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Because there is no god.

I know this comes alittle late but - argues like this will continue forever because there is no proof that there is god and there is no proof that there isn't a god.
And by the definition of god it's a thing you can't proof.

My opinion is that there is no god, yet I can't prove that to someone that belives in god.
Someone else might belive in god, yet he can't prove me that god exists.

So whatever said above and will be said later can be either very true, or total crap, and no one will ever know.

And here comes my point of this whole post:
Maybe instead of arguing about this subject and trying to prove each other that your statement is the true one, just state what you think and why.
Now it's more like - someone says something, other answers him, third guy comes, second replies, first attacks back, fourth is a red horse, etc.

There is no point to argue about it because none of the sides can win, and unless those threads are a big scam to get ez minerals it's pointless.

He doesn't want us to be like that. He doesn't want us to be people with no will of our own and just serve him like servants bound to chains. He wants us to choose freely


THat's what i've been "trying" to do. Not really force everyone to believe in God but just yea, state what my thoughts are in response to others.


REally no point, but that's just us SENers. Arguing over the most pointless things here and just gaining useless minerals

Not at all. Let me rephrase.

Anything is possible, as long as it is in God's will.

That's your faith talkin', not ours. Allow me to rephrase it as well.

"Anything is possible, as long as it is logically feasible."
Catched my drift?

Edit add: Oppsss... Forgot to clear that one up.
My 'hidden' point is that for it to happen you have to do something 1st. For instance, filling the lottery ticket, work for it, etc.

That is to say, that if God wanted you to fly to the moon using nothing more than the power from your farts, you could?

Nah, I'll just let you be the test pilot. *Sarcasm*
On a serious note now. From the Physics view, I don't think that fart power has enough thrust to get you out of the Earth's gravity pull nor give you the necessary impulse to fly you there.
Please, just don't pose to be a smart-ass. I know you tried to go against it's views but there are nicer ways of putting it in the 1st place.

I could do that... or I could repeat what has been said in this forum a thousand times before. Also, I'm making a point. Do you think anything is possible because a god *wills* it so? Lay down some cold, hard evidence and make us believe!

Nope. That's where faith stumbles upon logic. And that was my point in the 1st place.
It just goes around both ways, same as the Occam's Razor test. Both Atheist n' Theist (more Christian it seems) side can't provide any hard evidence yet. Again, perhaps a compromise would be in due order. (That's why I currently wave between agnostic and atheist.)

Wrong. Atheists don't need evidence to prove the nonexistence of God, because that's not their goal. The nonexistence of something can be assumed (but never proven) by the lack of evidence for it. However, for something to be assumed to exist, there must be evidence for it. You don't believe in leprechauns or unicorns, do you? Well, by your logic that if it can't be disproven it must exist you may as well start.

Funny you should call in Occam's Razor when it can so easily be used to cut (Hah! Pun!) the Creationist argument out of the picture. For example, my roommate says that the universe began with the Big Bang, and that God started the Big Bang. I asked him "What was there before God?", and he said that God just existed, he already was. Using Occam's Razor we can take the whole idea of a deity out of the picture by simplifying it: The universe just existed, it already was. See what I'm getting at?

No. Plain n' simple. I know that.
Merely stating that without proof we can't be sure that God (or whatever) isn't there for sure. 'Till proven everything goes, from the high entity to the Big Bang we're not sure what really happened (as said many times before). That's why I stand on the edge of both.

I always go by logic because its the only thing that is proven, but faith is what keeps people alive if people dont have faith in somthing then it makes life harder

Annoyingly enough, my life is harder because other people have faith.

I'd thought that we had already established that comparing faith and logic was like comparing apples and oranges...

It is lol

But that's just the way we are. Arguing over arguments that just go nowhere, just like the WHy did Bush win thread

I don't know about you guys, but I've learned a lot from all of these discussions, especially about how to think logically. So it hasn't been a total waste. As long as the people who actually have something to say participate these discussions are worthwhile.

I agree with you when you use the "apples and oranges" analogy. But we hadn't yet figured that out when this thread was started. So that's another thing I learned!

I didn't tought so in that case. I didn't saw any evidences of anything the 'Bushies' in there stated n therefore should've presented when asked. I did it and wasn't even dared to present'em.
But I also learned a few things there... unfortunetly. *Sighs*



Thoroughly agree. That's one of the main reasons I attend (debating) forums.
This will present my point of view better than me:


Forgive me if something is lost in translation but I've heard it in my mother tongue. And try to use it whenever it's possible.

Human Beings need both faith and logic equally. Without logic we would not

be as advanced as we are today. Without faith whats to stop some weirdo from

raping a little girl if he knows he can get away with it. What to stop jeluosy or

hatred people don't do bad things for one or two reasons they are afraid of getting

caught or afraid of the punishment they will suffer in the end. and logic is well

logic you know why water is wet you know why the sky is blue (or at least you

should) you know before you do something if it is wrong or not


we also can not live without one or the other. imagine a world with only faith we

would spend our entire life trying to please out god or gods depending on your

religion we would just sit and pray from them to give us what we want


and with only logic we would not feel that something is truly bad and everyone

would be trying to take over the world or just get whatever it is that want either

way living without one will lead us to one thing

our doom

Ugh, double spacing lines. (And invisible punctuation.)

From this one:


Why not logic? Or principles as the matter of fact.
Well... it's about everything but faith, but wth.



