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I was looking through the mapdori news post, and I become furious.

Apperently some of the UMS makers here are whiny little script kiddies who think making fun UMS maps require more skill than making balanced melee maps.

Here are some noteworthy quotes, some more reasonable than others but all are wrong:

















Melee maps are seen as inferior here. First of all: I understand this being mainly a UMS forum, and most of the melee players visiting other sites such as teamliquid, pgtour, or gosugamers. Still, if they realized there was infinitely more to melee map making than putting start locations and scattering minerals around the map, and if they realized that there was more to playing starcraft then... well, I don't even know what they think the game is like... but if they became more knowledgable about melee and it's nuances then possible the influx of new players could possible solidify starcraft as the new chess: a timeless game.

How could we popularize melee here?



Sorry for all of the errors, I have to go.

Actually, to all those people who were quoted, I would like to see them actually make a good, original, and balanced melee map.

To popularize melee, I think we should enlighten everyone about the wonders of starcraft and how melee is a great game mode

Also it really has to get popular on Bnet first, and then they will want to discuss strategies and mapmaking about melee, once the people like melee.

Also, if yoshi or IP would allow this, put some kind of incentive for posting and being an active melee person Like awards for good melee maps, a hall of fame, or more minerals for posting good topics here

What discourages many people from making melee maps is the fact that there is no way to show players that they made the map in the game. You cannot put it on the force names, you cannot put it in the briefing, and you cannot even put it in triggers.

That why i seriously think battle.net needs to make it so that in the game lobbys we can see the map descriptions because they're right now pretty much obsolete and useless

Wow, an incentive to being an active melee person, what a prejudice towards melee. As said, you should treat both maps fairly, just since one isn't as "popular" as the other, doesn't mean it's not better. You're going have to realize most of the B.net population is people who log on to play fun games that they enjoy and don't require much thinking. Very unlikely that you spend hours playing a melee game against a complete stranger. It won't get popular on B.net, ever. If Battle.net was composed of mature people, it would, but as of now, it isn't.



I could counter this, but I'm not gonna sink down to your level and refer to people to such lowly animals as slugs, since that's just disrespectful. Just since people don't have the same tastes as you doesn't mean they're ignorant. You probably make fun of people who don't wear "cool" clothes, just from the way you post.


I seriously doubt most of you map make for the fun of it, and for yourself. If you did, you would never show anyone else your map. You want recogintion or a pat on the back for your hard work, it's the same with all map makers. You want to someone that it's cool, therefore you want some sort of attention. If everyone mapped for themselves, then they wouldn't bother showing anyone. If you map for the good of the community, you wouldn't bother putting your name on your map, in which you can't do anyways in Melee. But you still post a thread and say you made it, and you expect no one to steal it. You can't deny it it, since it's true.



Hey, you make me a good, original, and awesome UMS like Rush! and I'll respect melee map makers more. Till then, I advise you refrain from such comments as "UMS IS ALL TRIGGERS WTF MATE!"



Wow, can you say hypocrite? People do realize that it's more then placing minerals and start locations, but you and alot of other people don't realize what kind of skill it takes to make a good UMS map. All you think it is triggers, maybe you should try opening your eyes, and make a good UMS map before you start talking. Just since people don't have the same tastes as you doesn't give you the right to call them "inferior." Better is very subjective, if you didn't notice.

The ignorance of melee "map makers" is surprising at times.

Pfft, I was just giving ideas for making it more popular, please if you could think of better suggestions go right ahead. The incentive part was just to try to gain popularity, like highlighting our melee section. You don't have to say it's because the melee section and it should get more attention, you could say it is a relatively slow forum and you are trying to gain more support by, for a limited time, putting up some kind of incentive. Hell, even a melee mapmaking spotlight showcase would be a step in the right direction for "incentive". At least just a little recognition, if you want melee maps to be more popular.

And about people being a bad judge of melee maps, we could set up some kind of judging team made up of people here that play melee regularly. It doesn't really matter if they are the BEST at judging, but it's just a start.

Also, I never said it would be easy to popularize it on bnet, hell if some one asked me for 1v1 I would decline. But it IS probably the best way to gain interest, if they like playing melee then they might be interested in talking about strategies, and mapmaking. Or at least on bnet find some melee people who would like to join a forum.

To make the forum popular, you have to find SOME people that want to talk about melee. Battle.net should be the place you should be looking for people who enjoy melee, where else would you find them? Even if its not bnet, how bout trying like PGT or some other server.

