Staredit Network

Staredit Network -> Melee Production & Showcase -> (4) Frost Temple
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mp)Excalibur on 2007-01-06 at 10:24:10
user posted image
With a broken finger, an update:
This is the final. Reguardless of looks, advantages, balances, or whatever, i feel that this map is play worthy. I feel it isnt insanely unbalanced in anyway nor does it have such imbalances that will so heavily impact gameplay.
Id like to thank everyone who has helped me out with this map.
Current Version: Final

Changes from 1.5:
Various path width changes
Base wall changes
Doodad placement


Changes from 1.4:
Nats terrain changed
Opened up some narrow paths
Narrowed slightly base enterances
Ramps from snow to ice added for adition flanking
Various minor terrain fixes/changes

Changes from 1.3:
Map opened up drasticly. Mid sides totally re designed.
New expos added.
Minerals changed to final pattern.
Drastic terrain changes evident through out map.

Changes from 1.2:
Opened up, paths widened and added.
Minerals redone at mains and nats.
Minerals also redone at 12 and 6 positions.
Minor doodad changes.
Nats changed a bit.
Note: Im done making the minerals look pretty. They fit the terrain. This is a map not a beauty contest. tongue.gif


Changes from 1.1:
Upped back to 192x192
Number of minerals at start/nat changed
Nats totally redone, better protected
Entirely new mid due to map size.

Changes from 1.0:
Map started out as a 192x192. I changed to 192x128 because it was too much room.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by dumbducky on 2007-01-06 at 10:39:42
Nats are kinda far away. And it looks like protoss would have a hard time manuevering around, and terran could easily set up a choke.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mp)Excalibur on 2007-01-06 at 10:44:55
QUOTE(dumbducky @ Jan 6 2007, 10:39 AM)
Nats are kinda far away.  And it looks like protoss would have a hard time manuevering around, and terran could easily set up a choke.
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Working on that a bit as we speak. Im thinking of upgrading it back to 192x192, as i have alot more ideas for the mid now that im looking at it.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yenku on 2007-01-06 at 11:05:54
not 192x192, thats too big. In fact most 4 player maps are 128x128.
There are two things you need above all else right now, more room (not map size), and naturals outside the choke to the main (make a shorter choke).
You can open up room by changing some of that ice to snow or dirt.

Looks like purple has 4 minerals. I would make the mains in this map 9 minerals, also try and make a better mineral layout, straightlines dont work well and are ugly.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mp)Excalibur on 2007-01-06 at 11:43:30
QUOTE(Yenku @ Jan 6 2007, 11:05 AM)
not 192x192, thats too big.  In fact most 4 player maps are 128x128.
There are two things you need above all else right now, more room (not map size), and naturals outside the choke to the main (make a shorter choke).
You can open up room by changing some of that ice to snow or dirt.

Looks like purple has 4 minerals.  I would make the mains in this map 9 minerals, also try and make a better mineral layout, straightlines dont work well and are ugly.
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I upgraded to the 192x192 anyway. The map looks awesome, and i really think it works.
Im going to try to mess with the nats a bit, what i already did (Not yet screen shotted) is thinned the main base choke and put a back door to a back door put in the nat's back compound wall.
Purples minerals are fine, i double checked them. The mains are 6 but i might up them to 8 or so.

Thanks for the feedback.

ADDITION:
New version up. Editing changelog.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Killer_Kow(MM) on 2007-01-06 at 11:52:54
Too tight. Open it up a bit more, less narrow pathways. Also, I absolutely despise your mineral layouts.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mp)Excalibur on 2007-01-06 at 12:26:38
QUOTE(Killer_Kow(MM) @ Jan 6 2007, 11:52 AM)
Too tight. Open it up a bit more, less narrow pathways. Also, I absolutely despise your mineral layouts.
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1. Yea im working on it.
2.
ohno.gif
Omg KK i think im going to cry. Seriously.
No really where exactly? I cant think of a better way for the mains without just doing lines and the nats are like that so a CC can comfortably be built in them.

ADDITION:
Updated again. Hopefully fixed a few things.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Killer_Kow(MM) on 2007-01-06 at 13:18:40
The way you have them NOW forces workers to go around the front ones to get to the back. Look at some pro maps, and see how their layouts look.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yenku on 2007-01-06 at 19:00:04
Look at the pro maps and how they do mineral layouts.
Im tempted to close this topic because it is clear the map is unbalanced and that you did not read this.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mp)Excalibur on 2007-01-07 at 16:45:08
Ive read it, and i cant see what your talking about with the balance. Im fixing the minerals, but arranging them and not blocking the workers/messing up base room is being a bit troublesome.

As for the tightness of the map ive cleared up alot of it, i just havent gotten a screen shot up as i want to finish everything i currently know of that needs to be fixed.

Im trying to provide more flanking options, and keep rushes at a minimum though. Ive added in some ramps that i think will help. Screen shot and update soon.

ADDITION:
Updated. Hope this fixes all current problems guys. Let me know.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yenku on 2007-01-07 at 20:55:41
Ah, but if you've read it, you would know that chokes to main bases shouldn't be that wide, there shouldn't be easily protected expansions with lots of minerals, and paths to the enemy should not be so narrow.

Work on that. Keep with it.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mp)Excalibur on 2007-01-08 at 19:53:06
Once again, updated. All changes are in the topic changelog.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Chef on 2007-01-09 at 15:01:53
Zerg is at a huge disadvantage against Terran on this map. It's too difficult for them to protect their 'natural' and even harder to defend their main. Also, there are a lot of straight lines. It is common opinion that this practice is ugly on almost anymap, excluding space maps.

Tips for your next map: Keep the natural right outside the main's entrance such that sunkens could be placed to protect both the natural and the main entrance at the same time. Also, make sure you have at least some open parts of your map, so that large armies can travel more easily, and Zergs and Protoss players can flank. Mains need to be much bigger. Terran and Protoss need room to build their unit producing stuctures here, and it looks on this map like even 4 would be a tight squeeze. Last, if you learn how to do one thing, let it be mineral placement. Look at how pro maps have their minerals placed. Try to mimic this technique.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mp)Excalibur on 2007-01-09 at 15:03:50
Thanks Chef, infact i was considering that right when i saw this had a new reply. If you could DL the screen shot and circle/comment some specific stuff, (if it wouldnt be too much trouble ofcourse) because im honestly out of ideas on how to fix this one, and im really not in the mood to start fresh.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Chef on 2007-01-09 at 15:11:35
It is my experienced opinion that you should just let this map go. Fixing it would be like making a new map. If you start a new map, you can even just start by doing the mains and their naturals first, and then recieve advice from the forum and if it's good, and what to do next. That way you don't spend too much time making another map we'll shoot down, but you'll also spend more time on the main and natural, and perhaps start to realise it's importance.

If you do that, I will edit the screen shot of your new map to show you how you can improve things, but for this map, I don't feel it's productive. Sorry.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mp)Excalibur on 2007-01-09 at 15:13:37
Very well then. A new map i shall start. Thanks for the input chef.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Yenku on 2007-01-09 at 16:55:29
Indeed, I agree with such suggestions, I don't know why you went against what I said and made a bigger map in the first place..
Try a normal sized map.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mp)Excalibur on 2007-01-12 at 14:40:25
QUOTE(Yenku @ Jan 9 2007, 04:55 PM)
Indeed, I agree with such suggestions, I don't know why you went against what I said and made a bigger map in the first place..
Try a normal sized map.
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I liked the map size. It was easier to work with and my personal feel for the map required this size.

This is the final, updates at the top. Check the screenie.
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