Wtf!?! Science might have a thing or two to say about this.



This still happens today. Religious zealots n' similars are just examples of it.



Logic!?! Wasn' that the lack of it?

Principles were created from logic and faith. Many of todays principles revolve around the bible which is the faith part.

Science revolves around logic, people think logically before they do an experiment.

Well of course people pray. Some people are simply have more faith than others, everyone doesn't rely on faith and logic equally. People who go to church believe more in god than those who don't. don't give me any crap like "well you can believe in god just as much and not go to church." your wrong maybe you believe as much but you don't take it as seriously.

*Sighs* Yeah, they come from the Bible alone... There aren't any other religions or 'holly books' as good examples. Just not to mention that logic also made us burry some of the so called religious principles (like stoning to death and such) but wth, I'm amused today.



Not always it seems... you've been experimenting my patience (with your ramble posting) and with no logic what so ever.
I'm becoming to think that's about closure time for this one. No real debate in here, just points of view with no backing up, from where I stand.



Here we go. Best recent flame bait, if I saw one.
Not more faith, perhaps different faiths in the 1st place. Amidst with tolerance for the fellow man's view points n' beliefs.

Please prove it to me. How can I not go into Church and not believe as much as you do (seriously)? The amount of faith or it's seriousness isn't dictated by you attending Church or not.
Edit add (as a personal example): Heck, I' even was an element of a Christian choir (aka had to go to Church to sing) and in those days already didn't believe in God. So what's your aim afterall?

Faith Versus Logic??? Someone needs to rephrase the title...

Don't you even know Science is all philosophy? You can ask Captain Will on that. Science cannot account for everything that exists. Here are 5 examples:
1. Mathematics and logic (Science can't prove them because science presupposes them)
2. Metaphysical truths (such as, there are minds that exist other than your own)
3. Ethical judgments (you can't prove by science that the Nazis were evil, because morality is not subject to the scientific method)
4. aesthetic judgments (the beautiful, like the good, cannot be scientifically proven)
and the most IMPORTANT ONE OF ALL....
5. Science Itself! (the belief that the scientific method discovers truth can't be proven by the scientific method itself)

Science is built upon philosophy. Scientists assume (by FAITH) that the reason and the scientific method allow us to accurately understand the world around us. That cannot be proven by science itself. You can't prove the tools of science - Laws of logic, Law of Causality (cause -> effect), principle of Uniformity (if you dropped an apple 10,000 years ago, it would fall just like apples would today), or even reliability of observation - by running some type of experiment. You have to assume those things are true in order to do the experiment!

Since science is based upon philosophy, philosophical assumptions can dramatically impact scientific conclusions. If someone assumes beforehand only natural causes are possible, then no amount of evidence would persuay him that intelligence created anything.

Finally, Science doesn't really say anything—scientists do. Data is always interpreted by scientists. When scientists let their personal preferences or unproved philosophies dictate their conclusion, they do exactly what they accuse of us "religious" people of doing - they let their ideology dictate theri conclusions.

Man I love this book I got (I don't have enough faith to be an athiest)

The problem with the title is that Faith always has a "religious" connotation, but it also refers to logic as well. The majority of things you do every day you use "indicitive" reasoning. Most observations you make are not 100% accurate, but they are close enough. For example, I trust (or have faith) that when I push a key on the keyboard, it will type out that letter I have pushed and I will see it on the screen. We ALWAYS have a little faith in everything we do. If any person here says "You need 100% evidence at all times or you're some imbecile", then I guess all science should be thrown into the trash, because you can't even prove that 100%. There are some exceptions to the rule though. For example, if I say "This is a sentence.", you can verify and be 100% sure that it is a sentence. What this book is proving is that you need more faith (or less logic) in Atheism than in Christianity.

Actually, in Chapter 8 (of 15) it kicks out all Non-theistic beliefs because of the Law of Noncontridiction (Two opposite things can't be true at the same time; the opposite of true is false) and that there is absolute truth. I hope you enjoyed reading that sentence; the first 8 chapteres only use logic and boolean algebra

Ok ive calmed down, its like this say for example that you like the Detroit Red Wings. So whenever you see them on tv sit down and watch it. Now someone with the same income and lifestyle goes to all the games. Woudnt you say he likes them better than you. Couldnt the same be for relegion.

"faith vs logic" implies that faith and logic are pitted against each other, therefore, faith is illogical.

can faith be logical? should one observe a miracle and hence believe/have faith--would it be illogical?

also, faith is logical for some, even without the event of a miracle.

i believe that faith is logical, but to some it is not, which would explain the beginnings of this thread...

You're right, faith can be logical.

Infact, many aspects of faith could be logics; just that we can't see them.

That's a little off... If the thread was "Science vs logic", that doesn't necessarily mean Science is illogical.

I do understand the point you make cfro. There are two types of faith: logical faith and blind faith. (in the religious sense) There is also the faith which we probably call by another word; the "faith" that the chair you are sitting on won't suddenly break.


Well, that's why I got my handy book based upon logics and Boolean Algebra . (Hey, did you know Einstein tried to find a loophole for his own equation of General Relativity because his equation was proving that the universe had a beginning? He introduced the cosmological constant to show that the universe was static and always existed. Later Russian matematician Alexander Friedmann found the error with the constant; in Einstein's persuit to prevent a beginning, he divided by zero!!! You learn something new every day.)