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Staredit Network -> Serious Discussion -> same sex marrige
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Wilhelm on 2005-06-16 at 14:47:07
Ive been deliberating this little flaw I've found in the armor of "god doesn't want gays" argument. Now, let's start off with animals. The bible states animals have no soul, and very few are scientifically provable to have sentiental thought. Okay. So they're all instincts, for the most part, all of which God created when he made their design. Right? Okay. If God doesn't want there to be gay people, we can assume he doesn't want gay animals. Then why are there traits of homosexuality in quite a good deal of species? Not all of which are particularly intelligent, mind you. Dogs, cats, deer, buffalo, deer, wolves, elephants, sheep, elk, and some birds, and a good deal of apes as well. In fact, there's probably a good deal more species that exhibit same sex attraction. Now, I'm not saying they fit the gay stereotype, (no, there aren't male elephants wearing pink, skintight pants dancing around shirtless and talking with a lisp, and there aren't that many gay humans either, so go to hell), they actually perform in sexual activity with members of the same sex. So what now? Marriage is between a man and a woman? So your religion should control a government which states, in it's undenialable rules, that Congress shall make no law governing religion, meaning you can even be free from it. So, that means... shut the hell up.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by TheDaddy0420 on 2005-06-16 at 21:17:33
great point, but allowing same sex marriage may incourage more people to become gay, which I feel is wrong. Gay people are fine, I jst don't think it should be incouraged. In some elementry schools, children are getting picture books that display gay couples. I have a problem with that, let the kid have a fricken childhood! When he gets into high school or middle school intoduce it then.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by EzDay281 on 2005-06-16 at 21:36:19
A- *sigh* Explain how it'll encourage homosexuality, please.
And also, explain why that would be bad. Unless it's just one of those inherantly bad things that shouldn't be done for absolutely no reason at all!

B- How does showing kids that there's nothing wrong with doing something that doesn't effect anyone else taking away their "childhood"? I have seen this compared to racial(black/white) discrimination many times, many of them by me, and I still haven't seen anyone say that they're invalid, let alone how so...
And, as such, if we were to take away any books that don't say "GAY IS TEH BAAAAD!!!", we might as well take away all books that represent blacks as equal to whites.

If you want to take something out of a kid's life, than how about you take out the bullshit first?
EDIT: Note, that the above sentence is not in any way a reference to my "blacks as equal to whites." argument.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by TheDaddy0420 on 2005-06-17 at 02:45:45
I was speaking from a parents point of view. I don't want my 6-10 year old son coming home today and saying, "Hello daddy, look at this book my teacher gave me *opens pages* see here is a lesbian, and here is a homosexual" Personnally, I feel that children at that age are TOO young to have matrial like that. I said I would rather have that matrial introduced when they are at an age of discovering themselfs (teenage years) and your telling me thats a bad thing?

When I mean encourage, I mean I think it could possibly, key word, possibly encourage people to become gay. And when I mean encourasge Im thinking "Hey COME ON AND BE GAY, its so SUPER" And being gay is unnatural to me, the basic life of EVERY SINGLE ORGANISM on this planet is strive to reproduce and have off spring. Male+Male= no children, Female+Female=no children, Male+Female=children. Having a male human and a female human is the only way to naturally produce a child.

