Staredit Network

So, since we know that the universe hasn't always existed, we can say that God hasn't always existed?

We dont' know that. Also, try researching unknown terms or phrases. In this case, it would be Occam's Razor.

If you're too lazy to do that, it means to be as simple as possible, but not simpler.

I've tried to look into Ocaam's Razor, but all I've gotten out of it is something that can support both Christianity and Athieism; it's a matter of perspective. It appears that Christians don't use the term as often as athiest, although Protestantism's basis is very simple:

God is.
Jesus is God's Son
The Holy Spirit Guides Us.
Baptisim is needed to enter heaven.



Meh. No one can explain sans the guy who said it.

Wow, did you just learn what that meant in your philosophy class and now you have to repeat it to everyone you know? Thanks for the criticism, but I already know what Occam's Razor is. The way you applied it doesn't make much sense unless you want to explain to us what you were trying to say.

If you know what it is, then you certainly should have no trouble applying it.

Why bother say God exists if it's not necessary? I know this isn't a real arguement, but I was just some what explaining


Stop trying to make a personal attack.


Then why bother learning at all? I can pray to god all day for the next 50 years and he still won't tell me the next lottery numbers.


Let's say I offered you one million dollars. Would you take it or not take it? Remember, you don't know if I'm Satan or not, and if you want to, you can pray to god for him to tell you, but the offer is only going to last so long.

Occam's Razor is used to explain stuff like this: A book falls off a table and one person claims that a ghost pushed it off and the other says it's because the table is slanted. Occam's Razor states that the person who said the table is slanted is most likely correct because that explanation only requires a slanted table, while the other explanation requires that ghosts exist, ghosts can touch things tangibly, etc.

When you say that God has existed forever + Occam's Razor = Universe has existed forever*, I just don't see where you are getting that from.

*And as far as we know the universe has not existed forever. This is based on our scientific knowledge, not a questionable book of questionable origin.

Stop spamming. Get on topic. This is about christianity contradicting itself, not ethical issues concerning taking money from satan or why God doesn't give you winning lottery numbers.

ya so an intelligent person can use a computer intelligently and a dumb person would make the computer dumb. That is where i geuss your teacher got his/her idea of this. But that is not always true.
If a person with straight "A"s and was accepted by every school married another of the same type. And they have children. In the enviroment the Children will be well but probably not as good as the parents. But if the child rebels then (s)he is not intelligent.

But if God was there just somehow he was there since the beginning of time, then ya. Even scientists ponder on what made the universe. So how should a kid or idiot like me know how was God made.

And you still haven't said how knowing what someone will do is choosing what he will do.
As I have said before, if I had a son and knew he were to lie to me about something, because I know him well enough, then he'll lie to me. If I didn't know, he'd have lied to me anyways. It doesn't matter if I know or not, he would have done it.


No. An idiot won't make a sentient computer. An intelligent one might.

They are not 'making' the child. The child makes himself. It's like Faith leading a Christian. Faith springs from Goodiness: It leads to Goodiness: It does not force Goodiness. As I understand it, atleast.

And what does intelligence have to do with whether someone rebels or not? If someone rebels, it may be because his parents are idiots. Grades do not reflect upon intelligence, they reflect upon the ability to do repetitive, mind-numbing schoolwork.

If he is all powerful and all knowing then it is under his power what we do. If God knew that Adam and Eve would eat the forbidden fruit, then why did he punish them? And why didn't he just make them not capable of obtaining getting it in the first place?

Think about this. Imaging that you were omnipotent and omniscient and asked me to choose between the red pill and the blue pill. If you KNEW that I would choose the red pill and you told me so, what would stop me from then choosing the blue pill.

God does tell us when we're doing the wrong thing, people refuse to listen.

Well, okay. Now I specifically mean you FireKame.

