Report, edit, etc...Posted by CheeZe on 2005-02-01 at 20:16:37
QUOTE
scientific data? Half of any religon is believing, not seeing. There is no scientific data, and it varies from person to person on how religon influences your life. For example, I had a speech impediment when I was younger so I didn't speak much, but when I learned that Moses had one as well it gave me a bit more courage. There are also a lot of bible verses that I base my life philosophy on, but you seem to be pretty close-minded to the idea of getting answers from the bible.
What I interpretted from your text:
-Religion requires 90% (or more) faith
-The bible can help people gain the courage they need, but not "fictional" books
By using the stories of the bible, and applying it to the real world is a good thing. But to assume the bible is true because of the connection is obviously flawed. Why not use Lord of the Rings? Look how desperate Frodo was at Mount Doom! Can we prove that event never happened? Nope. Why do we see it as fiction?
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That'ts like saying, prove evolution with The bible. (Yes it could be possible, but not very plausible.)
Why would I use an outdated source? I would follow the Scientific Method. It has been proven to be useful for many many generations now. So, if the bible is true, we must be able to have scientific reasoning.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kame on 2005-02-01 at 21:37:42
QUOTE(Nozomu @ Feb 1 2005, 05:53 PM)
See, there's the arrogance of Christianity. You claim that you don't know everything, but that statement implies that you at least know something. What gave you that idea? What makes you trust your own perception so much?
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uhm. Arrogance? All I know is that God is out there and he is watching over me because he loves me. That's what I know.
Where as you think you know everything through using this flawed human logic. I fail to see any arrogance in either.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Nozomu on 2005-02-01 at 22:35:24
Yes, arrogance. Your belief that you know something is arrogant. I make no claims on knowing anything. In fact, I feel confident stating that I know absolutely nothing. My reasoning based on science is arrogant, but at least science can accurately predict phenomena which we know to be reproducable. Whereas Christianity cannot accurately predict reproducable phenomena, except where it has selectively chosen to believe science. Is that justification for my arrogance? Probably not, but hey, I'm an irrational creature.
"Flawed logic". That's an interesting term. Logic infers making assumptions and drawing conclusions from them. The catch is that sometimes you must convince those who disagree that your assumptions are correct by making an argument. Here are my assumptions: I know nothing. You know nothing. Humanity knows nothing. Here is my conclusion: We are not qualified to explain how the universe came to exist. My logic is perfectly sound, whether or not the assumptions I made are true.
"Flawed logic". That's an interesting term. Logic infers making assumptions and drawing conclusions from them. The catch is that sometimes you must convince those who disagree that your assumptions are correct by making an argument. Here are my assumptions: I know nothing. You know nothing. Humanity knows nothing. Here is my conclusion: We are not qualified to explain how the universe came to exist. My logic is perfectly sound, whether or not the assumptions I made are true.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by ShadowBrood on 2005-02-01 at 23:20:06
QUOTE(FireKame @ Feb 1 2005, 07:37 PM)
All I know is that God is out there and he is watching over me because he loves me. That's what I know.
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Ok FireKame here is probably the only one here besides nozumu and me that can take this maturly and not attempt to kill me.
With this quote you are strengthening what nozumu is saying by saying you KNOW. What you really don't know is that you actually don't know, you believe.
Another thing, Kow, I never said Christians are crazies, I said some of them are... namely Bush.
Everyone reading this read: Just Another Roadside Atrraction or something like that and listen to Comfort Eagle by Cake. Hopefully those should give you some insights on religion but don't read the book unless you can take some heavy heav HEAVY knowledge that might even question faith itself.
If possible I will include Comfort Eagle into this post and if you listen to it elsewhere and don't understand it it's basically how showing how the media is a religion because it's popularity and the ability to tell people how to live and people are accepting it. It's a really deep song if you understand the whole thing.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-02-01 at 23:43:55
QUOTE(Nozomu @ Feb 1 2005, 06:53 PM)
See, there's the arrogance of Christianity. You claim that you don't know everything, but that statement implies that you at least know something. What gave you that idea? What makes you trust your own perception so much?
