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Staredit Network -> Serious Discussion -> Good, but not religious.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by TheDaddy0420 on 2005-03-13 at 18:49:41

QUOTE(l)ark2004 @ Mar 13 2005, 03:42 PM)

Could you please tell me one reason The Crusades were a good cause for Christianity?

BTW: Why won't the Vatican (or whoever) release the sacred scrolls that supposedly prove gods existence.

If there was such a entity, they would have made those scrolls publice long ago. But, if there is a God, why would they hide it?
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Not every single person in any religion is a good person. The head of the Church during the middle ages ordered for the crusades to happen, not god. And it was not only good for christians but good for most of europe becuase soldiers who went to the holy land and came back with pillage brought back culture too. They brought back slaves and gold and dishes and cupps and lots of stuff. European culture mixed with middle eastern culture (holy land culture? Muslim culture? Jewish culture?). which is why You can see building designs in europe that are very similar to building designs in the holy land.

ADDITION:

QUOTE(CaptainWill @ Mar 13 2005, 03:45 PM)

The Bible was written over hundreds of years. The books coincide because people copied ideas from one another when they wrote them.

I can't put my argument in any more simple terms...but Exodus, right?

In Exodus, God tells Adam and Eve not to eat fruit from the tree of knowledge.
When they do eat from the tree, they are no longer ignorant of the way everything around them works. Before then, they have no concept of morality, no curiosity. They are not sentient.

God then throws them out of Eden, the 'garden of ignorance.'

By analysing this, I came to the conclusion that God and Christianity encourage the suppression of intelligent thought.

ADDITION:
Some Christians would disagree with you. The way that indecisiveman puts it, you'd think it was binding. He mentions that drinking alcohol is a sin at one point.
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I do believe it was the snake (devil) who told Eve to take an apple and eat it, and god probably had other reasons for them not to eat the apples. How do you know he wasn't planning something else like creating more people and then letting every one eat apples? You can't just assume God said don't eat the apples just becuase I said so. God, as we know him/her/it is an enity that is far greater then any of us, we only picture god as a human figure becuase we don't know what god looks like.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by indecisiveman on 2005-03-13 at 18:55:22

So tired but I must keep on keeping on.

Ok umm where to start. Uhh Dark, I believe the Vatican has to do with Catholicism?(this is how tired I am) Well I am Christian not Catholic(there are HUGE differences regardless of what anyone says) so I don't know why they are keeping it back. I actually have never heard of anything like that but oh well. CaptainWill, drinking is a sin in the sense that(I am sorry I can't provide a scripture) in the Bible God says do not harm your body in any way. Something to that effect. Once again I am sorry I am too lazy to go look it up. So by drinking you are affecting your body, making it unhealthy(as it is with smoking, inflicting pain on yourself, etc.). And CaptainWill, if you are into science you should know that they have "facts"(theres that word again

) that prove the Bible was written in the time period of Jesus. And he didn't live to be 200 years old.

Anyways, my point is he told them what to write.(well you can argue God did but they are one in the same) and so I don't know about you but unless we have some super smart better than shakespeare writer, it must be form a Higher Being. And one last thing, He did not throw them out because they knew too much.(if that is what you are saying) He threw them out because they disobeyed Him. He specifically said NOT to eat form that certain tree, yet they did. SO hope that gives you a bit more insight. Once again sorry if I am typing a little off or my facts are wrong I am just so tired.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by CaptainWill on 2005-03-13 at 18:56:36

God didn't exactly punish the snake did he?

God: 'You, snake, shall crawl on your belly for evermore!'
Snake: 'Oh noes, I used to be able to fly!' <whisper> 'Sucker.'

Sorry - off topic.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Nozomu on 2005-03-13 at 18:58:26

Actually, we supposedly know what God looks like because we were made in His image. Just to clarify.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by TheDaddy0420 on 2005-03-13 at 19:02:23

QUOTE(Nozomu @ Mar 13 2005, 03:58 PM)

Actually, we supposedly know what God looks like because we were made in His image. Just to clarify.
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ohhh yaaaa, or was it Jesus who was born in God's image. We all know Jesus is the son of God and sits at the right hand of the father (god). And I do believe the bible was created by many people, the christainity part was written/completed AFTER Jesus's death.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by indecisiveman on 2005-03-13 at 19:05:08

CaptainWill, just pretending you were in the least bit serious(which you weren't

) NO God did not punish the snake because the snake is the Devil. Anyways, Nozumo what does God's features have to do with this topic? And what does it clarify? And God does NOT have "features" He is a spirit. So I am not sure if that was a stab at Christians, if you are just tired like me, or if your facts are just wrong, but God is not tangible(think that means being able to be touched I can't think oh my gosh). And one last thing. Who said we were made in His image? Because if we were we would all be(insert your opinion of a spiritual being).

