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I wouldn't be talking to you if I wasn't taking you seriously. Nice disconnect btw. awsome.




Hey now hey now, lets look at all the hallmark games of all time and see that cheapness indeed does win it and is how life is. Fighting games: Oh what is that? sagat from sf having the best priority in most of his moves? What was that Cable from mvc2 with his one mistake = win strategy? How about using the ultimate golems from the Golems mass series? Oh what? Did I hear a 9999/9999 golem spawn? Or how about the cheap strategies in TCGs like the broken rain dance deck from pokemon? Eh? Eh? A turn two blastoise fully powered? Or how about the ravenger from Magic? An overpowered monster that just never dies or wastes its power. Or those 4 move blitzenkreg games from chess? Eh? Eh? Im sure cheap is definitely a part of tons of games and will be a huge part of life. Cheapness is there because its so powerful.

Thanks for the quotes. =) I can see where and what you are rebutting.


Oh yea, whats that picture you got there? Looks really cool! Did you draw it?

I havent ^.^ nor an rp.



Thats Because His were litterally bounds. nothing new was brought in with those maps.

In every RPG i have played in, you pay as a single character in a 3rd person [perpective, upgrading and the like. Thus the name Role Playing Game, because your pretending to be someone/something else.

The Rp was based off the RPG, but has changed immensly. Enough to 'warrant' it a seperate spot.

In rp's, you can be one singular character, or you can control vast armies, whether in futuristic times or ancient. YOu can be a real estate agent, you can be a drug dealer, you can be a king, you can be a wizard, you can be an entire multi-billion dollar multi national corporation. Wow. funny ive never seen a an rpg let you do that



Thats an incredibly overrated statement. Denying an rp as not being a rpg is not denying its existence, its making its point to get its own section stronger.

Denying rp's never had anything to do with rpg's would be denying their existence.

Setting up an rp as a branch under rpg would be just as much work. so its okay for the (to say in your words) "DLDB keepers who constantly work their butts off" to place a new category under rpg's, but not beside? It seems you are the one who is not playing fair.You act is if you're defending rpg's, like we said something bad about them. Now your trying to prove superiority by making rp's be placed under rpg's, as a symbol of dominance.

Now you awe-inspiring rebuttle will come, and no doubt be full of most of the same 'stuff' that was in the last few pages of this thread.

So are you saying that rps are some new universe thats never been explored before?

Are you saying that its something big huge gimungous?

Is it really that different from an rpg, I mean literally... the way you described an rp made it sound like... a sim... its not a sim is it? I guess we should put it under sims, oh no wait wait, theres no sims section... why? because a sim is an rpg as well. Well now hm, thats strange, I wonder why sims doesn't have its own section, its wierd.. oh oh what? Ohh because sims is similar enough to rpgs that it fits under it. Now gee golly who woulda thunka that?




Firstly you said all the same thing anyway, you are simply shuffling the words into your favor.

Secondly, I don't defend rpgs, I say rps are rpgs.

Why would placing rps under rpgs proving superiority? Does putting trance under "new age" make trance underrated and new age superior to it? Does putting a pomeranian under the mixed breeds make pure breeds superior to mixed breeds? Does putting anything under any category make it insuperior to the above? NO. Get over it, it isn't some moral issue or superiority act. Its merely putting it somewhere. Should we throw them in some new folder? No. Everything needs to be arranged accordingly. RPG/Rp.

Im only using rpgs in here because... rpgs are literally rps... and vice versa... whats so hard about that?

The DLDB people really do have a hard time man, it took like a week to get my map up there, why? Because they were working really hard to get all the other maps filtered though. You should see all the hard work they put into it. I managed webpages as well, oh man it was an extreme challenge just to keep it up by myself, sure sen has many helping hands, but really... it was tuff stuff.



So what are they wise guy? It seems all the descriptions you gave me were exactly like what an rpg is. A role playing game. How simliar is that? two of the words that are in RP match with RPG, and the only extra word really that rpg has is the "Game" part... what isn't a game in starcraft? really now...

You are denying that its what it is... an rpg, what else is it? I bet you can't even use any similarities that describe an rpg to describe an rp. You can easily describe an a racing game from a sports game... but rp to rpg? Theres just no difference. Both let you role play, both let you be something you are not, both are the same.