Not if there's no evidence that that God exists. Then it's a waste.
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Not if there's no evidence that that God exists. Then it's a waste.
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Christianity is NOT arrogant. Claiming that you know something isnt arrogance; it's a way of saying you're human, you have a brain that works. If you know nothing, then im sorry but you're just plain flat stupid. Being arrogant would be saying you know MORE of something than someone else. If you just say you know something, then good for you.
QUOTE(Nozomu @ Feb 1 2005, 09:35 PM)
Yes, arrogance. Your belief that you know something is arrogant. I make no claims on knowing anything. In fact, I feel confident stating that I know absolutely nothing. My reasoning based on science is arrogant, but at least science can accurately predict phenomena which we know to be reproducable. Whereas Christianity cannot accurately predict reproducable phenomena, except where it has selectively chosen to believe science. Is that justification for my arrogance? Probably not, but hey, I'm an irrational creature.
If you feel confident stating that you know absolutely nothing, then that's fine. We'll just have a totally different attitude upon you. You'll have a mark on your forehead which marks you as a mentally derranged person. People would look down upon you thinking you're a dummy because you know nothing.
QUOTE(ShadowBrood @ Feb 1 2005, 10:20 PM)
Ok FireKame here is probably the only one here besides nozumu and me that can take this maturly and not attempt to kill me.
Yea, unlike me. I can't take this peacefully...
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Another thing, Kow, I never said Christians are crazies, I said some of them are... namely Bush.
How can you justify that Bush is crazy? You dont see Bush sending jews into concentration camps to be slaughtered, you dont see Bush killing his own people, you dont see Bush spreading fallacious statements about Christianity which belie other's beliefs.
Bush is trying to do his best, although not perfectly well. His reasons for all his actions at least have some rationality. Maybe ones we disagree with, but not ones we deem as irrational.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Nozomu on 2005-02-02 at 02:14:14
QUOTE(MilleniumArmy)
If you feel confident stating that you know absolutely nothing, then that's fine. We'll just have a totally different attitude upon you. You'll have a mark on your forehead which marks you as a mentally derranged person. People would look down upon you thinking you're a dummy because you know nothing.
There you go again with the arrogance. As if the threat of societal rejection ever mattered to a philosopher. Human beings are arrogant in nature because they believe that they actually matter. There is no evidence that we matter or that there's some kind of huge plan, so from that we can infer that making the assumption that we matter is arrogant.
And calling me "mentally deranged"? Are you all of a sudden qualified to make that judgement? Is society? I am a productive member of society and yet you call me mentally deranged, while there are people out there who kill for religion (Christians too!). Do you always judge people on what they claim to know, or do you do the logical thing and wait for them to demonstrate what they know?
QUOTE(MilleniumArmy)
How can you justify that Bush is crazy? You dont see Bush sending jews into concentration camps to be slaughtered, you dont see Bush killing his own people, you dont see Bush spreading fallacious statements about Christianity which belie other's beliefs.
Actually, the term "crazy" can mean a hundred different things, so let's forget about using it. But the term "rational" has very few meanings, and the one we use most often in this context is "use of the ability to reason". I think we all have that ability, but do we all use it? Well, forming a conclusion with evidence whose credibility is in question (like the Bible) is an irrational act, because logic tells us that in most cases for a correct conclusion to be formed our assumptions must be correct (I say "in most cases" because it is possible to arrive at a correct conclusion even with incorrect assumptions, it just happens very rarely in the scientific world). Thus, every decision Bush makes in which he uses religion as justification is irrational. His somewhat successful attempts to ban stem-cell research and abortion are therefore irrational.
The atrocities you stated above have all been committed by Christians in the past (Japanese concentration camps in WWII and sending troops to fight in any instance ever such as Iraq or Vietnam). And spreading fallacious statements about Christianity that belie others' beliefs? What have we said that's wrong about Christianity? I can't think of a single false statement.