Report, edit, etc...Posted by CaptainWill on 2005-03-13 at 19:11:50

QUOTE(indecisiveman @ Mar 13 2005, 11:55 PM)

So tired but I must keep on keeping on.

) that prove the Bible was written in the time period of Jesus. And he didn't live to be 200 years old.

Ok, I take it that you're talking New Testament here.

What about all the lost scriptures then? The Dead Sea Scrolls are a good example - they contain gospels according to many other disciples. None of them refer to Jesus as the Son of God. Only the gospels that made it into the NT mention Jesus as the Son of God.

The NT was compiled by Emperor Constantine and the Christian high council, in order to quell religious unrest amongst the Romans (they weren't too keen on Christianity).

It was decided by this group of compilers that the NT should refer to Jesus as the Son of God, as it would deify him and shut up the Romans who were arguing that they would not follow Christianity as Jesus wasn't a god. Many Christians at the time said 'WTF? Jesus wasn't the son of God!'
They included it in the NT anyway, for the political reasons I mentioned.

ADDITION:

QUOTE(indecisiveman @ Mar 14 2005, 12:05 AM)

CaptainWill, just pretending you were in the least bit serious(which you weren't

I thought the Devil was Lucifer. Also, I don't think that Lucifer had fallen and become the Devil at this time. The snake was just having a joke with God, I reckon.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by indecisiveman on 2005-03-13 at 19:22:00

Oh gosh, ok umm. No I was talking about the whole Bible in general. If you read the Bible the disciples KNEW he was the Son of God. So why would they then turn around and say he wasn't? And the Lost Scroll or whatever, I don't remember everything about that but I am pretty sure I didn't believe it was true when I DID hear about it. Err I just read your addition. No Lucifer(the devil) was the snake(or serpent). He was the one who tempted Eve and Cain in the first place. And umm, how would a snake "have a joke" with God? The whole point to God creating the earth was to test rather or not we would follow him or commit sins against him. So he needed someone else to be the "evil" person, so to speak. The thing that caused this was when Lucifer(the devil) was cast down into hell. That is when God made Adam and Eve. And then the devil tried to tempt Adam and Eve by giving them thoughts about what the fruit of that tree would do for them. Also, the New Testament was just put together by Constantine. How did the disciples right it after they had died? The disciples that are in the New Testament all lived in the time of Jesus. It was just never put INTO the Bible until later on.

Edit#1: Oh my gosh. I just realised I put Eve and Cain. Gosh,

I meant Adam and Eve sorry.(I'm so sleepy...)

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Nozomu on 2005-03-13 at 20:32:53

How can God be omniscient if He didn't know whether or not man would choose to obey His rules? If He was all-powerful, He wouldn't have needed a test, he would already know the outcome. So by that logic, God is fallible. The idea of the infallibility of God also casts some interesting shadows on the issue of free will, but that's a whole different can o' worms.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by TheDaddy0420 on 2005-03-13 at 21:11:07

QUOTE(Nozomu @ Mar 13 2005, 05:32 PM)

Maybe it was just his whole plan

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kame on 2005-03-13 at 21:11:36

I took a short nap and so much of it's own accord.

QUOTE(CaptainWill @ Mar 13 2005, 04:24 PM)

I gave an example. I used Exodus, for crying out loud! I thought that you might understand it better if I used a Biblical example of how Christianity suppresses free thought.

Here's my argument in its most simple form:

- God wants us to be ignorant, obedient servants.
- I don't like that.
- I don't want to be a part of something that I don't like.
- I don't think that it's fair for me to 'go to hell' just for that.

How did you question your faith, by the way, and what made you sure that it was correct?
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It's not Exodus, it's Genisis. Eve is in Genesis, like the third chapter or something
loller

QUOTE(iamacow)

What about, Joe, Jim's neighbor who is a devout christian, who believes everything about christianity, but has been a jerk his whole life and has commited a few crimes. According to the 2nd post in this thread, there is going to be a "bad" person in heaven, with all the "good" people. ""= subject to opinion.

If he repents, he's going to heaven. period.

QUOTE(Captain Will)

Have you never questioned your faith? I know it's off topic, but I was just wondering.

....

How did you question your faith, by the way, and what made you sure that it was correct?

