Report, edit, etc...Posted by MapUnprotector on 2005-05-09 at 23:22:29
QUOTE(ihatett @ May 9 2005, 11:20 PM)
assuming that it does require thought, once you have figured it out it's done
it's a mechanical task
[right][snapback]204644[/snapback][/right]
it's a mechanical task
[right][snapback]204644[/snapback][/right]
Doesn't that also happen when making a melee map sometimes? The more you make melee maps, the more you understand and the easier it is to create one, all you need to add is your creativity, but you know the basics, like how to place minerals and where to put ramps and such.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Staredit.Net Essence on 2005-05-09 at 23:23:15
QUOTE(devilesk @ May 9 2005, 10:22 PM)
Doesn't that also happen when making a melee map sometimes?
[right][snapback]204647[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]204647[/snapback][/right]
give an example
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MapUnprotector on 2005-05-09 at 23:25:08
Creating certain terrain. Once you visualize it actually creating it in the map. Knowing how big bases should be and where to put ramps and how to put ramps so that they fit correctly. How to place minerals in a good way, how many to place, how many expos it should have. Actually, many things that you need to have a balanced map could become mechanical once you know them.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Staredit.Net Essence on 2005-05-09 at 23:26:11
QUOTE
Ihatett have you ever tried making a very complicated UMS map with original trigger systems? I haven't really seen you as ever making a UMS map.
No, but I'm a programmer.
ADDITION:
QUOTE(devilesk @ May 9 2005, 10:25 PM)
Creating certain terrain. Once you visualize it actually creating it in the map. Knowing how big bases should be and where to put ramps and how to put ramps so that they fit correctly. How to place minerals in a good way, how many to place, how many expos it should have. Actually, many things that you need to have a balanced map could become mechanical once you know them.
[right][snapback]204653[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]204653[/snapback][/right]
No, because all of those things vary hugely from map to map. Look at Paradoxx and Forte.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MapUnprotector on 2005-05-09 at 23:28:23
I don't think they would vary in every melee map, just as some UMS maps have things in common.
I think melee maps would have divisions of type such as islands and how many players are on the map. Just how UMS has different kinds of maps like bounds, defenses, etc.
I think melee maps would have divisions of type such as islands and how many players are on the map. Just how UMS has different kinds of maps like bounds, defenses, etc.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Staredit.Net Essence on 2005-05-09 at 23:35:38
You are getting off topic.
While most melee maps share basic common traits, that has nothing to do with whether making them is mechanical (or anything else, really).
I realize that that designing melee maps and UMS maps is not mechanical (the task of creating them is), it takes vast more skill, thought and testing to create a good melee map then it does a UMS map. One is purely creative (UMS), the other is creative and analytical.
While most melee maps share basic common traits, that has nothing to do with whether making them is mechanical (or anything else, really).
I realize that that designing melee maps and UMS maps is not mechanical (the task of creating them is), it takes vast more skill, thought and testing to create a good melee map then it does a UMS map. One is purely creative (UMS), the other is creative and analytical.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MapUnprotector on 2005-05-09 at 23:38:47
I also think that first of all
Ultimo doesn't really create Pro melee maps
Ihatett doesn't create "pro" UMS maps, like the quality of Tux
So, how do both of you come to the conclusions that one is harder to make than the other when you haven't experienced all the complicated things each has. Just saying "oh I've tried it once" doesn't really count. I don't think many people here are experienced at creating very good UMS and melee maps. I think it is mostly about your impression of each one through trying it only a little.
Even I haven't created a melee map of pro calibur or a UMS map as good as Tux, but I still hold respect for each kind and the skill it takes, and I will not say that one is better than the other.
Ultimo doesn't really create Pro melee maps
Ihatett doesn't create "pro" UMS maps, like the quality of Tux
So, how do both of you come to the conclusions that one is harder to make than the other when you haven't experienced all the complicated things each has. Just saying "oh I've tried it once" doesn't really count. I don't think many people here are experienced at creating very good UMS and melee maps. I think it is mostly about your impression of each one through trying it only a little.
