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mmm nozomu, you just stated my statement is correct. He won the most votes out of any President in history. period. stop making excusses

I don't disagree with Islam, I think it is a very accepting Religion. It is the people who abuse the Religion which I hate.

ok..... keep thinking this will become a dictatorship....you guys live a life of fear, its really sad you guys are afraid it will happen becuase really it won't. The senate won't allow it. The house won't allow it. The people won't allow it. Do you forget this country is for the people? If you guys are so angry and so 'right' and 'correct' about all this and if you guys really think every one is/should be against Bush then send letters to senators, send letters to the government, have him impeached! Stop complaining about him and fix it.

LOL!!! and you are STILL entrenched and STILL not listening to us.



You take it litterally. he was trying to explain his argument.



They already have.

+-->

That, and the President.
He's selfish dude. seriously. i am not lying.



*coughentrenchedcough*

Youre not being open minded, not even slightly...



Why are we even debating over this then?

if youre just going to keep coming up with the same answer for the rest of this thread, there was no point to putting in this thread.

Read the forum name "Serious Discussion" ... youre not going to learn or listen to anything we say because ou dont want to..

ergo: a complete waste of a thread unless your willing to LISTEN to us.


PLZ chris, think about what you say b4 you type it..

Unfortunately, Stars, the number of votes was not the thing I was disputing. If you had read my post, you would see that I was disputing the reason he got so many votes. I also offered evidence that, when viewed in the correct context, the number of votes does not make the majority a large one. In effect, I hamstrung your argument that more than half of the populace agrees with what Bush is doing, as if their agreement was any justification for it in the first place. Instead, you read my post and saw only what you wanted to see, just like our President has done with world events in the last 5 years.

Nozomu, my only point was that Bush had the most votes, period! I am a straight forward guy, I see directly to the point. My question to myself was simply this, "did bush have the most votes out of any president in history?" my answer, yes. Stating reasons why is excusses. And you coming in with all these excusses and crap had little to do with what I was talking about. I am not disputing anything you are saying about the election material.

And just becuase I don't agree with you guys you think Im not listening to your points/arguements? Childish excuss for an arguement....

And just to tell you, it would seem like you guys aren't listening to me either. I told you that I have a liberal father, who agrees with you guys (except moore). I have to listen to him every night.... I know your points and I cannot deny that I feel towards the right rather then left point of views. But still you attack me that I don't listen.....

Okay, and how would Bush having the "most votes out of any president in history" prove anything? Nozomu already proved that just because Bush won with the most votes does NOT mean that he is the most popular. Yes, he has the most votes out of any other president. But the same could've been said to Kelly if 5% of the votes went the other way.

If the number of votes did NOT increase over time, then that would be a problem, as the population of the US is growing over time, and hence the number of votes SHOULD be increasing

Stars, you're still living in your bubble. You used the excuse that Bush had the most votes ever in one presidential election as justification for the population's support of him. However, my point was that those numbers, when viewed in the correct context show only a tiny majority of support, thereby undermining your argument. I agreed with you when you said he had the most votes, but that fact alone does not make your argument valid, especially when we strip away the misleading contextual framework in which you placed that one fact.

sounds like more excusses to me

2 things:

Half country voted for Bush

Bush won most votes out of any president.

Lets move on to another debate becuase I think we have established this way too many times.

New Question:

Do you think it was ok for the terrorists to behead the Korean civilians in Iraq?

(Cause you have already stated it was ok for the terrorists to behead american civilians)

STARS, I believe this describes you pretty well. After your statement about Bush getting the most votes was proven irrelevant and out of context, you POSTED IT AGAIN, claiming that he was "just making excuses". Furthermore, you give us a question you know the answer to, most likely for the purpose of twisting it around later, "Oh yeah, then why don't you support bush, he's getting those terrorists! You obviously think it's right!". Sorry, but you're a tad predictable. The Senate won't allow it? The house won't allow it? Congress won't allow it? I'm pretty sure there's a Republican majority in all of those. Furthermore, they barely even read the "Patriot Act", that's how it passed so easily, NO ONE READ IT! Lastly, with all the cheap scare tactics of the administration and their dull followers twisting around questions, everyone would be afraid not to vote against it. Besides, they're all white, rich, and Republican up there, it's not like they'd be affected.