Yes, I was a wiccan for a few years, and I regularly ask my pastor questions that I can't find answers to. Wiccan didn't work out for me; I had trouble believing in more than one God figure, or that there were power in tarot cards. I also wasn't very devout.

QUOTE(Captain Will)

As you can see from this parallel of Exodus, one of Christianity's basic principles is to suppress free thought and independent attempts at explaining life's mysteries.

*is tempted to yell Genesis again*

QUOTE

- God wants us to be ignorant, obedient servants.
- I don't like that.
- I don't want to be a part of something that I don't like.
- I don't think that it's fair for me to 'go to hell' just for that

You don't want to be part of the religon, right? So just be ignorant about going to hell and it's all good.

QUOTE(|)ark2004)

Could you please tell me one reason The Crusades were a good cause for Christianity?

A common enemy strengthened the bonds between the peasents and the church, creating stability in an era that badly needed it.

QUOTE(CaptainWill)

In Exodus, God tells Adam and Eve not to eat fruit from the tree of knowledge.
When they do eat from the tree, they are no longer ignorant of the way everything around them works. Before then, they have no concept of morality, no curiosity. They are not sentient.

indecisiveman! Milleniumarmy! I'm ashamed you let this go on so long! It's not in exodus! it's in Genesis! Three times...

QUOTE

Some Christians would disagree with you. The way that indecisiveman puts it, you'd think it was binding. He mentions that drinking alcohol is a sin at one point.

have you ever been to a passover feast? that's pretty much all it is...drinking...

QUOTE(Nozomu)

Actually, we supposedly know what God looks like because we were made in His image. Just to clarify.

Everything is God, at least that's what I believe. Every tree, person, and thing is a temple of God and made in his image.

QUOTE(Nozomu)

How can God be omniscient if He didn't know whether or not man would choose to obey His rules?

This might have been directed at something specific said...but I'll take a wack at it.
I might have mentioned this in some other thread, but one more for the road.
It is my belief that since God lives outside of time, he can see all at once the past present and future. However it is a different interpretation of what we believe it to be. Anyways, there are more than one paths for the future that any one person can go down; so he can see them all at once. Sense?

Report, edit, etc...Posted by SpaceBoy2000 on 2005-03-13 at 21:33:56

QUOTE(indecisiveman @ Mar 13 2005, 05:28 PM)

The way I see it CaptainWill is that they believe in a single entity who controls the earth. Not a God. I think of God as Jesus, whereas they think of a person who governs everything around us. So in that sense we are different for them(besides a lot of other things in the Bible).
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If Jesus is the Son of God, it wouldn't make sense for him to be God as well. So therefore, that means that Jesus and God exists. Now, isn't the first commandment "Thou shalt have none other gods before me."? Christians worship Jesus as their Lord, but would that be placing Jesus before God, and therefore committing a sin?

Report, edit, etc...Posted by TheDaddy0420 on 2005-03-13 at 21:47:20

QUOTE(SpaceBoy2000 @ Mar 13 2005, 06:33 PM)

On the "drinking is a sin" issue, Jesus's first miracle was turning water into wine at a wedding when the wine ran out. So isn't Jesus condoning the use of wine, at the very least at weddings?

Sorry, a bit off topic, but I felt like pointing it out.

Anyways, I have a friend, who's an atheist. One of his reasons is, "I refuse to believe in God if he condemns me to hell if I don't believe in him." I just found this...amusing.
Another thing that I found a bit confusing is that some Christians consider Jesus as God. This quote for example:

If Jesus is the Son of God, it wouldn't make sense for him to be God as well. So therefore, that means that Jesus and God exists. Now, isn't the first commandment "Thou shalt have none other gods before me."? Christians worship Jesus as their Lord, but would that be placing Jesus before God, and therefore committing a sin?
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Jesus I our savior who will bring us to salvation. He died for our sins, he is not above God, he apart of god, remember the trinity -- God of the Father, God of the Son, and God of the holy spirit. When we prey for jesus and such we are praying to god as well.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kame on 2005-03-13 at 21:48:56

Jesus God and the Holy Spirit are all the same.
So no. But that belongs in another topic.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by indecisiveman on 2005-03-13 at 21:53:08

Dangit I leave for just a few minutes and the whole topic is opened up. Ok first of all. FireKame, I was so tired I didn't even notice he said exodus. I hardly knew anything really.

Second off, wine is different than beer. It does not effect your body like beer does. In the Bible it says do no harm to your body(something to that affect, FK if you find the verse can you give it please) meaning, no smoking(which harms your lungs) no drinking(which harms your brain and liver and many other things) and no other sorts of things that harm your body. Third of all, Jesus IS God. Meaning, "Thou shalt not worship any Gods before thee." That means do not worship another as a God. Since Jesus and God are one in the same it is the same thing. When you worship Jesus, you are worshipping God. I don't think I left anything out...