Even I haven't created a melee map of pro calibur or a UMS map as good as Tux, but I still hold respect for each kind and the skill it takes, and I will not say that one is better than the other.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Staredit.Net Essence on 2005-05-09 at 23:42:19
I have never made a UMS map.
But I'm a programmer, which is UMS making but much harder.
But I'm a programmer, which is UMS making but much harder.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MapUnprotector on 2005-05-09 at 23:44:09
Not necessarily, you can't make opinions based on UMS just because you program. I agree they are very similar and programmer allows you to do more, but until you actually experience everything about UMS triggering you don't know how hard it is to make a UMS map.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Ultimo on 2005-05-09 at 23:45:32
So if I were to create a "pro" melee map, would I be more credible then ihatett? 
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MapUnprotector on 2005-05-09 at 23:47:14
Probably, because you know what it takes to create a very good melee and UMS map, and therefore can make a better opinion about each one.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-05-09 at 23:56:21
Let's reach a consensus here:
Both UMS and melee maps require different skills in making. Neither is officially harder than the other.
Both UMS and melee maps require different skills in making. Neither is officially harder than the other.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MapUnprotector on 2005-05-09 at 23:57:39
Yay the great MA said something wonderful and I think it concludes this argument. Lets get on topic!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Staredit.Net Essence on 2005-05-10 at 00:47:45
QUOTE(devilesk @ May 9 2005, 10:44 PM)
Not necessarily, you can't make opinions based on UMS just because you program. I agree they are very similar and programmer allows you to do more, but until you actually experience everything about UMS triggering you don't know how hard it is to make a UMS map.
[right][snapback]204679[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]204679[/snapback][/right]
That doesn't make any sense. Doing something more complicated and on a larger scale doesn't mean that you know it is harder? Give me a break.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Entropy on 2005-05-10 at 01:47:04
The idea of our melee section is for melee map makers to have a place to consult their maps with other map makers and even with the USM community. This place will never attract "gamers" to come and discuss the maps ~ for that you have to post ur maps in "gamer" forums (make sure u leave a link to where u posted ur maps). Learn as much as you can, get good at melee map making and forget all the rest. Sooner or later we will have the best in the whole community meeting here just to share ideas or communicate with each others. There are already many good map makers posting.
But what ever you do make sure you always show case your work here too.
Peace,
1com
Entropy aka physician
But what ever you do make sure you always show case your work here too.
Peace,
1com
Entropy aka physician
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Slyence on 2005-05-10 at 07:56:17
QUOTE
Is there a way to popularize melee at SEN?
Of course, Just make the maps. And make sure people want to play them...
Thus, Making more people like melee here at SEN.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MapUnprotector on 2005-05-10 at 15:13:03
QUOTE(ihatett @ May 10 2005, 12:47 AM)
That doesn't make any sense. Doing something more complicated and on a larger scale doesn't mean that you know it is harder? Give me a break.
[right][snapback]204762[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]204762[/snapback][/right]
It doesn't make sense to you because you aren't experienced enough at UMS mapmaking
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Staredit.Net Essence on 2005-05-10 at 20:35:23
QUOTE(devilesk @ May 10 2005, 02:13 PM)
It doesn't make sense to you because you aren't experienced enough at UMS mapmaking
[right][snapback]204960[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]204960[/snapback][/right]
I can not believe you don't understand. I'll put this into easy-to-read format.
1. Programming large C++/C# projects is MUCH harder than making a UMS project. The language is more complicated, there are more potental problems you have to deal with, your work is spread across dozens of files, etc. IT IS HARDER.
2. I am a programmer. In other words, I on a daily basis experience the above.
3. You are saying that I won't have any idea how hard it is to make UMS maps until I make them. Well, considering that I DO SOMETHING HARDER every day, I think I know what I'm talking about.
Kiddy programming is easier than real programming. Pick up Modern C++ Design, read through it, and tell me that UMS-making is harder than programming.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Staredit.Net Essence on 2005-05-11 at 00:57:17
QUOTE(PsychoTemplar @ May 10 2005, 05:33 PM)
Wow... this thing got really huge fast... Gotta love 1com. GJ Entropy.
Actually that was me, I was arguing against MA =(
However, I liked your idea about having semi official Judges. But I don't think we have the muscle to support it since we have a lack of serious/experienced players (can't be helped).