How does God talk to you? I mean, if you can prove God is actually talking to you, you could be a million dollars richer. http://www.randi.org/

But you see, the thing is, the hypothetical Omniescent/potent me-entity won't tell you. And supposing I do tell you, then that means that I know that you would pick the blue one just to defy me. And your logic would tell you that you should therefore pick the red one because, even though I know it's the right one, I know it won't, and so I'll still be wrong. But in the end, I know which one you really will choose, it's just that it;s impossible for me to tell you.

It's under his power to choose.
He doesn't necesarily excersize it in such ways.
I have the power to crush an ant and decide whether it'll live or die for 10 more seconds. I know it shall live. That doesn't mean that, if I have something against life, I shouldn't punish it, since it's still living and hasn't commited suicide.


Key-word there: prove. It's supposedly impossible.

"pi" + Occam's Razor = "3" I love fallacies.
God is a personal force (choosing to make us come into existence). So, God makes us, but does not want us to be forced to obey him. He sees that as insensitive and cruel, so he gave us free choice. But of course "because he knows 'everything' he already knows what we are going to do." WRONG! You must be thinking of a simple yes-no, where God just knows you're gonna pick yes or no. This world is full of multibillion-chained complex occurences. By definition of free will, God cannot "know" what we choose, but he knows every possibility for every possible chain reaction that occurs for every free will choice that exists that was affected by free will in the past and so forth. God of course, can influence people (not force them) to a better choice, or for other means. I mean, Christians constantly talk about demon influence, so why can't God do the same?

"But wait" the atheist rebuttals, (you're welcome Nozomu) "you just said that by definition God can't know our decision, but by definition God knows everything!!! This is contradictory, proving that God can't exist!" Not true.

Many of you probably wondered about this other paradox: Christians claim that Jesus is God, but Jesus calls God his "Father"; thats contradictory too! No, no, no. We must resort to the Trinity. Jesus was the same as God, but by coming to earth, Jesus became fully human, but still fully God. By becoming fully human, Jesus subordinated himself to God, making God his "superior"; not superior by talent, but more as in Jesus made himself "inferior"(humanity is finite, God is infinite: therefore, Jesus gave up a few rights as God when becoming human) for our souls.

Just in the same way, God "subordinated" himself to us such that he cannot peer into our future we "choose". To be truthful, my belief is that God actually invented a "barrier" around us, giving us free choice.

Now for the actual TOPIC of this thread!!! I have not yet seen the Bible contradict itself. It is funny how atheists pick at the tiny errors. They basically go like this: "WE FOUND 0.02% DISREPENCY IN THE BIBLE; THEREFORE, IT IS NOT RELIABLE!!"
1) The Jews, who were craftsmen in copying things down perfectly, did not mass produce the Bible. The Gentiles did.
2) The Bible is the most reliable (might be a book of myths and fairy tales, but is accurate to the original manuscript) book that has every existed. The only one that has even barely a foot in the door is Homer's Iliad. The books of the New Testament were made within about 100 years of Jesus's death. Copies of Homer's Iliad came about 600 years after the original if my memory serves me well. Oh how the time passes us by.

I, myself is an atheist but is also intrigued about the bible itself. My Christain Education teacher at school says that the Bible is a book that we do not read 'literally', like picking at things on the surface that does not chain up for make sense. She says its the message that lies within it that we obtain that is important. I also think that for me, the bible is a book that is perhaps a guidance or reference for me. Even though I don't believe in it, its still good to read what other people's perspectives are and also because some things in the bible do teach us to be a good person.

Anyway, back to the topic. The most recent reason why people believe the bible is not reliable is the fact that they think the bible said that God is omnipotent, which means he is all powerful and can do anything. Therefore, the logical assumptioin an atheist would make is that if there is something God cannot do, the bible must have contradicted itself.