And Ezday2, why FORCE something into a child's life? mmmmm

also, why do YOU think its ok to show LITTLE CHILDREN about this stuff when they barely understand anything at all at those ages, and if some do understand this, WHY burden them with the stress of wondering if he/she is gay or not. A 7 year old wondering if he is gay or not disturbs me.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Wilhelm on 2005-06-17 at 04:31:14
It's not forcing it into their lives. It's same sex marriage, not "put gay everywhere, in the books in school, on television on every show and channel". Marriage isn't so wonderful anyway, but you can't encourage someone to become gay. It's a hell of alot more enviromental factors then that, so your fears are errational. All it will encourage is for closeted homosexuals to come out, and for people to become more comfortable with it. Read my post again, STARS, there are alot of ANIMALS that are homosexual. ANIMALS, you know, 50% of the idea of "natural". Not just in zoos, so don't bother saying "domestication!!", because there are dozens of species that exhibit same sex attractions in the wild. If you can say something that animals do is unnatural because a book wrriten two thousand years ago says so... well, looks like someone isn't the most progressive thinker. Just because gays are getting married doesn't mean everyone is going to have be told this and that about it. All you have to change is "When two people love each otheer very much". And besides, only 10% of the population is gay, and it's not contagious, (AND IT'S NOT A BIRTH DEFECT, FOR THE LAST FREAKING TIME), and even if your nightmare comes to life, it's might raise the number to 30%... but since when do we need more people?! Six hundred billion people is a bit too many..
Report, edit, etc...Posted by pimpinelephant on 2005-06-17 at 06:04:47
why is everybody saying if God didn't want gays then He would would never had made them exist? the truth is, this is what i have learned, that God cannot control your freewill, like in the movie Bruce Almighty, good movie biggrin.gif
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Wilhelm on 2005-06-17 at 08:24:02
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!><!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! READ MY POSTS RIGHT ABOVE YOURS, GOD DAMN IT!! IT'S NOT WHAT I SAID!!!!!!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-06-17 at 11:04:50
I personally don't see gay marriage as something wonderful. Not because I'm christian, but really for their own good...

I mean, what are these people hoping to achieve out of their marriages? Is it worth it? Because as you all know, gay's are relentlessly mowed down with mockery and ridicules by other people (sadly that's the way life works.) "THAT'S GAY... U'RE GAY... THIS IS FOR GAYS.... etc." If two gays get married, it could happen where they're gonna go everywhere and say "Hey look! We're married!" and then instantly be showered with taunts. Or if they apply for something (where it requires your marriage licence or w/e), the people would be like "wtf.. you guys are weird...." And also when they adopt a child, that child is going to be severely taunted by other kids "HAHA! Your parents are gay... you're gonna be gay like them!"

So really, if gays get married, they're going to make their "gay relationship" public, therefore exposing them to more taunts and rejections.

If these gays don't mind all this stuff, then it's great! But if they do mind... sux for them tongue.gif
Report, edit, etc...Posted by EzDay281 on 2005-06-17 at 11:39:21
EDIT: In response to Millenium:
QUOTE
I mean, what are these people hoping to achieve out of their marriages?

Well, I've never looked it up so I understand that I could be wrong, but as I understand it, married couples gain plenty of benefits from state and government.

QUOTE
I don't want my 6-10 year old son coming home today and saying, "Hello daddy, look at this book my teacher gave me *opens pages* see here is a lesbian, and here is a homosexual"

That's completely different.
I never said anything about books in which the subject is being gay, only that I see nothing wrong with books with gays in them.

QUOTE
Personnally, I feel that children at that age are TOO young to have matrial like that.

Again, I ask you, explain your reasoning.

QUOTE
I said I would rather have that matrial introduced when they are at an age of discovering themselfs (teenage years) and your telling me thats a bad thing?

No, I'm telling you it's not a bad thing to not hide it from them earlier.
Teaching about it specificaly and revealing it are completely different things.

QUOTE
When I mean encourage, I mean I think it could possibly, key word, possibly encourage people to become gay.

Right. And Starcraft could "possibly encourage" people to go and kill people. Or those GTA games. But I don't believe there's anything wrong with them, because their effect is minimal.
To quote you: "key word, possibly".

QUOTE
And when I mean encourasge Im thinking "Hey COME ON AND BE GAY, its so SUPER"

No one ever said anything at all about doing that.
Refer to my argument above the last.

QUOTE
And being gay is unnatural to me

... pinch.gif
Pay Some Attention... -_-

QUOTE
And Ezday2, why FORCE something into a child's life? mmmmm

How is letting it be okay "forcing" it in someone's life? Does it even matter??

QUOTE
also, why do YOU think its ok to show LITTLE CHILDREN about this stuff when they barely understand anything at all at those ages, and if some do understand this, WHY burden them with the stress of wondering if he/she is gay or not. A 7 year old wondering if he is gay or not disturbs me.

Why would I not think that it's okay to show them 'about this stuff'?
"Mommy mommy my teacher showed me a book that had a gay in it! She's corrupting my childhood!!"
... I don't think that will happen...
"Barely understand anything at all at those ages"... What the crap does that have to do with it?
"...and if some do understand this, WHY burden them with the stress of wondering if he/she likes pizza or not. A 7 year old wondering if he likes pizza or not disturbs me."