I think another possibility would to simply become more devoted as a community, and always offer to play games on the map, and for the map maker to be prepared to allow games, so long as they had control (via trust) over which version was used. The purpose of which would be to attempt to take advantage of certain cheese factors in the map, and show in a very visual way how the map can be improved. It's a lot of time, but that's what it's going to take for people to really put in the extra effort in making maps.
[right][snapback]205153[/snapback][/right]
Actually that was me, I was arguing against MA =(
However, I liked your idea about having semi official Judges. But I don't think we have the muscle to support it since we have a lack of serious/experienced players (can't be helped).
I think another possibility would to simply become more devoted as a community, and always offer to play games on the map, and for the map maker to be prepared to allow games, so long as they had control (via trust) over which version was used. The purpose of which would be to attempt to take advantage of certain cheese factors in the map, and show in a very visual way how the map can be improved. It's a lot of time, but that's what it's going to take for people to really put in the extra effort in making maps.
[right][snapback]205153[/snapback][/right]
I'd be willing to play on more user created maps, but it's really aggrivating to play on a map with bad minerals, because it throws everything off. If people would at least fix their minerals, I would be willing to play on more maps.
I think the best way to generate interest in the real Starcraft is to post news items regarding the pro leagues, along with links to the VODs (they don't have to be hosted on this site, of course).
By the way, I have heard of "1com", what was that about? It was apperentaly something that Physician posted.
ADDITION:
I also have a question directed at him, if he comes back. What did you do that made you a major player in the foreign starcraft scene? For those unaccustomed "foreign" means non-Korean.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by sckor on 2005-05-11 at 07:13:46
There is so much written on this argument at SEN.
I really don't get how much people are blind to Lost temple.
Both require a good amount of skill.
and you don't compare them on which one is better becuase that is like comparing apples and oranges.
I really don't get how much people are blind to Lost temple.
Both require a good amount of skill.
and you don't compare them on which one is better becuase that is like comparing apples and oranges.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Staredit.Net Essence on 2005-05-11 at 13:04:22
QUOTE(sckor @ May 11 2005, 06:13 AM)
There is so much written on this argument at SEN.
I really don't get how much people are blind to Lost temple.
Both require a good amount of skill.
and you don't compare them on which one is better becuase that is like comparing apples and oranges.
[right][snapback]205743[/snapback][/right]
I really don't get how much people are blind to Lost temple.
Both require a good amount of skill.
and you don't compare them on which one is better becuase that is like comparing apples and oranges.
[right][snapback]205743[/snapback][/right]
It's more like comparing a juicy, healthy apple with an old, moldy orange.
Sure, you can't technically compare them, but it's obvious which is better.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-05-12 at 00:08:27
Lost temple is a good map but i think we need to try new things
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Staredit.Net Essence on 2005-05-12 at 01:01:21
QUOTE(MillenniumArmy @ May 11 2005, 11:08 PM)
Lost temple is a good map but i think we need to try new things
[right][snapback]206451[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]206451[/snapback][/right]
No one said otherwise.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by sckor on 2005-05-12 at 07:28:39
I was just using Lost Temple as an example to show how much attention Melee maps can get.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by esem on 2005-05-12 at 12:56:20
Why don't you (Entropy) consult with the PGT admin for next season to get one map accepted into the pool?
They were willing to accept the winner of the TLnet competition into their pool, but that thing is still going because their staff are unmotivated. I don't see why they wouldn't accept a SEN map competition winner into the pool. You could probably very easily get some good players and map makers (bill307, mora) as judges for it.
That should boost the community quite a bit when the time comes around.
-
Stop arguing Melee map VS UMS maps. Good UMS maps are just as hard to come across as good melee maps.
They were willing to accept the winner of the TLnet competition into their pool, but that thing is still going because their staff are unmotivated. I don't see why they wouldn't accept a SEN map competition winner into the pool. You could probably very easily get some good players and map makers (bill307, mora) as judges for it.
That should boost the community quite a bit when the time comes around.
-
Stop arguing Melee map VS UMS maps. Good UMS maps are just as hard to come across as good melee maps.