Listen, I'm not telling you to stop believing in God. That's your prerogative and yours alone. But believing in something and knowing something are two different things. I'm reasonably sure that none of my arguments have been fallacious, since I make a point to read over all of the argumentative fallacies once a week to try and improve myself intellectually. Soon I'll have them all memorized and integrated into my thought-processes, but for now I still have to look some of them up. If you guys are interested, check out this site. Remember, I'm not trying to change your guys' minds about God. I'm trying to figure out for myself why you believe in God in the most logical way possible, and I just can't do it. The explanation that human beings are naturally irrational isn't a good enough answer. I love you guys for giving me the chance to write down my ideas. Thanks for tolerating my attempts to change the incoherent jumble in my head into an ordered, legible manifesto.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by ShadowBrood on 2005-02-02 at 10:27:33
Wait Millenium Army you're saying you aren't crazy if you say God's sending you visions of liberating Iraqis reducing taxes and telling you that technology is bringing the downfall of the USA?
You're saying someone who's saying this perfectly sane? Ok sorry to sound like Sala here but WTF IS YOUR
ING PROBLEM??!?! Again I apologize if that was a little too rough but honestly that guy is as nuts as Hitler. Oh and Hitler and his council thought that Jews caused all that was wrong because they were (Hitlers administration) Christians and the Jews killed Jesus (supposedly) so Nazi-ism is a branch of Christianity so don't say Christianity is pure.
Millenium you also prove Nozumu's point more by saying you KNOW that a God exists. You don't know that do you? That's faith, you automatically assume whatever these people preaching to you are always correct.
You're saying someone who's saying this perfectly sane? Ok sorry to sound like Sala here but WTF IS YOUR
ING PROBLEM??!?! Again I apologize if that was a little too rough but honestly that guy is as nuts as Hitler. Oh and Hitler and his council thought that Jews caused all that was wrong because they were (Hitlers administration) Christians and the Jews killed Jesus (supposedly) so Nazi-ism is a branch of Christianity so don't say Christianity is pure.Millenium you also prove Nozumu's point more by saying you KNOW that a God exists. You don't know that do you? That's faith, you automatically assume whatever these people preaching to you are always correct.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Donut_Ninja( on 2005-02-02 at 11:56:29
..... I am a christain
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Nozomu on 2005-02-02 at 17:03:02
Geez, Shadow, try to keep this civil. I don't want MilleniumArmy jumping all over me again just because you've managed to piss him off.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kame on 2005-02-02 at 17:12:12
yea shadow. I'm giving you a verbal warning.
moving on...
Yet you claim to know nothing, but you pretend to know that you know nothing? I do not understand your contradiction. I don't know how anything came about either; but I choose to think that God did it, just as you choose to think that it wasn't God.
Would you say you're arrogant because you believe that I know nothing?
Logic comes down to what you see, but how do you know that your eyes do not decieve you? I never claimed to know how the universe came about, but I think God had something to do with it.
And if you know nothing, how the heck do you know english? How are you walking around? How are you alive, for goodness sake?
I'm beginning to realize this may be more of a civil rant thread than a real debate.
Why should I? I'm not being mean, but could you tell us what the book's about?
moving on...
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Here are my assumptions: I know nothing. You know nothing. Humanity knows nothing. Here is my conclusion: We are not qualified to explain how the universe came to exist.
Yet you claim to know nothing, but you pretend to know that you know nothing? I do not understand your contradiction. I don't know how anything came about either; but I choose to think that God did it, just as you choose to think that it wasn't God.
Would you say you're arrogant because you believe that I know nothing?
Logic comes down to what you see, but how do you know that your eyes do not decieve you? I never claimed to know how the universe came about, but I think God had something to do with it.
And if you know nothing, how the heck do you know english? How are you walking around? How are you alive, for goodness sake?
I'm beginning to realize this may be more of a civil rant thread than a real debate.
QUOTE
Everyone reading this read: Just Another Roadside Atrraction or something like that and listen to Comfort Eagle by Cake. Hopefully those should give you some insights on religion but don't read the book unless you can take some heavy heav HEAVY knowledge that might even question faith itself.