Wow... ive actually played a few online rpgs that let you do that. And a few rpgs for starcraft that let you do that too, they werent RPs, they were RPGS.

RP = Role Playing
RPG=Role Playing Game...

Looks kinda the same doesn't it?



Oh and because you are all into that superior thing:


Bounds > RP. [/sarcasm]

I hope that proved a point that you are merely stating vague opinions with no real hard facts whatsoever. Pfft, rp lets you do this rp lets you do that... really? And what about all the millions of rpgs that let you do that same thing? Eh? Eh?

Look at fable on xbox, its an open ended game that lets you do just about anything, kill just about anyone, do just about anything, talk to just about anyone, learn just about any skill, upgrade just about anything, and fight for just about any side. Sounds like an rp huh? Oh whats this whats this? Whats this little tag on there that says, oh what? RPG. boom.

Haha, I guess so. That is true, but then again, that's why I no longer play the golem games I once really enjoyed. When people take the available cheapness to the next level, so to speak, of retardedness there is no fun. I dislike joining a golems game that will be won in 2 minutes, the time it takes someone cheap to enter a combo. I don't like playing a fighting game when my opponent won't stop using the same invincible uncounterable move. Of the LotRish games on SC I really enjoy the FF8 Neverending war by SmokemastaJ as compared to others such like WoT WoP mainly because there are no stupid and annoying stratagies experenced players can and do use to totally destroy my base defenses and main spawns before I even get a chance to hotkey my spawner and locate my primary heros. Cheapness Is present in life and it is used, as you say because it is so powerful a tool. However I do not respect the overuse of cheapness in such supposedly friendly competitive gameplay. As a result of rude power players in the WoTWoP games I have never learned how to properly play. As relating to Rps, the cheap factor is ever so important, as you are given more power than any other map type. You have to use responsibly. This is what I meant by saying I don't put up with it.

I agree with this statement.

Yes, yes we are. Mwhahaha. No not really, it's just a different type of map within SC itself. That's what I mean.

YES, essentially a rp IS an rpg BUT The difference, as www.com.au said above, is the change within the structure. That change is enough to separate the rp from the rpg. This is why the term rp was created. It is essentially the Exact same thing as rpg like you say But the term rp was given it to difrenciate each map from the other. I believe sticking all the rp maps into the rp folder is a fine idea, but then the standard accepted definition of SC RPG is nothing like the RP. people would dl it and say something like "Wtf is this crap? Im not playing this Sh**! This is not an rpg!" These reactions oft make one want to slap there foreheads and sigh but they do happen nonetheless. Your arguements are valid but mine aren't neccessarily invalid because of this. In truth, the rp takes alot of getting used to. A veteran roleplayer with experience in normal RPGs and dnd maps and rp experience offline would have little problem adjusting, but people like my old self who have had no previous rp exp. would be quite lost when playing their first game of Rp SC.


...you are smart so think about it. Rp's are rpgs, yes? But what you are saying here, after the first sentence, does not make much sense. Soccer and Football are both sports yes but they are not the same game. That's the difference here.


a sim is more technical as I see it. An Rp can be like this but doesn't neccesarily have to be. Sim Ant, sim city, the Sims, all simulate some aspect of life or something other. The Rp can do this but it's usually used for more intensive storytelling. You and I should Rp sometime. It would be fun.

Also, what do you mean by nice disconnect? Thanks but I was just not sure what you meant.
I got my picture off a random anime site when I was looking up info on a show called Loveless. I love the artwork so I'm useing it but I don't know much about the actual show. I'm not good enough to draw something that good myself. I do draw but so far I've not gotten into colors. If you're really interested I could email you all the other avatars I got off the site. I would simply tell you site address but I don't remember and I couldn't find the site when I tried later to locate it.

The only thing I see wrong about RP maps and them having their own section is the lack of them...
This might be because replayabillity factors for their maps.. Maybe they don't have to make new versions?
Or.... The maps are not popuplar. Either way, it would be a bit easier for the RPing people to find the maps. I say SEN breaks up other into a few catagories.

yeah more people play RPs than i expected...

In my opinion, RPs are just a fast way to make a RPG like an editor (maybe a buggy one, which is why players dislike people who abuse those bugs like massing units and upgrades, which were meant to be for other things). Since they are like that, I think it should really be in RPGs like whoever suggested this said



It really wouldn't make sense for it to be outside of RPGs, since if it's like an editor it really can't make a defense or a bound, but still shouldn't be stuck in RPGs with nothing else because it would be dumb to find things like Starforge and SCMD in the Use map settings maps instead of editors.