can i say that a terrorist = a crazy person who has been crazed to do things he doesnt know what he is doing. So then tha can be anyong right??
Well we havent ALWAYS been on the right side of things like Vietnam War. Like Iraq who attacked us, we attacked them back. Sure terrorists are all evil. But a terrorist is just a twisted normal person. So then any one who is in here can be a terrorist. Look up definition of terrorist. Sure they kill people more slowly while we kill like billions in a second. They murder you slowly... Terrorists are sick but they arent the Most evil people. What about Nazi's they were pretty bad. Hitler was a bright person but because of his belief in Nazi, he lost his mind.
I didnt look at the videos. But there are some that criticize America. You must ask enemies how good you are because you are their enemy which means that you are evil to them. America was just a small bump for Hitler. That is what he saw. That is why he kept on going. Like Civil war. We like North, but South was cool too. South wasnt all bad. Vietnam is the best example i can think of. What is "good" and "evil" Communism or independance? You would say communism is more evil. So then in Vietnam we did the right thing??



Well umm that is pretty little... compared to what happened in one day in Japan...

PLEASE: Read the ENTIRE post before you reply!



So just becuase the majority in the goverment is republican, its going to be a dictatorship, WOW your really smart!

And YOUR a predictable liberal, you complain about everything, make personal attacks - which the website is totally out of line, and always sees the bad in people and not the good. also you bitch about people not 'understanding' you. e.i. your points. and you never leave things be, such as how I ended the strange debate over the election and started a new one, but you still attack me about the elections. I bet it was a huge ego destroyer that bush beat kerry, well get over it.

This is why I support Bush. I understand the Terrorists the best out of any of you and if you only have read Al Queda's manuel then you would understand them better and actually see my points for once. Seems like all you guys care about is YOUR points.

mmm let me quote a little of the manual of terror for you, the REAL reasons why al quada hate America and I quote (also note, this comes from an Al Queda training manuel found in a cave in Aphganistan by British troops)

"In the name of Allah, the merciful and compassionate.

To those champions who avowed the truth day and night...
And wrote with their blood and sufferings these phrases...

The confrontation that we are calling for with the apostate
regimes does not know Socratic debates...Platonic ideals...
nor Aristotelian diplomacy. But it knows the dialogue of bullets,
the ideals of assassination, bombing, abd destruction, and the
diplomacy of the cannon and machine-gun.

Islamic governments have never and will never be established
through peaceful solutions and cooperative councils. They are
established as they [always] have been by pen and gun by word
and bullet by tongue and teeth."
pg. 61 (TJDGI)

So basically they would bomb us any way for helping Israel. This also shows how they refuse to see AMERICA's POINT on how to form a successful government. geez they don't understand us! MAN they aren't listening

Had enough yet? Then try this one:

"Peldge, O sister:

Covenant, O sister...to make their women widows and their children orphans.
Covenant, O Sister...to make them desire death and hate appointments and prestige.
Covenant, O Sister...to slaughter them like lambs and let the Nile, al-Asi, and Euphrates rivers flow with their blood.
Covenant, O Sister...to be a pick of destructionfor every godless and apostate regime.
Covenant, O Sister..to retaliate for you against every dog who touch you even with a bad word."
pg. 61 (TJDGI)

These are not reasonable men. These are killers of children. These are killers who use theology and deception to justify their actions. They live in caves, plotting and scheming, blaming everyone else for what they ahve done. There is no reasoning with them. Once you understand what they are about, you understand that there is only one way to deal with them: Kill them all...

(Now to take a quote I get alot from people debating with me)

pwned...gg, no rm.

What the hell? I didn't care. I didn't like Kerry. There are more then two political parties, buddy. So.. let me see... you care about more then your point? Yeah, you sure do, you sure are considerate. But then again.. we're not talking just about Al-Quaeda. There are more then just terrorists in the middle east, and as smart as our bombs may be, there's still going to be civilian deaths. But my point isn't even that. My point is that your party is using scare tactics to keep the public afraid so they can slip in their own agenda underneath it. I mean, you can always say "Hey, if you Remove us, the Liberals will let them kill you", and then, hey, you can take away Welfare so the poor starve and die and the party sponsors keep some money! It's disgusting. You criticize me for complaining. But if we don't say anything, hey buddy, NOTHING HAPPENS. GG Pwned no rm? What're you, 6?

Stars, are you totally oblivious or something? No one is disputing the fact that terrorists want to kill us. But the world isn't always black and white like you make it out to be. Obviously you consider arab civilian lives to be worth less than American lives, or you wouldn't be able to hold your position so comfortably. Which makes you a racist.