Ultimo I'll show you a UMS map I'm working, but thats not the point. I'm not saying UMS is so much easier to make than melee. I'm just saying that those people quoted make it sound like UMS is way harder to make then melee.


I agree with what MA said about how you shouldnt make maps to become famous. My god, its not only about how its fun for yourself, but how it might be fun for OTHERS, and "some" people like to gain satisfaction through that. Not the fact that they get popular and have people stalk them through bnet. People do mapmake because they enjoy making maps and triggering, and being able to play it with other people.

Ultimo, why don't you make a melee map? I don't think a melee mapmaker here has said that omg UMS maps are so easy to make. They are just saying that melee maps are EQUAL to UMS maps. Melee mapmakers just want a little bit more credit in the fact that it takes more skill than UMS mapmakers think it takes to create a melee map. Also, what the hell are you talking about calling "them" inferior. He said that here MELEE maps are seen as inferior. Your reply made it sound like he was saying he called UMS maps inferior.

If you make maps for others, you should try appealing to them then. You'd be surprised how much people map make for recoginition, but they won't openly admit it, since that makes you a bad person doesn't it?

Here, I'll get some quotes stating that UMS are NOT equal to Melee, but "harder."







Wow, there is a bunch of quotes in that same topic that imply or directly say that UMS is eaiser to make. I mixed up the inferior concept. Melee map makers don't deserve more credit unless it took more skill.




And the people I quoted made it sound like UMS was eaiser to make. Double-edged sword buddy.

You make something that is equal to the required amount of skill that would make Rush! and we'll talk, as in the infamous words of Clokr_ Make me that, and I'll make you a melee map.

As you can see, the concept of "skill" is subjective, so you can't really say who's right or wrong. But please don't go prancing around saying "UMS is eaiser" to make, since it isn't. I'll agree that it could take equal skill, but not more.

Ultimo, Ulltimo, Ultimo

lol



I'm almost surely a better programmer than you are UMS map maker, and UMS map making is script kiddy pseudo programming. As a programmer, I know that it's for the most part a mechanical task, and once you manage to grasp your mind around a subject there is very little challenge in it. There are exceptions when talking about some of the more advanced design patterns, but UMS map making has nothing even remotely resembling that.

Making melee maps are completely different. You have to worry about balance for six matchups all at once (pvt, tvp, zvp, pvz, zvt, tvz), while using new concepts in the map and making sure it will be fun to play on. Plus, at the end you have to decorate it. I don't know what UMS map decorating is like, but in melee the decorations can affect gameplay (unbuildable terran, doodads), but they still have to look good.


Melee maps can gain fame if they create good maps. There are famous map makers, but the bar is higher for melee maps because more is on the line (money in many instances).

And if you think that most people play UMS maps, you are seriously out of touch. There are probably more korean (and chinese now) LT games on battle.net alone than there are UMS games, and you still have the PGTour and WGTour ladders, and other various tournaments.

Plus, there is the progaming scene in Korea, which would take too long to explain to someone who probably thinks Starcraft is dead except for UMS maps.

It's the opposite. The UMS community is the fringe one, I hate to break it to you.

I remember saying this in the MapDori news thread but i'll say it again:

To make really good UMS maps, the maker usually should have an inventive mind
To make really good Melee maps, the maker usually should have an artistic mind.

And most people here in the starcraft world aren't that artistic so i guess that's why people also prefer making ums.

but that isnt not always the case. Just how i see it sometimes

I disagree MA. Melee requires an artistic and critical mind, and UMS is only artistic.

Rofl? I never said UMS was easier to make buddy, I was saying that its equal. It depends on how much effort you put into each. Also I never really put my opinion into any of this, I was just explaining that the UMS people quoted were not giving enough credit to how hard it is to make a melee map. I never said melee maps were HARDER to make than UMS maps. I was referring to the quotes, and how they make it look like UMS is harder to make than melee.


Thats what I said, read it over more carefully dude.

Also about all this Rush! crap you are talking about, thats an extreme of UMS mapmaking. You could compare that to the Pro Melee maps out there that are used everywhere. Also why would I have to make a map such as Rush! just for you to show me a crap melee map? That doesn't seem equal to me.

No I wouldnt be surprised at how many people mapmake for recognition, because those maps they make are probably crap, and can never compare to a map that is made from a person who truly wants to create a map that people will like to play and not just spread their name around. Getting "famous" is just an added bonus to making an actual GOOD map, but to make a good map you must actually want to make something that people like.