Rp's aren't really a fast way to make rpgs. You might say one of the rp's uses is as a pre-rpg experiment but that's not the usual use. I've often tested out ideas by rping but most of time I'm having fun weaving a story through the character interaction between myself and my friends. We've been talking alot about what the rp really is.

For one thing, Rps are maps not editors though they do resemble them, so the point is moot anyway, but where are you coming from here? You say two different things in the same sentence. -_-

Many more people play rps than ever before. Alot of them are good at it too. ^_^

What do you system moderators and DLDB people think? Where should we go with this?

Of course I know they aren't actually editors, but they are still fairly similar to them. Really when you think about it, it just gets an RPG built quickly, as though it is a project that a few people are working on, then playing (yes I know it isn't actually this, but it's still the same idea). When I said two things, I think I didn't really explain it correctly:

I still dont get it.

and the fact that your calling it an rpg editor is another difference between the rp and the rpg. So so far everyone who doesn't want rps to have thier own section, has reached the point that rp's are, editors for rpg's, sims games, can make anything, a game for massing or something.. and theres tons more.. already in the first 2 descriptions its different from a rpg. Let alone the rest. Dear god this is like serious discussion.. with more stubborn people *cough*



Yes. And as i stated several times above, that is because it evolved from rpg's.

You keep making references to other things with sub-categories, as if it means something. We are discussing rp's, not dogs.



We've had as many hard facts as you. But wait, because their coming from you it makes them more "hard" then ours? funny that?



Every game in starcraft makes you be something youre not. thats considered roleplaying. Should we now put everything under rpg's because you used that excuse?



Im running a website right now. only about 50 members. But i have about 2 moderators tha help. that more than enough. You're right though, it isnt easy.

Once again i state that you think its ok for them to work extra by putting a sub-category under rpg's, but not above them? You just dont want to answer the question do you?

You think when i said acheiving individual dominance, that i ment something larger?

In lamans terms: If rp's go under rpg's, you win. Thats why you're trying so hard.

At least we view your point un-biased, but often what you say double folds to go our way as well. then you bend something we say about rp's, without even thinking what we meant and using it to your own advantage. But no thats what im doing right?



Im guessing your joking when you say litterally. lmfao. You've said yourself there is differences. But wait! that would mean theyre not Litterally RPG's now wouldnt it? SHOCK!

Soccer and football are different of course, but... if we were to categorize soccer and football we wouldn't throw them into two different categories would we? NO! We put them in sports because uh? They are both sports?



I said literally because if I didn't, it would have been a close ended thought.
They aren't exactly the same because of the "game" word at the end.



If I could have it my way, I would. Why? Because it easier that way. Its not an excuse. Theres a defining feature that sets them apart. AND for rps? Nothing at all. Sure there are different things and features, but really, what is it in general? A role playing game. Can you pls give me a description of rp that doesn't describe an rpg? Beyond infinite play? Beyond added features? Anything at all? Anything? I thought so.




Wow there was nothing different about those two descriptions (I couldn't find more then one description btw) that can DRASTICALLY set it beyond rpgs. All rp's are, are really just rpgs with advanced options, open ended play, and alot of different features. Thats it.



I wasn't speaking literally hard evidence... -_- Hard evidence meaning real evidence. Evidence that can really be used. Calling it something that can magically bring forth a new revolution to the starcraft world if we have it in the dldb has no hard evidence whatsoever. What guarntees that there will be this new uprising?



Yes I go to the dldb and dl a bunch of maps that don't seem to fit in there, but hey man, they technically fit. Come on now, bounds, defense bound isn't really a bound but hey its a bound right? I didn't want to play a defense but hey its in there because its a what? Bound.

"Wtf is this crap? Its not an rpg?" The heck is it then? The only other section that it can really fit in is: the garbage, if you say its not an rpg (which it is).



One uses other things to help aid someone in understanding something complex or to prove a point, apparently you are as easy to enlighten as turning a terriblly rusty doornob that lacks major oil.

Im using sub cateories because it entices complex thought and helps fully see the situation... unless you want me to humor you like a child...




