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Suppose, say, Jim, lives his life never lieing, never stealing, never cheating, never hurting anyone else, and being kind, polite, and forgiveful. He sends money to charity, and lives humbly without excess. Jim is an atheist and always has been. Where does he go? Most Christians I've talked to have said that an atheist will go to hell. But what do you think? By the way, I'd like this not to become another "Your beliefs are wrong" "No, they're right, you're going to hell for not believing in what I believe" conversation. Please, if you're really anti-religion, don't post here.

Yea, he's going to hell.

Works you do on earth don't get you into heaven; believing in God and that his son died and rose again for you is what gets you in.

Yes exactly FireKame. TheoreticalHuman, just because you do good things for people doesn't mean you will go to heaven. Especially if you don't even believe in it, lol. I don't think you thought that through. It would be like a terrorist(who believes killing other people along with himself gains him entrance to there version of heaven) blowing himself and others up after a long life of being grateful and helping people. Based on what you are saying he would make it to heaven. I don't believe that is true. It was the best example I could think off the top of my head sorry. And just FTR, Christians hardly ever say "I am right you are wrong your burning". And if they do then they are not following the Bible very closely at all.

Where do the people who've never heard of Christianity go?

How is God omnibenevolent if these people get sent to hell? Babies who die before having knowledge of anything - does he send them to hell too?

Well CaptainWill, if you read the Bible(which I am guessing you don't, lol) babies are all saved. Well, not only babies but anyone who can not make the distinction between right or wrong. And I am not sure who hasn't heard of Christianity. Unless that person was chained up inside a room for all his/her life. Anyways, if you know something is wrong(i.e. stealing, cussing, drinking, etc.) and you do it anyways it counts as a sin. Now if you are a baby and you steal a candy form the store, that is NOT counted as a sin. Because you didn't know, on a religious level, that it was wrong. Sure your parents may have told you don't steal, but you aren't old enough to go to church and understand WHY you aren't supposed to steal. get what I am saying? Hope so. Reply back if you don't, maybe I can clarify it another way.

Oh, I understand. I simply don't agree with it.

People who haven't heard of Christianity:
- Tribes on islands in Polynesia/Melanesia etc. Also, tribes that live in African/Amazonian jungles etc.
- Feral humans. (Deprived of contact with human language).

Each person is judged by God individually, based on how much you have been exposed to Him.

I see. I am still firmly against the binding nature of Christianity however.

Americans go on about freedom, yet so many of them submit to the shackles of organised religion.

You can't let yourselves be oppressed by other humans, yet you allow yourselves to be intellectually and morally oppressed by a theoretical metaphysical entity.

Long live the free nature of secularism.

logic has it's shackles as well.

Who said anything about logic?

That just happens to be the leading thought against christianity; is that it is unlogical. woops...I guess we're getting off topic.

1 2 3 back on topic!

CaptainWill, who said being religious has shackles? Also, who said Americans go on about freedom? As long as I am with God and am a Christian I could care less what anybody does to me. My only purpose is to serve Him and try to save others by teaching them about God. The only shackles I can think about are....well none. Being religious isn't about dealing with not sinning. It is about choosing not to sin. Or if and when you sin repenting to the Lord. If someone was to claim they were Christian then to say "This sucks you can't do anything", well that person is clearly not a religious person. Maybe once you experience Christianity you will realize there IS nothing holding you back. You are completely free. I mean come on, why would you WANT to sin. Sure people slip every once in a while(Christians that is), but as long as they repent and mean it they will still be saved.

I'd prefer to remain agnostic and retain my freedom of thought than subscribe to organised religion.

It's so silly if you think about it. Christianity is a young religion. Maybe when we die, the Christians will be shocked when they see Zeus or Isis or someone looking at them for an explanation.

Christianity is a young religion, but God isn't. He has ALWAYS been around. Therefore, it will be Him who I meet at the gates of heaven(assuming I make it).

Judaism, Islam, Christianity and all monotheistic religions believe in the same god. You just have different interpretations of that god.

There are so many similarities in the three religions. That's besides the point though...

OFF TOPIC'D

again.

What about, Joe, Jim's neighbor who is a devout christian, who believes everything about christianity, but has been a jerk his whole life and has commited a few crimes. According to the 2nd post in this thread, there is going to be a "bad" person in heaven, with all the "good" people. ""= subject to opinion.

The way I see it CaptainWill is that they believe in a single entity who controls the earth. Not a God. I think of God as Jesus, whereas they think of a person who governs everything around us. So in that sense we are different for them(besides a lot of other things in the Bible).

Have you never questioned your faith? I know it's off topic, but I was just wondering.

Wouldn't it better be free to speculate on the origins of the Universe and so on rather than believe something because you were told to?

Think of it as an Exodus situation:

I'm the snake. You're Eve. Free thought is the apple.

As you can see from this parallel of Exodus, one of Christianity's basic principles is to suppress free thought and independent attempts at explaining life's mysteries.

I disagree with that principle. I don't think that I should go to hell for it.