Second to lastly, all your reasons for not censoring homosexuality being bad could also be turned around... except for one;
We should ban all books from upto 5th-grade schooling that show a man and woman that are married.
In fact, they shouldn't ever see a someone wiht a boy/girlfriend or spouse!
They don't know about this stuff!
Hell, let's make them not know that there's any difference in males and females other then appearance! They're too young to know about this stuff!!

And lastly...
It seems to me that them being ignorant of even the possibility of loving someone of the same gender in anything more than a family-way is part of the cause of discrimination against gays:
They see absolutely nothing about the concept, then in 4th grade they hear about it or see someone being called "gay" and ask what it is.
It seems unnatural, but they've never been told that, in this case, it's not an inherantly bad thing, it must have been hidden from them for a reason! Because it's "bad"!
Or, of course, if all their friends are using "gay" as an insult for the same reason as above.
It's kind of hard to teach someone that it's not inherantly bad if you hide it from them until they're getting near their idiot-years(middle school).
And no, I'm not talking about teaching about it in particular, just not hiding.
As I said before, focusing on something and not hiding it are completely different matters, but you STARS seem to keep confusing them.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by SoulVision- on 2005-06-17 at 14:52:30
Scariest thing of the whole matter is at least 2 of the people posting in this topic will indeed be homosexual and engaged in a same sex marriage in the later years. Ew.

ADDITION:
Scariest thing of the whole matter is at least 2 of the people posting in this topic will indeed be homosexual and engaged in a same sex marriage in the later years. Ew.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by warhammer40000 on 2005-06-17 at 15:26:42
S.T.A.R.S.Chris, about incouraging it. Your wrong, read ShadowBrood's post. It's more of a your gay or not thing, man.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MapUnprotector on 2005-06-17 at 15:29:14
Have there been any studies to show what happens to kids who grow up in a gay family with 2 fathers, and see if it influences the kid at all?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by timmy8586 on 2005-06-17 at 15:47:39
The kid would obviously be made fun of alot in school if everyone found out. Other than that, it's the either you're gay or you're not. Unless you think you are and you aren't... but that's psychological stuff.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by SpaceBoy2000 on 2005-06-17 at 16:03:55
That is true. Honestly, I do pick on the guys that are gay. Then again, I pick on people for being white too. Then again, it's not a "I beat the living shit out of you" kind of thing, more like a "Damn it, just because you're gay doesn't mean you have to bring a purse!"

I do think that some guys will get the living shit beat out of them for being gay. It's because they're different and all. Same thing probably happened when blacks were given equal rights. The main thing here is that does it matter if people are gay? Does it matter if our children learn that some people are different from the norm and like people of the same gender?

Personally, I think this should be really taught to kids when they are first taught about sexuality. Mainly because little kids probably won't know much about the concept of sexuality, and that they should really be taught about gays when they are taught about sexuality. They'll probably learn of gays before they learn what sexuality is, but hey, we all knew what sex is before we learnt what sexuality is. Well, for me anyways.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Loser_Musician on 2005-06-17 at 18:48:52
QUOTE(pimpinelephant @ Jun 17 2005, 05:04 AM)
why is everybody saying if God didn't want gays then He would would never had made them exist? the truth is, this is what i have learned, that God cannot control your freewill, like in the movie Bruce Almighty, good movie biggrin.gif
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Great movie, but the whole, "Let's not let every know that you're god." part made me want to go over and just bitch slap the writer. Cause if every one saw god, there would still be freewill. Do people not understand this?

As for the gay thing, ya I agree with mill. (Which is kinda like what I said before)