Lack of them indeed. Once you've played one, you've basically played them all. Any time I play an rp I usually use it to attempt glitches and what not. Now thats fun.



I do not play rps, after I placed it twice I kinda just snuffed it. Whats the point to play a game that has no victory or defeat? Is that even considered a game anymore?




Can you please stop stringing me around the same ol' things we already talked about and get to points that count so that this section can be added to the dldb? Oh wait, terriblly sorry, there are no other reasons beyond the fact that they are called RP instead of RPG.

Its strange how you didn't rebute my stronger arguments, I wonder why? Fable, fable, fable!





(As a final note: Ive never seen a new section advocation for downloading maps suceed before. Gl with this... If it does become a new section, im gonna advocate to have billions of different categories because the differences from an rp and an rpg is so very miniscule. Im not being hard headed about this, its just how it is seen... what else defines it as something else anyway? If you put it as a sub category to an rpg I would fully understand, but to make it a whole new genre? Thats a joke...)

what has been said has been said. i cant think you can bring up anything else....

maybe we should make a poll?

I was about to say that, but then again, only a select few will participate... -_-
Everyone else doesn't want a say in this.

I just say we do it.. honestly, it isn't that big of a deal. (Seriously, it's gotten to a point where I don't even read the long posts.)

I agree with Rain. First, RP's run on the players, not what the Map maker put in the map, and that means you can do just about anything. Second, the only reson most rps suck and burn are because of newbs not listening to the rule other players agree to.

I once explained to a friend:

In a rp each person creates a story, then everyone figures out how everyone interacts, who changes the world and forms it. But, with only two people rping, eventually, both of you will become so acustomed to what each other will do that it becomes boring. By that token, each person is like a spider weaving a trail, and the more people (or spiders?) weaving, the bigger and more complex the web will become. And if that web somehow translates to your life it becomes more meaningful than just playing through a map where you only put you effort, but no thought into.

Rps are the most complicated maps to learn, and (possibly) to make.

ADDITION:
Oh, sorry, but RPGS and RP's are different but for one thing:

In an RPG, even with multiple endings, it'll always be limited to those endings and nothing more.
In an rp what if it ends with the world gone, everyone on different planets and places? Rps are what you and your companions make it.
An rpg is what one guy or a team thought of that is Linear.

(Also, instead of playing the game (In RPG) in RP you make the game and play it yourself.)

YOU MAKE NO SENSE! If you would just PLAY an rp game for real you Would SEE that there ARE MANY DIFFERENCES. Can I not ever convince you that rps are Different. Read Infested-Jerk's wise and compelling words of explanation and you shall understand all. There are major differences in the Map type. That's my point, so get it already Please. -_- you cant argue that rp's aren't different if you've actually ever played one with some good players.

YES, your post says it all infested-jerk! Read his post and Understand!


That's what I said.. So, why are you echoing what I said and saying that what I said, which you said is wrong, is right when you say it yet is wrong when I say it? Your arguement skills just suffered a relapse because you didn't think through what I was saying, or so it seems. T_T I KNOW Rpgs are rps, BUT they still aren't the same type of SC map type, You MUST Agree to this if you have ANY rp experience. I have said I don't mind if they're listed under rpgs. What I want is for everyone to recognize the fact that RPs are DIFFERENT THAN THE RPG. Why? Because they ARE DIFFERENT. As football is different from soccer, they are both sports yet they are different games. There shoudn't be any problem with the understanding of this point now. The common outlook on the status of the rp here and the fact that they aren't always submitted to the same location tell us that the status of the rp has been unclear. I believe we have established the fact that rp's ARE Rpgs more than they are Others. So I believe either this matter should be officiated and watched out for in the future or a separate rp folder should be created in the DLDB. It works for me both ways as Rps will now hold there own place within the folds of the SEN community.

Excuse my wiseguy moment, but RPG's and RP's are different, for one, RP has no G in the name.

Second, the DLDB already needs an overhaul, maybe not total but some changes are going to happen, and an extra one (while time extensive) shouldn't be too much of a burden. The DLDB keepers should already know that their work is time consuming but it has to be done (Or staredit suddenly just becomes another SC forum with no resources that'll draw mappers)

Third, I challenge anyone to play the best rpg that they can find, and beat it. Then, get a good common rp, and play it through to the end (if you can avoid the noobs ). I bet you'll beat the rpg but have no clue about rping because you actually have to create what happens.