Well iamacow, if you had read the posts more thoroughly(not to be offensive) you would find out that you need more information. Does "Jim" repent for what he does and truly mean it? Or is he one of those people who goes to church and thinks he will be saved for doing so? Depending on what happens he will go to heaven or hell. reply back. Umm captainwill, I HAVE questioned my faith(if you were talking to me). I believe everyone at one point has to. Not tell themselves it is wrong but try to prove that it is right. And no one told me to be Christian. I chose on my own. My friend at school is Buddhist and yet his parents are all Catholic. So just cause you grow up in a certain household doesn't mean you must stay that way. And I am kind of tired right now can you sum up your last argument in easier words sorry. Maybe use an example. I just can't think about what all those big words mean right now sorry.

I gave an example. I used Exodus, for crying out loud! I thought that you might understand it better if I used a Biblical example of how Christianity suppresses free thought.

Here's my argument in its most simple form:

- God wants us to be ignorant, obedient servants.
- I don't like that.
- I don't want to be a part of something that I don't like.
- I don't think that it's fair for me to 'go to hell' just for that.

How did you question your faith, by the way, and what made you sure that it was correct?

Im not aethiest nor am I religous. I believe in god(Jesus) just because of some of the old testaments. There is no reason to limit yourself to one thing.

I am a very curious person and I am always questioning, I would rather see myself as a person who is a philosopher. I have to always question everything.

indecisiveman, what is your take on the sciences?
I.E. Stim Cell Research, Abortion, Cloning, Evolution, and other sciences of that sort?

I think stim cell research is going to be an epidemic which can become overwhelming and will end up becoming a very big problem. But, it could also be very beneficial. If you were going to have a child and you were able to see if your child would be born with a mental or a physical disabillity, would you prevent or having the child and possibly ruining the child's life as well as yours.

Abortion should be 100% LEGAL I think that it is bullshit that G. W Bush is trying to outlaw this. What if you were a female who got raped and you live in a family that does not have enough money to support a family as well as another child? What would you do then?

Cloning... Now that should be banned. I think that is pointless... There is no piint in doing that. God has created a beautiful person. As much as we love that person we do not need to re-create this person.

Evolution is a very "touchy" topic. Because i believe in evolution and creationism. I think it is very far fetched that god "created" our universe in 6 days 7 nights. ANd I reall dont think that matter was created by random occurences in the age scientists call... "Primordeal Soup"

Where do you stand on all of this?

Eh well I still don't understand what you are trying to say sorry. A bit of tiredness plus not knowing what you mean. God wants us to be ignorant? Where did you conclude that form? PLease tell me so I can better understand you. And also. I questioned my faith by asking myself how one person could be able to do so much. I also read the Bible VERY closely(on a day when I wasn't this tired ). And I showed the side that was pro-Bible. How ELSE would we get on earth? Well I am sorry but, I would much rather believe there is a great entity who created me than a few rocks collided and made people. I mean come on now.(no offense to you scientologists??or whatever you call yourselves) Also, who would take the time to write the Bible? And so many scriptures make sense with each other that it is IMPOSSIBLE for people to make it. All that thinking and placement of verses and how they all coincide with each other. I mean come on a great being HAD to make it(through the writing of people of course). So hope that answers your questions. Now answer mine -.-

Edit#1: A quick edit after reading what dark2004 had to say. Dude, what the HECK are you talking about? That is TOTALLY off-topic(except for the God made one person why clone him). We are talking about people who are good but aren't religious going to heaven or hell, not George Washington Bush banning the stem cell research. Honestly I have no clue where that came from but it was totally random. Please stick to the topic. No offense was meant in this edit.

Why do you think christainity is binding? There is nothing holding me back physically or mentally. The religion simply tries to show you how to live a good life with out sinning. (lets say your a scientist) You may believe that the universe was created by god, but that doesn't stop you from researching and discovering new clues to figureing out how the universere was created (thats not a sin). And even if you do sin (for catholics at least) you can go to confession and be forgiven for your sins. I'm a catholic and I admit I don't go to mass every SINGLE sunday, I try and go when ever I am able to, but that doesn't make me a sinner.

Could you please tell me one reason The Crusades were a good cause for Christianity?

BTW: Why won't the Vatican (or whoever) release the sacred scrolls that supposedly prove gods existence.

If there was such an entity, they would have made those scrolls publice long ago. But, if there is a God, why would they hide it?

The Bible was written over hundreds of years. The books coincide because people copied ideas from one another when they wrote them.

I can't put my argument in any more simple terms...but Exodus, right?

In Exodus, God tells Adam and Eve not to eat fruit from the tree of knowledge.
When they do eat from the tree, they are no longer ignorant of the way everything around them works. Before then, they have no concept of morality, no curiosity. They are not sentient.

God then throws them out of Eden, the 'garden of ignorance.'

By analysing this, I came to the conclusion that God and Christianity encourage the suppression of intelligent thought.

ADDITION:


Some Christians would disagree with you. The way that indecisiveman puts it, you'd think it was binding. He mentions that drinking alcohol is a sin at one point.