Why should I? I'm not being mean, but could you tell us what the book's about?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-02-02 at 17:34:36
Mad? I'm not mad at neone.
But you see, the reason we know God exists is because we have experienced him. We're not continuing to be christians if we just go by blind faith. We've seen what he's done to our lives and therefore we know he existed. It's something hard to explain and would be impossible for you atheists or w/e to understand.
And claiming you know something isnt Arrogance; Being arrogant would be saying you know MORE of something than someone else. And since none of you guys objected to my argument about that in my previous post, then i assume u guys agreed with it.
Btw, here's an intersting point i'd like to bring out to you guys:
Wonder why all these things just happen to be this way?
More info here: http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html
But you see, the reason we know God exists is because we have experienced him. We're not continuing to be christians if we just go by blind faith. We've seen what he's done to our lives and therefore we know he existed. It's something hard to explain and would be impossible for you atheists or w/e to understand.
And claiming you know something isnt Arrogance; Being arrogant would be saying you know MORE of something than someone else. And since none of you guys objected to my argument about that in my previous post, then i assume u guys agreed with it.
Btw, here's an intersting point i'd like to bring out to you guys:
QUOTE
The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.4 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life. The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day. And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet it restrains our massive oceans from spilling over across the continents.5
Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life: It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees. Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.6. Water is also chemically inert. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body. Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees. Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter. Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.7
The human brain... simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of this article in your hand. Your brain registers emotional responses, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands. The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.8 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information... can we say mere chance brought about such an astounding organ? When NASA launches a shuttle mission, it is assumed a monkey didn't write the plan, but intelligent and knowledgeable minds. How does one explain the existence of the human brain? Only a mind more intelligent and knowledgeable than humanity could have created the human brain.
Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life: It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees. Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.6. Water is also chemically inert. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body. Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees. Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter. Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.7
The human brain... simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of this article in your hand. Your brain registers emotional responses, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands. The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.8 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information... can we say mere chance brought about such an astounding organ? When NASA launches a shuttle mission, it is assumed a monkey didn't write the plan, but intelligent and knowledgeable minds. How does one explain the existence of the human brain? Only a mind more intelligent and knowledgeable than humanity could have created the human brain.
Wonder why all these things just happen to be this way?
More info here: http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kame on 2005-02-02 at 17:40:47
QUOTE(MillenniumArmy @ Feb 2 2005, 03:34 PM)
Mad? I'm not mad at neone.
But you see, the reason we know God exists is because we have experienced him. We're not continuing to be christians if we just go by blind faith. We've seen what he's done to our lives and therefore we know he existed. It's something hard to explain and would be impossible for you atheists or w/e to understand.
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But you see, the reason we know God exists is because we have experienced him. We're not continuing to be christians if we just go by blind faith. We've seen what he's done to our lives and therefore we know he existed. It's something hard to explain and would be impossible for you atheists or w/e to understand.
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There we go...I've been trying to say that...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MindArchon on 2005-02-02 at 18:32:27
QUOTE
Wonder why all these things just happen to be this way?
I honestly believe we have evolved to our surroundings, so it would make the Earth seem like the perfect place for life. So other life forms on other planets might not need water to live, or they could handle such atmospheres. I think that argument is completely false.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-02-02 at 18:39:43
QUOTE(MindArchon @ Feb 2 2005, 05:32 PM)
I honestly believe we have evolved to our surroundings, so it would make the Earth seem like the perfect place for life. So other life forms on other planets might not need water to live, or they could handle such atmospheres. I think that argument is completely false.
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But the argument is saying why it happens to be that way. Is it just coincidence or is it really the work of God? Yes we did evolve to our surroundings, but why did we? How did we start off originally? What else could explain the true meaning of why we were able to evolve and adapt?