All of that stuff written in the manual applies to America's war tactics, as well. America was born from blood and suffering, not democracy and unicorns and magic fairies like you were apparently taught. Bloodless revolutions and immediate societal changes are few and far between, a concept which you are apparently unable to comprehend. Let's make this clear - we are using terror tactics against them, and you seem to have no problem with it. But we call them "proactive psychological strategies" instead of "terrorism". You know, bombings, raids, curfews, inspections, occupation of their country, and other methods of psychological warfare. If we were losing a war back home in America, there's no question that we would attack civilians in our enemies' countries. Look at WWII and what we did to Japan.

That's not what I wanted to say. What I really wanted to to was ask you to try to look at things more subjectively. Rid yourself of all of your preconcieved notions and gather all of the data that you can before making any observations or arriving at a conclusion. And don't selectively filter the data and display it out of context like you've been doing, because that takes away from the validity of your claims.

The above statement is what anyone who wants to have a sophisticated debate would ask of you. If you don't want to have a sophisticated, mature debate, then don't go around firing off your unsupported opinions, or at least do it in the Garbage forum where the serious debaters around here won't read it and attempt to have a discussion about it.

You're not listening. What he said is not that it's okay to do it, but that we also do things that we accuse them of under a different name so that our public, like you, thinks nothing of it.

You know the terrorists carry out these public beheadings to get reactions like this out of people like you, right? I know it's disgusting, but reacting in anger (and possibly invading more countries) is what they want us to do.

I have seen all your points and have taken the time to respond to each post. I hope that means anything to you guys, and if you keep bashing me for not seeing your points then obviously you aren't reading what I am trying to tell you.



Ok first, Im not your buddy...
There are more then two political parties, duh, good job stating the obvious. There are more then just terrorists in the middle east, good job, you stated another obvious fact. One, my party doesn't need to use scare tactics becuase every news channel is always reporting murders, child sex offenders, terrorist activities, how unsecure our border is and how a terrorist can sneak a dirty bomb through, etc.. Funny you talk about welfare, but you don't talk about how we are trying to reform social security which your side hasn't come up with a plan yet or even seriously attempted to. Again you liberals always see the bad in things...seems a little one sided to me. and when I say complaining, I mean complaining and not doing anything about it. Just bitching to each other and civilian republicans doesn't get anything done. Complaining and sending letters and meeting with senators get things done. And I said I was quoting from other people who have put in pwned, gg. Yet you fail to see that...



And thats funny you should say I don't think their lives are worth much becuase I have been debating that I want to bring freedom to the Iraqi people/arabic poeple, yep they aren't worht much to me so why am I working hard to give them a free government? I could easly say you don't care about the arabic people, becuase being gassed in their villages and mass grave sites just becuase it doesn;t pose a threat to America.

The country still isn't save nozomu, and you fail to see that YOU CAN"T MAKE A COUNTRY IN THREE FREAKIN MONTHS. You have to have curfews, which we have here in america mind you, raids...raids on houses/destinations that have suspected terrorist/insurgent activities in it, which we have here in America -- its called gang/drug raids (thats what the swat team is here for! ). Bombings...Nothin to bomb any more seeing as New Iraq is our ally, you can't bomb a building cause insurgents move too fast. Inspections.....to see if there are any insurgent activity in a house hold, which we have here in America -- but we use warrents. Occupation of their country until the New iraqi government asks us to leave, which they have asked us to stay until their national army and government services can handle the insurgents. And America is not the America that was back in the 1940s, different people running the government now a days.

And I didn't know I had an immature debate? I supported my arguement with quotes and page numbers and titles... don't know where you got that idea that I don't support my arguements, which most of you have not besides some bais websites you have given me.



I am listening, they already proved it was ok for terrorists to behead americans becuase we have killed, on accident, some civilians. I was asking if it was ok then to behead people of other nations.




Well, if you read my quotes above, you would understand that they don't want westerners invading their countries, they want to rule their own countries through war fare and an iron grip. They feel like we are holding them back some how becuase we are one of the biggest buyers of their oil and becuase we support Israel.