Ihatett, UMS requires a critical mind as well. Stringing together triggers and systems are pretty hard to do.

Also I don't see why all of you brought up melee vs UMS, this topic has nothing to do with UMS, its a topic for suggestions on how to POPULARIZE MELEE, UMS shouldnt be brought into this.

Don't give in to his main point.

Good melee maps are harder to make.
Read my previous post.

Ihatett it's all subjective, but UMS mapmakers and melee mapmakers should at least respect eachother on how much skill it takes to make either type of map. Both are equally hard to do.

I forgot to mention the testing of melee maps. Pro melee maps go through actual testing, not "test my map plz!!!!!" threads.

ADDITION:


No, they really aren't. Not all things have to be equal.

Ah, you got me there. I completely forgot about them, but I was merely referring to the general populace of Battle.net, not the "elites" of Starcraft.



I suppose you're referring to me. Never did I say Starcraft survived on the pure basis of UMS, you assumed I implied that. Yes, both melee and UMS keep Starcraft alive. The general populace is composed more of UMS map makers then melee map makers, the more casual gamers.



The most decent thing you could of done was spell my name right at least 3 times in a row.

You're right about there is new challange after you've learned the "language," but that's with everything. Understanding literature doesn't seem as hard once you under the concepts behind it, it's common with everything. However, new systems are being invented in UMSing, so it still requires you to have a fair knowledge of already advanced concepts.


That got me right in the heart, I can't stand to live anymore.

I don't support either side, but I would be surprised if any of you could come to a conclusion of which is harder to make.

Is this topic going to be discussing melee vs ums maps? Will you continue to go Off Topic? Or will people start actually giving suggestions on how to popularize melee maps on SEN without getting UMS involved.

I only said all that since of this, then he quoted me. Calling me wrong just since he thinks UMS is easier, psh. Opinions and opinions, can't live with them, can't live without them.



And yes, a melee mapmaker here has said that UMS maps are eaiser to make. I have two in mind actually.

Even though Ihatett said he thinks Melee is harder to make than UMS, based on that quote it doesn't show that at all. It's just saying that those people were making comments that said UMS is way easier to make than melee, and not giving credit at all to how hard it is to make a melee map. That quote doesn't say how melee maps are easier to make than UMS maps. It says the quotes are wrong, but only because it says UMS maps are easier to make than melee maps, it doesn't have to mean melee maps are harder to make than UMS maps.

I that it's agree it is hard to compare.

But since programming isn't hard, it's time consuming, and UMS map making is just watered down programming, then melee maps are certainly harder to make.

About the time concerns: I'm sure the first release of a UMS map takes longer than the first release of a melee map, but after the rigorous testing serious maps go through I wouldn't be suprised if they took longer. Most melee maps here probably took 45 minutes, but the good ones took days-weeks, and if they were ever taken seriously they would go through weeks more of intense testing.




And that comment wasn't supposed to hit you in your heart, it was supposed to remind you (meaning the UMS community, not just you) to keep their egos in check.

The quote means it that melee maps has to be either equal or more skill then UMS maps if he thinks that UMS maps being harder then melee maps is wrong. And we already know what he thinks about the comparsion. It's implied.



You were trying to break me. The melee map making community should be keeping their egos in check too. You still shouldn't act like UMS is all but time and patience though.

Maybe we should agree to disagree

read my above post

I would also like to say that because UMS map triggers is just "watered down programming" it makes it even more of a challenge to do a relatively simple task. That is how it requires a little bit of thought.

Ihatett have you ever tried making a very complicated UMS map with original trigger systems? I haven't really seen you as ever making a UMS map.

Ultimo have you ever tried making a balanced and good Melee map? Do you even melee and know how to balance a map?

tedious tasks are not difficult ones unless you are stupid

They aren't tedious, but to figure out how to trigger something in SC does require thought

assuming that it does require thought, once you have figured it out it's done

it's a mechanical task

I have, but I haven't publicly showed anyone. I'm not much of a terrain UMS person, more of a triggester. I've read up on your melee forums for quite a bit and the comments maps recieve, aware of the fact that the map has to be very balanced for each race, as not to be unbalanced, not giving a large advantage over another race. If I tried to learn, I probably could. Wouldn't be good, but it'd take some time to get use to it.