And what about the other two arguments?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by ShadowBrood on 2005-02-02 at 19:12:29
Ok FireKame it takes a look at how some technological, cultural, and religious principles could have been twisted to what we believe and such... BAH! That sucked it's one of those books that I can't explain, kinda like Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. You just can't really explain the real meaning of it.
Oh and it's written by Tom Robbins.
Oh and guys I'm not trying to press anything negative and verbal but what Nozumu was saying is that you guys don't actually KNOW what you think you know in question, you ASSUME it because it's what you believe. Now don't be flaming me because I'm clearing up what I'm trying to say.
ADDITION:
Uhh I just read the topic title again and we are REALLY going off topic.
Oh and it's written by Tom Robbins.
Oh and guys I'm not trying to press anything negative and verbal but what Nozumu was saying is that you guys don't actually KNOW what you think you know in question, you ASSUME it because it's what you believe. Now don't be flaming me because I'm clearing up what I'm trying to say.
ADDITION:
Uhh I just read the topic title again and we are REALLY going off topic.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-02-02 at 19:23:18
We know because we Witnessed it, we didn't assume or just believed in it blindly.
Oh and i think i already cleared up the fact that arrogance isnt shown by claiming you know something, but you claiming you know more than someone else; you boasting that you're better.
Reason that conclusion is made is because i've already stated that twice and was anticipating any objections that were to be made. Apparently no one disagreed so i assume you guys accepted it.
Oh and i think i already cleared up the fact that arrogance isnt shown by claiming you know something, but you claiming you know more than someone else; you boasting that you're better.
Reason that conclusion is made is because i've already stated that twice and was anticipating any objections that were to be made. Apparently no one disagreed so i assume you guys accepted it.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by cfro7211 on 2005-02-02 at 20:06:16
QUOTE(Jet_Blast54 @ Jan 31 2005, 05:57 PM)
Some Christians can be off the top for thier religion, some can be normal people, and some can be despiseful of parts of thier own religion, it gets confusing to tell the truth.
despiseful of parts of thier own religion? wtf?
anyways, i believe that as a Christian, and a strong believer in the faith, that God calls us to be "off the top" for out religion.
and if you dont understand that, you dont understand christianity.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-02-02 at 20:08:54
QUOTE(cfro7211 @ Feb 2 2005, 07:06 PM)
despiseful of parts of thier own religion? wtf?
anyways, i believe that as a Christian, and a strong believer in the faith, that God calls us to be "off the top" for out religion.
and if you dont understand that, you dont understand christianity.
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anyways, i believe that as a Christian, and a strong believer in the faith, that God calls us to be "off the top" for out religion.
and if you dont understand that, you dont understand christianity.
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Yea, but the thing is, most people dont understand christianity, and never will.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by cfro7211 on 2005-02-02 at 20:17:20
QUOTE(MillenniumArmy @ Feb 2 2005, 06:08 PM)
Yea, but the thing is, most people dont understand christianity, and never will.
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unfortunately...
and theres debate over whether some where not supposed to, in God's perfect plan, to ever follow the path of righteousness.
Take Pharaoh from the Old Testament book of Exodus. He is referenced in Romans 9--God says he used Pharaoh to glorfy Himself, thought Pharaohs destruction. Also, the fact that Pharaoh faced considerable evidence that the God of Israel is the One True God(the plagues)--and hardened his heart even so--is proof that some people will never learn nor believe.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Wolf on 2005-02-02 at 20:36:26
"To be honest, I hate the repetitive religon topics in this forum. However, my western civ teacher made a good point today. He said that during his time, the two most destructive forces were capitalism and communism. Now, he says, it's religon and nationalism. I must say I agree with him. Anyways, as such, I hope that is enough of a reason for me to open this thread.
I noticed in quite a bit of the religous arguements, one of the statements against christians were that they were stereotypical, hypocritical, superficial or/and egotistical.