Okay now I know this isn't exactly on the whole subject of the argument that's at hand so please don't attack me for postine my idea.
I think that probably the BEST thing the U.S. could do right about now is to start making ourselves and independant nation. That way we could be self supporting, and we could turtle in for a while and let the world handle itself for a while since it seems the U.S. has been the world's police (at least in my opinion) for the past 20 years or so. So, while we are sitting in Iraq fixing stuff, we could get off out lazy arses and start drilling the oil wells in our country (U.S.) so we could stop importing the stuff. And after all that we could then start researching more efficient fuels that don't include fossil fuels. At that point we could stop depending so much on oil and move away from that. At that point we could almost completely withdraw from all this crap we've gotten ourselves drawn into, and squelch the press for the time that the other nations sit there and ridicule us. And I know that the First Amendment says something about the freedom of press but, really, if the govenment wants to they could pretty much kidnap anyone they wanted and they'd never be seen or heard from again, and the media wouldn't have a big thing about it because the government would have squelched them. So we could sit there developing more advanced technology while the rest of the world handles itself and we don't sit there butting in and trying to "save the world." So hopefully, if someone snaps and decides to fire off a nuke at someone, we would of course not fire any, the rest of the world would probably decide to nuke the original nuker and then try to nuke us for not helping them. If that happens, if we have sat there being self-sufficient then we should have some kind of missle defense net, whether it be satellites or a wing of high-speed interceptors to nuetralize the nuke, and save ourselves. OR the world might go and nuke eachother and if the rest of the world is gone we could sit there and keep on living because we wouldn't be importing all this stuff from othere countries. And I do realize that there would be a nuclear winter BUT if we have been sitting there advancing our tech than we might have some kind of cloud clearing system or in a worse-case-scenario we could have a moon colony or something, using the same tech that we were using to survive, and after a 100 years or so (I think that's how long it would last) we could go back to Earth and start working on it. And I know it's a lot but please please please don't sit there and flame me about listing something not having to do with the terrorists themselves. I was just hoping this might settle the argument down long enough for everyone to mostly forget about it and start somethin else.

The reason I said there are more parties is that your posts always include one or two repeats of "liberal". I don't consider myself a Democrat, as much as you may want to place me in that party. Still, if you're such a fact-based no nonsense guy, why'd you link that video? Isn't that just playing on the emotions of people to rally them in blind support of your party? I don't support Liberal Democrats, but I don't support right wing fug monkeys.

If you are listening, then why do you keep stuffing words into our mouths by saying that we said that it's "okay", despite the fact that I said 3 times now that that's not what we're saying?

Im trying to show you who are enemys are and what they are capable of doing to civilians of other countries whos only crime was rebuilding Iraq after the mess the US army left there. And Repbulicans aren't the only people wanting terrorists dead. If I am trying to rally anyone, I would be trying to rally America/SEN as a whole and not divide it.



ok, fine, so you don't think its ok. But from the impression I got from the others who have posted here pretty much had the arguement against me that it was okay for terrorists to behead Americans becuase we have killed a few civilians.

But your method is not an intelligent, reasonable one. It's simply playing off the emotional fallacy of the general public. Sure, they're bad, but does that justify all the civilian deaths? Does it justify a war that crushed the stability of a country? Maybe. I'm not denying that Saddam was a bad guy, it's just that we didn't have a credible cause for war, and the other actions of the current administration shows some nice signs of racism and religious oppression. Sure is great to have a Conservative President!

Please enlighten me on or racist government and religious oppression government, becuase I have a hard time seeing our government as being racist when our secretary of state is african american.... when you make a statement like that, you need to back it up with proof. My method isn't intelligent or reason able? You obviously have enough reason to have a debate here, sounds like your a little desperate for an arguement, on what basis is this unreasonable and unintelligent? If it unintelligent I have obviously drawed you in here, and nozomu and Ezday2 who I know are all intelligent and excellent debaters.

This topic is on other sites, so I geuss its unreasonable and unintelligent over there too...heres one example http://forums.military.com/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc...5/m/50900847613

Would this happen to be you?

Im sorry, my name isn't patriotlady on there. its thedaddy0420, seeing as if you actually went to the site and saw my post there and also looked at my profile here and saw that my aim and e-mail is thedaddy0420. good eyes, stay sharp!

Umm... I never said you were PatriotLady.
And actualy, my first hints were your choice of words, saying that someone was "justifying" what they were doing, and saying that the person was using "we're killing them more inhumanely" as their justification.


Umm... do you know what that's about?

some arabic dude that is like the most uber annoying guy ever. he is racist against jews and like everything.

like this person has gotton really out of hand x10. Think me x100 plus racist to the max. If you check the index for topics you will see onlymejane hail hilter and shit like that.