Report, edit, etc...Posted by SpaceBoy2000 on 2005-03-13 at 22:09:08

Okay, just to invoke more controversial discussion, I'll do something stupid!

QUOTE(indecisiveman @ Mar 13 2005, 09:53 PM)

Third of all, Jesus IS God. Meaning, "Thou shalt not worship any Gods before thee." That means do not worship another as a God. Since Jesus and God are one in the same it is the same thing. When you worship Jesus, you are worshipping God. I don't think I left anything out...
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Okay, it says "Thou shalt not worship any Gods before thee.", not "Thou shalt not worship any other Gods". Wouldn't that mean that God is saying, "As long as you worship me above all other gods, you're fine". So wouldn't it then be alright to worship other gods as well, so long as you God as the almighty?

I told you I'd do something stupid.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by indecisiveman on 2005-03-13 at 22:14:09

Ok I am a bad kid

. To be totally honest with you I don't know if it says what I put or not

. It isn't my fault I am lazy ok!

Well anyways, just so you aren't right I guess I'll stop being lazy and go get the exact scripture(dang people always starting things

) Unless of course FK can put it. *Begs FireKame to reply instead of getting the Bible*.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kame on 2005-03-13 at 22:17:08

Matthew 6:24

QUOTE(Matthew 6:24 Jesus)

- "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

I was hoping I could find the parable...but I can't. No man can serve two masters.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by indecisiveman on 2005-03-13 at 22:18:57

Yeah I was hoping for one of the Ten Commandments, but hey that is even better actually. So there is your proof spaceboy. Well to you it is just an argument, to me it is proof...

. Oh well thanks FireKame.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kame on 2005-03-13 at 22:22:26

being lazy isn't a very good reason for not quoting the Bible, hun.
by the way indecisiveman: The Bible

Report, edit, etc...Posted by indecisiveman on 2005-03-13 at 22:26:05

Meh I know. It isn't my only problem. I have a hard time remembering where the heck I read things. Take for example God saying if you truly ask for forgiveness and mean it in your heart you will be forgiven. I know He says that but I don't know in what chapter/verse. And uhh, what the heck does your second sentence mean? lol. Is that a shortcut instead of looking up the verses in a Bible? Or were you merely telling me to capitalize The AND Bible. I wasn't sure(I am still tired so bare with me -.-) Anyways thanks.

Edit#1: Darn it I hate editing. If that IS a shortcut I will definately use it. But umm, how can I have it nearby when I am in a conversation, lol.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by SpaceBoy2000 on 2005-03-13 at 22:30:52

QUOTE(indecisiveman @ Mar 13 2005, 10:14 PM)

Ok I am a bad kid

. To be totally honest with you I don't know if it says what I put or not

. It isn't my fault I am lazy ok!

Well anyways, just so you aren't right I guess I'll stop being lazy and go get the exact scripture(dang people always starting things

) Unless of course FK can put it. *Begs FireKame to reply instead of getting the Bible*.
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No, the quote is right. I check my sources first.

QUOTE(FireKame @ Mar 13 2005, 10:17 PM)

Matthew 6:24

QUOTE(Matthew 6:24 Jesus)

- "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

I was hoping I could find the parable...but I can't. No man can serve two masters.
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Ah. That explains it a bit. Though I disagree with this statement by Jesus, I can understand it.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kame on 2005-03-13 at 22:37:08

QUOTE(indecisiveman @ Mar 13 2005, 08:26 PM)

Edit#1: Darn it I hate editing. If that IS a shortcut I will definately use it. But umm, how can I have it nearby when I am in a conversation, lol.
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Memorize it. Or maybe just realize where about to find stuff. Study it. etc.

Report, edit, etc...Posted by indecisiveman on 2005-03-13 at 22:42:34

Ha ha. Thanks FireKame. Your little resource thingy helped me not be lazy. Here is ONE of the verses I was talking about.

Deuteronomy 4:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Edit#1: About the whole memorizing things. You can only memorize so much right? I have a TON of scriptures in my head. Just for some reason not the ones I always seem to need. Odd isn't it

Report, edit, etc...Posted by Chill on 2005-03-13 at 22:50:06

indecisiveman, since you have been so active in this thread, I would like to know your response to Nozomu's question.

QUOTE(Nozomu @ Mar 13 2005, 08:32 PM)

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