I was just wondering what your thoughts on christians are. Seriously. Please do not flame, but you know...if you have any questions that just didn't come up in other topics ask about it here. Not to say I have all the answers, but I could check into it." -FireKame
i have 2 friends that are christians i have nothing against them, i just don't believe in god, i don't believe in a correct religous symbol(or how ever you want to put it) i'm still friends with them, thre kinda weird, but thats ok there still cool
I noticed in quite a bit of the religous arguements, one of the statements against christians were that they were stereotypical, hypocritical, superficial or/and egotistical.
I was just wondering what your thoughts on christians are. Seriously. Please do not flame, but you know...if you have any questions that just didn't come up in other topics ask about it here. Not to say I have all the answers, but I could check into it." -FireKame
i have 2 friends that are christians i have nothing against them, i just don't believe in god, i don't believe in a correct religous symbol(or how ever you want to put it) i'm still friends with them, thre kinda weird, but thats ok there still cool
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Nozomu on 2005-02-02 at 20:40:13
"Another Roadside Attraction" by Tom Robbins is one of my all-time favorite books. It's basically a fictional account of a communal group of free thinkers in the sixties. Through a complex series of events they acquire the body of Jesus Christ. From the discovery of Christ's body they are able to infer that the resurrection never happened, and they are pressed with a serious dilemma: Whether or not to bring to light the fact that Christianity's most vital selling point is false. It's an absolutely terrific book. An old girlfriend of mine read it and became a Bhuddist, renouncing her long-held faith in Christianity. Which was great for me because Bhuddists don't embrace and enforce sexual repression like Christians do 
.
If you've witnessed it, why don't you tell us about what you witnessed? Was there anything at all that you witnessed that can't be explained by modern science or coincidence? Because if not, that's not very good evidence that God exists.
.QUOTE(MilleniumArmy)
We know because we Witnessed it, we didn't assume or just believed in it blindly.
If you've witnessed it, why don't you tell us about what you witnessed? Was there anything at all that you witnessed that can't be explained by modern science or coincidence? Because if not, that's not very good evidence that God exists.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by cfro7211 on 2005-02-02 at 21:01:45
QUOTE(Nozomu @ Feb 2 2005, 06:40 PM)
"Another Roadside Attraction" by Tom Robbins is one of my all-time favorite books. It's basically a fictional account of a communal group of free thinkers in the sixties. Through a complex series of events they acquire the body of Jesus Christ. From the discovery of Christ's body they are able to infer that the resurrection never happened, and they are pressed with a serious dilemma: Whether or not to bring to light the fact that Christianity's most vital selling point is false. It's an absolutely terrific book. An old girlfriend of mine read it and became a Bhuddist, renouncing her long-held faith in Christianity. Which was great for me because Bhuddists don't embrace and enforce sexual repression like Christians do
. QUOTE(MilleniumArmy)
We know because we Witnessed it, we didn't assume or just believed in it blindly.
If you've witnessed it, why don't you tell us about what you witnessed? Was there anything at all that you witnessed that can't be explained by modern science or coincidence? Because if not, that's not very good evidence that God exists.
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Anyone who read a fictional book and renounced thier faith was never meant to be of that faith. Another Roadside Attraction seems to have something in common with The DaVinci Code--their main purpose is to renounce Christ as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Both are no doubt "terrific" books, but they offer no substanial information that will refute Christs viability as Messiah.
lol. I like this line a lot:
QUOTE(Nozomu)
If you've witnessed it, why don't you tell us about what you witnessed?
well, maybe i can provide you some insight in why i uphold Christ as my Lord and Savior.
I suffered from a major depression, and am still recovering from it. although i never cut myself, I've been suicidal, and had many times thought that God purposely wanted me to suffer. I had thought that he no longer cared for me, that he had forsaken me. I thought the whole world had turned its back on me.
My social life was struggling as was my spiritual life. yet God was good to me, and that is why i believe.
I believe, because God graced me with life, healing, and forgiveness for when I doubted him.