(Good) Rp maps are masterpieces in themselves, just because of the sheer amount of possibileties. Many tricks like the landed-but-floating trick were discovered in rps.

They weren't discovered in rps, they are only majorly used in rps.

Rps are not difficult to make, they are just time consuming.

There is no point to play a whole rp though because if you were to play one through (taking into account any random events you could create) there would be no end to the game cause something magical keeps happening that extends the game...

I might as well go advocate that bound defenses are not bounds because "they play alot differently from how a [bound] plays." And that bound control should not be in the bounds section because they play alot "differently from how a [bound] plays."






I still don't see what makes it so different from rpgs. If you are advocating that they play differently... then oh boy you sure are digging yourself in a hole you cannot get yourself out of. All maps play differently, all maps have some different intent to them. YET all maps have something that define themselves and places them somewhere. But what is it that puts them into a certain genre? Obviously their similarities to other games of course. The similarities for an rp to an rpg are uncanny. I mean, golems is SO FRIGGIN INSANELY different from evolves, but they all go under the mass genre because they both involve massive battles. Rp should go under rpg (or under a branch of rpg) because they both roleplay, they are both roleplaying games... are they not? Whats so hard about accepting that?





Ive never played a true game where you have to create such time consuming and pointless actual events that have no meaning whatsoever and have no reason with no definite beginning or end. If text messages were saved during a replay then id understand... but if everything is just deleted after you leave the game... whats the point? Are you merely running around in your own imaginations for no point whatsoever?












There are no differences from rps and rpgs in your explaination. These are only different WAYS TO PLAY the game, not a whole new different game type! Different ways to play a game usually throw the map into a similar genre. Evolves and golems play different! They are the same genre are they not?

Hey, this is getting interesting ^_^!


I believe what he meant is that GOOD Rps that are innovative and/or contains well thought out terrain that lends itself to mutiple designs plus inspirational unit names and other interesting features are hard to make.


An Rp begins and ends where you want it to. As long as your imagination can keep up and you feel like continuing then you can play on. Considering this facet of the Rp, that it is in fact endless, what we mean by a complete rp is a wrapped up story. This finishing play can come in the form of a single act in a larger play or as a story in and of itself.


Answer = That's the be all end all answer in questioning the difference between the rp and the rpg on sc.

In the end I personally think this difference creates a rift in who wants to play. Due to the high creativity and time demands placed on the Rper, not everyone wants to put their time and effort into the gameplay. There are also personality differences to consider, which I will now ponder ^_^



See, here I think, might be the main reason between you and I and our differences in oppinion here. As you say, we're "running around in our imaginations for no point whatsoever." My favorite history professor, when I discussed the fun in playing penandpaper rpgs, reportedly said to me, "I just can't see why you would do all that when you could be writing it down and getting paid for it." You probably enjoy alot of things on SC as I do, but out of all of it, my favorite thing is to, as you say, run around doing pointless things in my imagination. Now, in the end, alot of things are pointless. I won't discuss this indepth cause I'm sure you know this and have thought about it just as I have. When you consider life in this light you must generally say, if most everything is pointless in the end then I'm going to pursue Not what others think I should pursue, but what I want to pursue, I will pursue the things I believe are important. Now for me those things that are important are famliy, god, school, friends, fun, etc..., and stuff like that. Under the fun category I derive imense enjoyment from "pointlessly running around in my imagination." Do I really need to have it all saved on text or replay? I do not believe so. It's not as if I need to either. I belive the most important thing in such situations are the memories. The feelings you engage in as you roleplay an immense situation of epic proportions; a romance of great emotion and feeling; a drama that moves your heart close to tears; a tragedy that calms the mind and makes you reflect on who you are and why you're here. These things I take part in with my friends I take part in not for some overlying objective reason, but because, for me, they are fun. I make great memories and think new thoughts and engage ideas with other interesting minds. If the game was good enough, I don't need a saved text representation replay to remind me of it. The best games stay with you forever, glowing whiter than most movies will long after the initial game has faded. Why? because You helped to create that wonderful world.

As I already said this post, infested-jerk did give the large and all-consuming answer to your question. You just didn't see it for what it was.