However, I did some research on this stuff and came across a few wesbites and they all addressed this 'contradiction'. In summary, they conclude that the bible has never stated that God is omnipotent, or there is no message conveyed that he is omnipotent. It did say he is the almighty, but in fact there are things that God cannot do, which proves the omnipotent theory wrong. Here are the things God cannot do
1. God cannot commit a sin
2. God cannot lie
3. God cannot do something that go against his holy character

Therefore, biblical omnipotence does not mean that God can do all things. God cannot do anything that is contrary to His holy character. However, God can do anything that He determines to do. This is a true meaning of omnipotence - the ability to do anything that one sets out to do.

Another example of how you can say one thing and every Christian will give a different contradictory response. Perhaps Christians are more contradictory than Christianity?


Omnipotence is by the definition is, as far as we know, impossible. If God is omnipotent then can he create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?

Jesus can't be god since there is no god. ha.
Popes cant have sex -> if we all follow the bible we all die.
God's a decent book charrecter but he's not real, he IS a useless book charrecter.

fully offensive

Proof? A relationship with Jesus isn't based on proof; it is based on faith. That is the main seperation between athieism and christianity, especially on this forum. Go check out some of the other topics (unfortunately locked now due to lack of use) and see those arguments.

I think there is a god and hes not just a book character. Oh ya Lisk, Bite me. hahaha

I'm glad our national defense isn't based on faith.
I'm glad our doctors don't operate on faith.
I'm glad banks don't give out a loan with just faith you'll pay it back.
I'm glad medicines aren't manufactured with faith that they'll just work.
I'm glad traffic lights just don't change randomly with faith in the drivers.
I'm glad airplanes don't fly in the air with faith that they won't collide.
I'm glad that we don't seek answers to the creation of our universe with just faith. Oh wait...

Those are all earthly. Different plain of reality as far as God is concerned, remember? But this conversation isn't about faith vs. logic, it's about how christianity contradicts itself. *points to other spammers as well*

Lisk: If you don't follow the Bible, you still die. That's the funny thing about being mortal.

Oh my gosh, I didn't read EVERYTHING because all posts are so stinkin' long. And I already know what's going to be asked pretty much, and the reply.

FireKame, are you a Christian, a believer?
It appears you are defending it, and indeed are, but I don't want to jump to conclusions, however obvious it may be.

Perhaps you are a BIble Scholar or just "study" it a lot. Like me.

I'm no "master" heck I don't even know where John3:16 is ;op - But maybe I can give you a hand out here with these non-believers, or at least encourage you.
You seem AWESOME so far.

YES, on SEN I don't present myself as a Christian should, but does that make me bad? How many Christians DO Present themselves as they should?
Most don't... so I apologise, regardless for my actions here on SEN.

Let more questions roll!

ADDITION:
It is not my intention to forcably convert anyone. To be honest, if ANYONE followed what they believed, they WOULD want to convert them, just as I do. However, it's not within my rights to force anyone to believe anything. To each his own, we will find who is right in the end.

I believe what I believe, is what makes me what I am...

Yes so am i. But dont you use faith on something you do not understand? Say like if your friend is a lot better at math then you are, you do not understand something, wont you go and ask the person and believe him/her that they are right?

And also U.S. constitution is based on Christian Faith or something similar (Cathlic, Christian-like)

I got a question.
I am a firm believer and nothing will change my mind in my Lord God, but heck maybe another believer can explain to me...

In the story of Cain and Abel, why was Cain's offering looked down upon?

I think I know what your reply will be... but I re-read it and I can't find the explanation for the answer I think you'll give me.

Noooo! Having faith in something you don't understand is a terrible idea. If everybody thought that way we would still believe the Earth was flat. Better to have faith in something you understand completely than to have faith in something you don't understand at all. The whole point is that we need to come to scientific, logical conclusions on things we don't understand, so that in the future we do understand them.


The US constitution is NOT based on any type of Christianity (Catholicisim, etc.). In fact most, maybe all, of the founding fathers were not Christians. They were Deists, those who believe in a god of nature, reason, and logic. Not the Christian god of faith and revelation. The three main influences on the Constitution were the Magna Carta, Articles of Confederation, and the Greco-Roman ideas of democracy.