God has given me so many things--how could I not recognize that he gave them to me? I was given:
1. Parents who love me and support me
2. a psychiatrist who has provided me with the correct medicines and dosage amounts
3. a school counselor, therapist(2 actually, both great) pastor and youth pastor who all relate to my medical history (meaning they know what its like[everyone of them struggled with depression at one level or another, with the exclusion of my counselor]) who all cared for me and made special adjustments to help me heal
4. a good home life
5. financial security
6. new friends
7. he kept me from self medicating (drugs/alcohol)
the list goes on. There could have been so many things that could have gone wrong, but they didnt, by and only by his grace.
Thats why I believe.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kame on 2005-02-02 at 21:14:34
QUOTE(Nozomu @ Feb 2 2005, 06:40 PM)
If you've witnessed it, why don't you tell us about what you witnessed? Was there anything at all that you witnessed that can't be explained by modern science or coincidence? Because if not, that's not very good evidence that God exists.
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It's hard to explain. When I really felt God for the first time...heh. It was like I had a really warm hug, but it never stopped.
Later, I believe I have heard God's voice. Just randomly I fell asleep (it was on the bus home from Canada, I wasn't tired; I'd been sleeping for most of the day) and I heard someone talking to me, but it wasn't a human voice. It was like one thousand whispers all at once. To this day, I do not remember exactly what He said, but it had something to do with my own path.
No scientific evidence. But that's what I've witnessed. Well, directly.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by re_casper on 2005-02-02 at 22:01:34
QUOTE
If you've witnessed it, why don't you tell us about what you witnessed? Was there anything at all that you witnessed that can't be explained by modern science or coincidence? Because if not, that's not very good evidence that God exists.
Since i was a christian or went to church for a looong time... like 14 years... I dont know the difference having or not having God with you. But I can see it with my own eyes.
Christianity wants you to pursue a greater love rather then to be a bum or a computer freak with no other life.
I've gone through 1 that i can remember.
Our church was growing very big. We needed another church, however, we had too little money. Everyone was donating a lot of money. But then the S.F. Government didnt let us biuld it. At first, the judges voted 0-20. We lost before we even got there.
We prayed to our father and gave our pastors strength. For some friggin reason, when they showed up (our representatives), the judges listened. Only 1 out of 20 people voted no before we were finished. It was very amazing. We won the right to take the area to re-create the church.
We were about 20,000 dollars off. We also said that we would give the amount of money to the workers the next day. We prayed and again (if you count this) God answered and lets us be 20,000 dollars off and still start the biulding for us.
Now the church is very near finish. I thank the Lord for helping us and leading us.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Nozomu on 2005-02-03 at 03:53:20
QUOTE(cfro7211)
Anyone who read a fictional book and renounced thier faith was never meant to be of that faith. Another Roadside Attraction seems to have something in common with The DaVinci Code--their main purpose is to renounce Christ as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Wow. What an incredibly uninformed and arrogant answer. Have you ever read the book? No, because if you had you would realize that the fictional story is just a catalyst for bigger ideas. The point of the book is to make you think, not to wipe out Christianity. What a twisted way to view literature - if it made someone change their mind about something then that must have been its "purpose". When someone writes a book, they're not necessarily trying to change someone's mind. Often they just want to get their ideas out there. Comparing it to trash like The DaVinci Code just shows how ignorant you are. Here's a tip - before you make statements about a book, go out and read it. Geez! Try not to babble nonsensically and you just might be able to join this civilized debate.
Oh, wow! I just read your magical story of self-redemption. Of course your belief in God "cured" you. It had nothing to do with the fact that everyone you knew and cared about helped you get better. Duh! Only an idiot would think that people helped you, when it was obviously a supernatural force!
Don't throw your arguments for (or against) Christianity around in this topic. That's not the point of this discussion. The point of this discussion is not for you to attempt to change our minds. The point is for non-Christians like me to state the problems we have with Christians, and for you Christians to respond by justifying how the members of your faith have acted towards us. I didn't post here to read about how you were saved or whatever. I just want to know what you guys plan on doing about people like cfro7211 who talk out of their asses and give Christianity a bad name.
Sorry to sound so pissed off, but cfro7211's a perfect example of the problems present in most of the Christians that I've met. I feel like his post up there validates my arguments.