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Think about it for a second. The Commandments state pretty clearly God doesn't want any other Gods before him, and he doesn't want a symbol to be worshipped. Now, think about this: Jesus is considered a God in Christianity, to atleast a certain extent, and the cross is pretty much a graven image. It's in places of worship, people wear it around, people put it in all manner of things as a representation of Godliness. Also, the cross is considered very sacred, I mean, if people thought of the cross like they thought of, say, the letter G, then the scene in the Exorcist where the girl puts the cross, eh, you know where, wouldn't have even been in it. Seriously, a girl playing with herself might've seemed demonic... in 1856. But if she uses a cross, well, people'll are bound to get a little uneasy.

Jesus is not considered a God. He is God.
God manifests himself in different ways, also called the trinity:
God the Father
Jesus the Son
The Holy Spirit.
Next...

The Cross is a graven image? Come now people. It's a reminder of what Jesus did for us. The Cross is not the only sign for christianity, just the best. Personally, I wear a spike. The Cross is a symbol of why we are christians, nothing more, though I will agree some people take it a step farther.

Are those the best arguments you got against christianity?

The gospels contradict each other, because they were from the perspectives of different people. The bible is not simply one story, it multiple versions written by multiple people, each version influenced by the writers personal veiws and beliefs.

Why did jesus announce that "I have come in my Father’s name" (John 5:43). If you believe in the trinity, then you believe that Jesus and YHWH (god) are one and the same. If that were true he would have come in the name of himself. In that time period, nobody came in the name of themselves. It would be like saying you have authority given to you by yourself. He was an egotistical bastard, (no offence) but there is really little reason why they would not have killed him. This given, how did he "die for our sins," he was simply telling people the idea that kings were not all powerfull, that anyone could give themselves authority. He was not a massiah, as the story has been twisted into, but simply a man with a great idea.

heard of the verse "I Am"...?
It's rather famous. By saying that he proclaimed himself God, since the only I Am is God.

And as I said. There are three manifestations of him. God decided to send one down to us, and lacking a better name, he said Father.


I do take offense to that, and I'd call you some mean names if I wasn't so mellowed out right now. If you had said that too my face you'd be in a world of hurt

This topic is annoying me.
Your arguments are too faulty for even I to debate with you against...because you are putting point and point against youself.

Three more posts, and the topic is closed unless something new is stated.

Nj Firekame!! i copletely agree with fk. god has 3 parts, and he sent one down. and when god said "do not worship idols, or any other false god." i beleive he was reffering to things not connected to him.

also, different types of christianity have different beleifs, like catholics think that mary is the saviour, and some jews (or muslims??) beleive that jesus was just a prophet and not god's one and only son.

but seriously, you've got nothing. if you'd read parts of the bible that state the things your talking about, you'd know you've got no point at all.

i hate when people start ranting and mouthing off against things they dont even know..

plz dont start up another thread like this without a *proper* meaning behind it...

What about God's apparent surprise when Cain killed his brother... Abel was it? Wouldn't He have known about it forever? And what about Satan's treachery? What about every sin? He knew that we would do it, but yet he punishes us.

How about the Ten Commandments? Is God above His own rules? Thou shalt not kill. I suppose that only goes for weak underling humans, as God rained fire and created a monstrous flood.

The idea of god is very contridicting because there are so many faulty loops when someone says god is invincible and all-knowing.

The simple problem is, they deny everything and say god is beyond us and we can't understand him.

Ad Hoc Fallacy. I could present the same explanation to why my oven is warm. It's obvious a fire breathing dragon came and warmed it up. How else could it be warm?



Getting a little aggressive eh?

yea. He's above the rules.
*I can't believe I'm making this analogy*
It's like an admin. Yoshi made the rules, and it assumed that he will follow them, unless there is some outstanding reason to do otherwise.

Let's say Yoshi had a friend who had helped him build the site, and they both were very proud of the site. They shared a special bond like brothers but deeper. Not gay or anything, they were just very close, and it was very clear that this friend was Yoshi's favorite. However, his friend grew jealous and tried to kick Yoshi out. Yoshi, being root admin banned him, like Satan and his fallen angels.

If there was a mass revolt against him, they'd probably scrap the whole site and start over, but this time allow us a little more freedom (for better or worse) like adam and eve left the garden of eden.

Yoshi wouldn't be too terribly happy, probably depressed that his utopian society was destroyed, and he'd probably be wrathful and change how he ran things. Then these two idiots get in a fight that was totally unpresidented. However, he couldn't interfere too much beyond telling them what is right (he couldn't influence them directly) and so one ended up hacking the other's account and doing away with him forever. The one that did the hacking was banned, and the other was never heard from again, like Cain and Abel.