We have a gay couple that lives right next door to us, and we sometimes mock them behind their back every once in a while. I feel bad, but the jokes are just so damn funny.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by warhammer40000 on 2005-06-17 at 18:57:57
QUOTE(Alpha(MC) @ Jun 17 2005, 06:48 PM)
Great movie, but the whole, "Let's not let every know that you're god." part made me want to go over and just bitch slap the writer. Cause if every one saw god, there would still be freewill. Do people not understand this?
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Then people would be begging him to grant his wishes. The god must remain hidden. Or at least talk from nowhere. (Im refering to the Old Testament.)
Report, edit, etc...Posted by ShadowBrood on 2005-06-17 at 19:50:07
QUOTE(SoulVision- @ Jun 15 2005, 07:54 PM)
Well Im already prepared to be flamed but I say to hell with Same-Sex Marriages.  Just imagine the whole world, all of us gay.  No one would be born...no one would live.  God created a man to love a woman, not a man to love a man or woman to love a woman.  Just my opinon, but when it DOES come down to it, as long as they dont personally affect me, I could care less either.
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So why are gays here? God didn't create them? Satan did? I'm sorry, but Satan cannot create life, he was banished and never had that kind of power. God however, did. Therefore, God created gays so you disproved yourself tongue.gif
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MapUnprotector on 2005-06-17 at 19:54:21
Lets not bring "God" into this

What if when we were just starting to evolve everyone was gay, maybe now we would be able to reproduce asexually and clone ourselves.

QUOTE
So why are gays here?


Why is anything here? We shouldn't trouble ourselves with other peoples preferences. They don't affect us.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by warhammer40000 on 2005-06-17 at 19:57:44
I dont get you people. "IF THE WHOLE WORLD WAS GAY WE COULDNT REPRODUCE!!!" ...were not all gonna be gay if gay marriage is legalized!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MapUnprotector on 2005-06-17 at 20:02:29
QUOTE
I dont get you people. "IF THE WHOLE WORLD WAS GAY WE COULDNT REPRODUCE!!!" ...were not all gonna be gay if gay marriage is legalized!


I wasn't mentioning gay marriage getting legalized. You kind of took it out of context. I was just wondering if somehow we weren't able to reproduce with those of the other sex would we evolve a way to survive and continue to reproduce?

Anyway I think that humans are too complex too genetically complex to reproduce asexually, and plus I think reproducing sexually has more benefits like swapping genes and all.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by TheDaddy0420 on 2005-06-17 at 20:34:42
QUOTE(Theoretical_Human @ Jun 17 2005, 12:31 AM)
It's not forcing it into their lives. It's same sex marriage, not "put gay everywhere, in the books in school, on television on every show and channel". Marriage isn't so wonderful anyway, but you can't encourage someone to become gay. It's a hell of alot more enviromental factors then that, so your fears are errational.  All it will encourage is  for closeted homosexuals to come out, and for people to become more comfortable with it. Read my post again, STARS, there are alot of ANIMALS that are homosexual. ANIMALS, you know, 50% of the idea of "natural". Not just in zoos, so don't bother saying "domestication!!", because there are dozens of species that exhibit same sex attractions in the wild. If you can say something that animals do is unnatural because a book wrriten two thousand years ago says so... well, looks like someone isn't the most progressive thinker. Just because gays are getting married doesn't mean everyone is going to have be told this and that about it. All you have to change is "When two people love each otheer very much". And besides, only 10% of the population is gay, and it's not contagious, (AND IT'S NOT A BIRTH DEFECT, FOR THE LAST FREAKING TIME), and even if your nightmare comes to life, it's might raise the number to 30%... but since when do we need more people?! Six hundred billion people is a bit too many..
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(birth defect) Actually it is, my biology teacher was talking for some reason about why some organisms go after the same sex. It has to do with some strand in your brain, in males its short and in females its long. If a male is born with that strand too long he will have urges to go after males during his life time. Same for females.

Plus I was never debating with you in the first place.

If a school teacher gives and young child a book about homosexuals, and gives them out to her/his entire class, thats not forcing them to look at it? They are 6-10 year olds.....

and we have around 6 billion people, not 6 hundred billion, I think that was a typo on your part.
QUOTE(EzDay2 @ Jun 17 2005, 07:39 AM)
EDIT: In response to Millenium:

Well, I've never looked it up so I understand that I could be wrong, but as I understand it, married couples gain plenty of benefits from state and government.
That's completely different.
I never said anything about books in which the subject is being gay, only that I see nothing wrong with books with gays in them.
Again, I ask you, explain your reasoning.
No, I'm telling you it's not a bad thing to not hide it from them earlier.
Teaching about it specificaly and revealing it are completely different things.
Right. And Starcraft could "possibly encourage" people to go and kill people. Or those GTA games. But I don't believe there's anything wrong with them, because their effect is minimal.
To quote you: "key word, possibly".
No one ever said anything at all about doing that.
Refer to my argument above the last.
... pinch.gif
Pay Some Attention... -_-
How is letting it be okay "forcing" it in someone's life? Does it even matter??
Why would I not think that it's okay to show them 'about this stuff'?
"Mommy mommy my teacher showed me a book that had a gay in it! She's corrupting my childhood!!"
... I don't think  that will happen...
"Barely understand anything at all at those ages"...  What the crap does that have to do with it?
"...and if some do understand this, WHY burden them with the stress of wondering if he/she likes pizza or not. A 7 year old wondering if he likes pizza or not disturbs me."