As it is and for the record, I don't include golems and evolves in the same category myself. Just between us, I find golems to be(used to be at least) the only fun mass game. Evolves is inanely retarded in my own opinion as are all the maddness ones. Maybe its a whim but even so, I separate these two map types between the categories or Functional and Rather Fun, and Not Really Very Interesting at all or even worth keeping for that matter. ^_^ But that's just my oppinion! I have a few rps that rate at this level as well. ^_^ hahahaha

first off i would like to say... gg rain just owned you.


Rp=Role playing. If you dont understand it i suggest you go back to school. A friend taught me how to rp and i personally love doing it, although i quite sc a i think that adding a rp section would be great, hell all sen members can find a rp map in the dldb its not as hard as you people make it sound. It doesnt have to be done instantly. I do think me need more staff for the dldb though, but hey thats just me... on another note rping takes skill to do. there for should be added...

So as i can see. Red2Blue You LOSE. Rain has won this battle. How come over this 3page argument you used 1 main thing for your protection. Rp and RPG the way they are said. They may sound alike but they arnt!!!! Havnt you heard of words that sound alike but mean ENTIRELY different things? There called Homonyms. get it in your head and this would be over.
Rp=Being able to do what you want when u want to.
Rpg=Being forced to do something because its in the storyline.

Are you unable to get the feeling of loss into your head or are you just going to contunue echoing yourself and make this post even longer?

Becuse length definitely wins all arguments.


You say RP and RPG exactly the same? You might want to check your pronounciation.

Heh sorry. Cant say english is my best subject. XD but all im trying to say is that.If you know you've lost. Accept it and stops making all the others suffer through the indeniable conclusion. -_-

WHo cares if it is just imaginative babble?


EVERYONE DIES, IT'S THE DANGER OF LIFE. SO YOU HAVE TO LEARN TO MAKE THE BEST OF IT BEFORE YOU HAVE TO PRAY TO THE PORCELIN GODS


Uh, I mean "Meet your maker"



Compared to SC rping, a rpg like Tales of Symphonia (Which Rain's name has no connection too outside of coincidence) are totaly different. In tales of synphonia it doesn't matter what you do (Outside of losing)


(Spoiler Alert)
Mithos will always die, the great tree will always germinate and it won't matter if you killed abyssian or cleared Nifleheim, Mithos Dies, Llyod and his friend live yadda yadda yadda. (Well, except for Zelos he lives or dies but other than that nothing too important changes)


In an rp, the ending isn't defined. I've only completed one rp in the whole time I've ever rped, mostly because of time restraints. But that rp rocked so much me and my friend remember it to this day.

Rps also require people to interact, what you do could undermine what someone else does.

I Believe I have only had 2 conclusively ended RPs of that kind. Past that, I have also began several rps that were nearly as memorable but unfortunatly was never able to finish them.

I like to keep a book with all my favorite characters in it. So far I've got somewhere between 30 and 40 different original characters. With that many I periodically erase the less interesting ones off the list or meld one or more or the similar ones together. I really enjoy fleshing out their troubles and character traits. Maybe I'll one day write a book with all the material I've amassed, who knows. It'd be fun. Making these characters and toying with their personalitys and how they would react in various given situations makes for good fun even in the less interesting rps I have joined. Just because one rp fell through because of time constraints or players leaving or some such thing does not mean you should abandon the characters. Developing one or even a pantheon of characters to rp with is immensely satisfying and the more you play the more alive your creations become.

Alot of what goes into an rp is the mental states of the people playing. Imagination is important but if two of your partners don't get along then things will not go anywhere.

Another important thing to consider is rp style. Some people like to play out one-on-one interaction far more than anything else. There are others who enjoy playing out larger battles and histories. Those more meticulous players who prefer to set up everything in the world they envision perfectly will often not enjoy playing with the kind of player who likes to start things right off with a bang and little to no preparation. It helps to watch for other player's styles and adjust your own way of playing for each game. Doing this helps keep things going smoothly.


What'd you mean by this minimoose? Are you replying to the ascertation that I won or the question of Red2Blue's reasoning points on his side of the debate? I don't know whether you're being sarcastic about the length of my posts or laughing at Kit's question. I want you to think about this seriously, and if you were being sarcastic then you clearly weren't. You didn't say much beyond replying to things superfluous to the debate. What's your own oppinion on this issue?