Afterwards, things went well without many hitches; parties were eliminated as needed, and Yoshi was pretty nice and lenient in his punishment accept in extreme cases. The entire site saw this, and took advantage of it doing whatever the hell they wanted to. Yoshi got some followers together who did as they were supposed to and said "listen up. I'm going to start all over, give me a month and a half and the site will rock." So they left, and everyone else was deleted. They came back and started over, like Noah and the Flood.

weeee that was almost fun.

Very nice. Problems with that is Yoshi did not know that would happen. If he did, he would have banned everyone anyway.

CheeZe = too fast at reading yo

ok Im with firekame totally here, but the trinity is: God of the Father, God of the Son, and the holy spirit (I believe/think) I got to go back to the text and reread it, but it really doesn't matter becuase we are on the same page here. I believe also the Jesus wasn't god, he was just PART of god, our father, hence he "sat at the right hand of the father" after his death.

With Felagund: If god granted everything that every one wanted then evil people would get what they want too, plus I believe that most deaths were the cause of the devil and his acts/influence opon us. Remember that there is a constant war with God vrs Satan. So deaths aren't always God's decision, they are acts of the devil.

I am a Catholic and if I remember correctly Mary is very Important to us but I don't beleive we called her a saviour (I could be wrong, again I ahould go back to the text and read) and Jesus was the saviour. But it really doesn't matter becuase we are on the same page here hahaha.

Rantent: Its actually Yahweh for gods name. Jesus didn't say Kings weren't powerful and all, he preached that you don't have to do curtian things for god to love you, i.e. wash yourself before you enter a temple (you don't ahve to do that he said). The story twisted into??? hahaha.

YHWH is the spelling it is pronounced Yahweh.
I'm sorry if I had upset any of you earlier.
Throughout history kings have been promoting themselves to gods. (When pharoah's died they attained godly status.) Your right it wasn't Jesus who promoted the idea that kings were not all powerfull, the jewish religion was the first to challenge that claim. One of the main reasons they were prosecuted was because they brought their god with them.

There's many lists online of Biblical and Christian contradictions. A few problems/contradictions off the top of my head are:

1. If Satan is evil, why does he punish those who are bad?
2. If God is all knowing and all powerful then we don't have free will. And if we don't have free will, Heaven and Hell is unnecessary.
3. If it took God six days to create the Earth and one more to rest, and there are hundreds of billions or more planets, it would have taken God definately longer than 6,000 or even 14.6 billion years to make every planet.
4. If you ask most Creationists if they believe in dinosaurs they will answer "yes". This contradicts their religion, which says the Earth was created approximately 6,000 years ago.

1. He doesn't punish them; God does.
2. 'knowing' something is a term humans apply to God; God is outside our comprehension, he might as well know nothing and everything all at once.
3 and 4:
There are different forms of creationism concerning the dinosaurs and length of time it took God to make the world. Was it Earth that was created 6,000 years ago, or Eden? Hmmmm? Eden existed outside of Earth, and when Adam and Eve were banished from the garden there was already stuff outside, meaning the Earth would've already been around. I'd like to know where you got this 6,000 year old idea from as well.

1. Define good or bad.

2. Refer to my Ad Hoc Fallacy explanation.

What you're saying is not an arguement for number 2.

3... and rest: I don't care

Hypothetical Situation: I have a kid. I live with him for 16 years, and he's consistant, intelligent, and communicative. At that point, I can tell what he's going to do. If, however, he does somehting he's not supposed to do, and doesn't know that I know, and I know he's going to lie about it because that's the kind of person he is, he will still be punished. Knowledge of one's sins has nothing to do with reaction.

As for the Ten Commandments...
So the people that hunt food, and pick crops are going to go to Hell because they sustained us?
I don't see how that's fair. That's like turning half the population into Jesus'; suffering for the good of others. Unless God means that only humans count as living creatures. In which case, it should be okay to torture anything except humans. Those other things are unfeeling golems created for no reason other then to feed us, even though they will kill and evade us, and often be impractical for eating.

Then what does Satan do and what is Hell for?


When it suits your purpose you know everything about God and when it doesn't, he's too complicated for humans to understand. And when I say "you" I don't mean you specifically FireKame.


