blizzard has been riding high on their WoW cash cow, with little need to even blink twice at their other franchises. But what's worse than all that; even if they were making SC2 the whole time, is the silent treatment. It's a popular thing with corporations lately, but it's absolute torture to fans and sub communities of a game. 8 years of torture, to be more precise. That alone has got to be taxing in its own right.



So basically, with not one but two major moralle hits like that, it seems to me this has less to do with the staff and more to do with simply the "what next?" question. Purpose, in other words. Something we lack.


*sigh* You guys are probably not gonna like what I'll suggest on that one, but it really might be for the best now. I'll hold off on telling what it is until I have all my facts straight, though.

Meanwhile, I do however think this drama lately has helped bring us back together to some degree lately.

I believe the problem is the competition among the members of this site. We all try hard to prove our points to each other until we create factions, most recently, those on OSMAP: Pro and Anti. I side with the few who agree with Pro-OSMAP. I can give as many points as I like to persuade somebody against OSMAP to understand and accept it, but what appears as no reason, they'll continue to reject it. Generally, when this happens, members begin to try to force the other members into joining there side by pointing out the flaws of their arguements. Since the majority of the members have a "god-complex", they argue back and eventually flame each other.

Our competition with each other is why SEN has gone through such a negative change, but we could've known this would happen eventually. After all, it's just entropy. The sequal will probably be like most others: not as good as the original.

No, that issue is merely a catalyst. A side effect of the real above issues. Protection issues similar to that rage on in other forums and mediums beyond SC, after all. Even in politics, loosely.

One thing I can say about the polling of osmap.
I'm sure in the early stages of its revelation to the public, it was opposed, because of the idea that many of us on the site would not want our maps being taken and edited by someone else. Then if you sit and think about it for a while, its already out there, and whining about it wouldn't really accomplish much of anything. Standing on the side who opposes it would be a losing battle, as the other side would have all the weapons, so they switch and get in on the trend.

And although most of the people on the site do act the same, there are still those who stand out from the norm on issues. I think that having rules everyone agrees with is a functional government. If the majority of the people do not agree with the rules there should be change. Except in the case where the laws made by the majority are detrimental to a minority. I am an adamant supporter of everyones ideals being promoted and would not demean anyone for wanting change.

I distinctly remember being involved in a discussion in op uUu for that particular topic.

I would have added "for example", but that would sound odd as an introduction to a paragraph.

All this crap about OSMAP and site quality and etc is starting to get ridiculous... Can't you people give it a rest? female doging only makes matters worse.

But I believe even with the system of "majority rules", it's still wrong.

Say you have a million people voting on one thing, yet a million and ONE vote on another. Does that one really justify throwing half of the community?

If you want my thoughts - yes I would like to see OSMAP.

You can believe that I will open up the maps we currently have and label them with made by Revelade or whatever - but that's your choice.

Or I might simply open up a map I've made, that was locked for I believe a year, that I couldn't open since I lost the original copy.

Or I might not do anything.

I just know that I got into mapping through unprotected means, though it was for learning than for pride.

But on the larger picture, I am actually glad we do have issues that do rock our foundations. It brings people together, especially myself. It's these times that the best discussions are at hand as well.

In the case of LW... obviously Moose made a good decision if LW can delete all the tutorials and post a pornish-picture up on the splash screen. Speaks for character, ya know?

lol.

When the heck did that happen?

About the time when Yoshi decided to hold us hostage.

What I am scared about is if they saved our IP addresses and they can select and choose who they want at their new site like they are doing at the invision forums.

Why are you so obsessed about this new site Gamma?

(And your IP address...)

(Post in a hurry)

Speaking about the flaws of the system; you know, there is a wonderful phrase: "Each 10 years a revolutionary must rise to keep the goverment clean". That's not for SEN, but we can perform changes with the support of our administration. Moose's problem was that he didn't want to accept new ideas/suggestions.

Well, now is a f**king good time to make some experiments with the site.

About people on SEN. Though I didn't have many discussions with people here, and those that I had were quite short, I must say that I really enjoyed talking to only a fiew people, like MA, Ber_Keg, and a fiew more. What's with the rest ? People DO NOT WISH TO LISTEN TO OTHERS. And do not accept other points of view.

Why was it all fine in the old days? As I see it, people were tolerant.

Ok, now I seriously believe that this whole attitude of "Oh no, 'they' are going to create a new map-making site" and "'They' betrayed us and are going to create a pro-OSMAP site!' needs to end.

For one thing, it's not our decision, it's not Moose's decision, it's up to Legacy and the others whether they want to create a new site or not. People are going insane, acting as if this is some sort of war, but it's not.

When did this turn into SEN vs. everyone else? I've recieved PMs from people essentially asking me to spy on this new community as if they're some sort of enemy. Why?

Everyone, whether it be Moose, Legacy or even the pro-OSMAP people that you seem to fear so much has the same goal in mind: promoting mapmaking, spreading knowledge and helping the SC community grow and thrive.

If they want to create a new community, good. I wish them all the luck, because they have the best interests of the larger StarCraft community at heart. Why not share knowledge and co-operate? We all want the same thing.

Scroll up to the top of the page, and you'll see some text right underneath the SEN logo. It says "Pushing StarCraft Maps to the Limit", not "Fighting the evil scourge of OSMAP" or "Defending StarCraft from Yoshi's EVIL COMMUNITY OF DOOM!". SEN started as a place to share new concepts and ideas, and we've been letting this stupid bickering and poltics get in the way of the true mission of SEN.

We have two choices here:

Cooperate, share knowledge and have all mapmakers and modders work together, regardless of their stance on trivial issues like OSMAP, and once again push StarCraft maps to the limit.

Or the alternative, which is to fight, bicker and drag eachother down, eventually dooming the SC community.

As Tuxedo pointed out, we haven't had a sequel for 8 years. StarCraft cannot survive as a divided community. Grow up, help each other and move on.

Good post Voy...


I don't believe this is true. Just because he didn't accept OSMAP means he doesn't accept new ideas.

I don't understand, people that first were on SEN tell me how great it was, and how it was so much better and stuff. But what is the difference between SEN back then and SEN now... Can somebody explain to me?

Look again Voy!
[attachmentid=21144]

ROFL, people actually asked you to spy on our forums? You aren't even registered to the site.

Yeah... I never said it made sense...

I agree with Voyager. Quarrel with this new community will only divide us further.