Second to lastly, all your reasons for not censoring homosexuality being bad could also be turned around... except for one;
We should ban all books from upto 5th-grade schooling that show a man and woman that are married.
In fact, they shouldn't ever see a someone wiht a boy/girlfriend or spouse!
They don't know about this stuff!
Hell, let's make them not know that there's any difference in males and females other then appearance! They're too young to know about this stuff!!

And lastly...
It seems to me that them being ignorant of even the possibility of loving someone of the same gender in anything more than a family-way is part of the cause of discrimination against gays:
They see absolutely nothing about the concept, then in 4th grade they hear about it or see someone being called "gay" and ask what it is.
It seems unnatural, but they've never been told that, in this case, it's not an inherantly bad thing, it must have been hidden from them for a reason! Because it's "bad"!
Or, of course, if all their friends are using "gay" as an insult for the same reason as above.
It's kind of hard to teach someone that it's not inherantly bad if you hide it from them until they're getting near their idiot-years(middle school).
And no, I'm not talking about teaching about it in particular, just not hiding.
As I said before, focusing on something and not hiding it are completely different matters, but you STARS seem to keep confusing them.
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Why do you think sex ed starts at a specific grade? mmmm BECUASE THATS WHEN THE CHILDREN ARE OLD ENOUGH to learn it. Im not saying censor this matrial completely, Im saying if your going to teach these kids about gays, teach them when they are at an older age and not when they still watch barney (example).

You guys obviously don't think as a parent would/should and you guys always talk about logic this and being smart and such (in other topics) These children don't know what logic means, they don't have good reasoning skills.

MY POINT: Teach children about this topic at older ages and not when they are 6-10 years of age.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by EzDay281 on 2005-06-17 at 20:51:02
QUOTE
mmmm BECUASE THATS WHEN THE CHILDREN ARE OLD ENOUGH to learn it.

Though slightly off-topic, to explain my thinking, I would have to disagree with that belief.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MapUnprotector on 2005-06-17 at 21:33:59
QUOTE(S.T.A.R.S-Chris @ Jun 17 2005, 08:34 PM)
(birth defect) Actually it is, my biology teacher was talking for some reason about why some organisms go after the same sex.  It has to do with some strand in your brain, in males its short and in females its long.  If a male is born with that strand too long he will have urges to go after males during his life time.  Same for females.

Plus I was never debating with you in the first place.

If a school teacher gives and young child a book about homosexuals, and gives them out to her/his entire class, thats not forcing them to look at it?  They are 6-10 year olds.....

and we have around 6 billion people, not 6 hundred billion, I think that was a typo on your part.
Why do you think sex ed starts at a specific grade? mmmm BECUASE THATS WHEN THE CHILDREN ARE OLD ENOUGH  to learn it.  Im not saying censor this matrial completely, Im saying if your going to teach these kids about gays, teach them when they are at an older age and not when they still watch barney (example).

You guys obviously don't think as a parent would/should and you guys always talk about logic this and being smart and such (in other topics) These children don't know what logic means, they don't have good reasoning skills. 

MY POINT:  Teach children about this topic at older ages and not when they are 6-10 years of age.
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I just though it started at older ages, because it's not real important at a younger age, they aren't even going through puberty yet so it would be useless to teach them at a young age.

I have an idea, we can sterilize people who aren't worthy like the Nazis did in WWII.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by SpaceBoy2000 on 2005-06-18 at 00:19:59
I think STARS is referring to the books they give to grade one-ish kids that are about gays. I personally think that is a bit too early - try around grade 6-8.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by warhammer40000 on 2005-06-18 at 00:22:48
Talk...about...it? Why.... ugh, you people. "Class, today were learning about queers." What?
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