Answering a question with a question isn't answering the question. Here's where 6,000 years comes from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_Creationist
The defining characteristic of Young Earth Creationism is their belief that the Earth is "young", on the order of 6,000 to 10,000 years old, rather than the age of 4.5 billion years as determined by a variety of scientific methods including radiometric dating. The Young Earth Creationist range of figures is arrived at using the ages given in the genealogies and other dates in the Bible, similar to the process used by Archbishop James Ussher when he dated creation at 4004 BC.

Satan tortures people. For the hell of it, because he likes to.
Hell is his lair.
That's what I understand, I'm not a Christian.

Christianity doesn't contradict itself. It only contradicts the beliefs of others.

To tempt humans.



Any by applying the term "You" you stereotype the rest of us.


I wasn't answering the question; I was asking for clarification.
This forum isn't dedicated to debate alone, or else it would be called "Serious Debate" not "Serious Discussion." I have trouble debating against something I don't know anything about.

1. He doesnt punish them he rewards them with punishment. or if saten finds liking in me, he gives me something i like. God destroys it. now u cant blame saten for destroying your "toy"

2. We do have free will though. It is harder then you think. U think u are suppose to do this, but u do that, but then u think again then do this. Every passing second, God knows what you are doing. Sometimes he stops or speeds u up, or he doesnt interfere. God knows , if he knows, do you know that God knows that you know? It gets complicated. God knows your needs and will supply them but he will not supply things you dont need.

3. He creaeted the Universe before he created Earth. Read the first verse.

4. but if dinosours lived in the past 7000 years and still live now. We do have information that dinosuars still live today. They dont have to be "dead" by the end of the century.

idsa, I don't get half the stuff you said.
1. Satan rewards people with punishment...?
2. The point was that if God knows everything, then we aren't actually making our own decisions since he already knows what we will choose.
3. It would still take an impossible amount of time.
4. Dinosaurs haven't been around in the last 7,000 years and surely aren't alive today. Dinosaurs lived millions of years ago.

Let me just say this; every Christian believes different things and interprets the Bible in different ways. I can ask a question and get four different conflicting answers. So when I make an assumption about a Christian's beliefs I am going with what the majority of Christians believe. That is why I thought you would believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old as a lot of Christians believe that.

1. Yep, he also rules over evil, so for your reward and his joy he punishes you.
2. (sounds like something out of the matrix) Just becuase he knows doesn't meen he decides for you. By saying that, he doesn't know what you would do a week from now, but right when you make a decesion he will know before you.
3. God doesn't deal with our time, for him it could have been a single breathe or heart beat to make the universe, impossible for us but not for him.
4.ok what ever

ok well..

God does punish people, but satan is there just simply because hes there. just to contradict god. people might like the ways of god, therefore *leaving* his ways (or not to start following his ways) and the only other place to go is to satan. simple.

God knows everything! Everything!! he knows whats going to happen in 13 years. he knows whats going to happen this exact day next year. he knows if youre going to choose chocolate or icecream. knowing this in no way means he influences it.
he knows the choice and doesnt MAKE you choose it!!

YHWH is the spelling but yahweh is how we think its pronounced. now, in those times it was a sacred thing to even say the name of the lord. so, for that reason they never wrote it in the bible correctly. because it was a sacred thing.

its the same thing with jehovah. that is a direct interpretation from hebrew which means nothing. me saying jehovah in hebrew is like saying lszfujghlfjgn in english. it has no meaning.

That is the bloody most true thing that has been said on this subject at all.





that is the second most true thing that has been said on this subject.


the 3rd most true.



not completely true, infact, not very true at all. satan gives things to people to tempt them. to get them away from god, persay, like a car. satan will give you a car and no bills and a house all for free, but after a while, because he is satan he will just slaughter you.

just because hes satan and hes evil doesnt mean he has to be nice to other evil people.

satan has no fellow freinds (except for maybe demons)

Hell is not satans lair. hell was created by god for when the end of the world comes, so he can banish all those without jesus (god) to hell so theyre not going to heaven.

satan is not, bringing you to his side, he is taking you down with him. when all those without jesus are banished to hell, so will satan, hes gonna go to hell, he knows it. so he wants to stop as many people as he can from reaching heaven...


cooking dinner now. see you guys later..

Ok here's something I've always had a question about and it's about a statement that a Christian teacher at my school said to us before trying to convert me.

"Only intelligent life can make intelligent life"

So if God is intelligent life something made him.... And soforth and soforth.

Please explain this.

"God Always Existed" + Occam's Razor = "The Universe Always Existed"

Strange how no one even bothers replying to my post.