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I believe in God, not specifically meaning that the God I believe in is the God that you believe in, but I truly believe that there is something, someone, who has created us in his image. The only thing that troubles me, is if he created us in his image along with creation itself, then is he infinite?.. or was there a start to his career, and if there was a start, will there be an end?

Which is more real, the me that is present?.. or the me that is infinite. Is this 'life' a dream that I am bound to wake up from?.. or is this the real reality that destiny has chosen for us.

I do not ask for answers. I ask that those who read this, can understand, and can think about it deeply. Don't try to prove/disprove my theories, as you will not get very far.


Think of the universe as a white blanket. This blanket contains everything, and outside this blanket, there are more blankets. The blanket is everything.

On one side, you have you, and right next to you, there is an orgasm, opposite from the orgasm, there is McDonalds, then there is me, then theres a war, and on the bottom left hand corner, there is a planet. The blanket, is everything, and everything is connected and at the same time, everything is different.

There is no difference between me and you, we are the same, we are conntected. There is no difference between a stone, and an organism. Everything is connected even though everything is different.

Existentialism is wonderful. You can describe it in many ways.

For more about existentialism, I recommend you to watch a movie called 'I Heart Huckabees' where "heart" is an actual heart symbol.

I came to this topic a bit.. late... because of everyone's ignorance, but i have to say this-

It's all based on faith. of course, you cant see god, and people sturggle with the concept of why god lets people suffer around the world and all of these terrible things happen. But it's just based on faith. You cant prove either one actually.

*HITS CHEEZE WITH A CHAIR
Try what again?(i seriously am clueless)

Ok i won't explain why i don't like internet factual searches, but i will tell you how i got my estimation. I went to 6 different cities on a class tour of western america. I took about 43 polls(or 44) in 19 different locations of 100 or 200 people(only those 2 numbers). When averaged everything around i came out with those factors. Yet it isn't nation-wide which is why i said estimated, i can't go and poll all of america on religon and belief. It's not an aproximate poll, but you can't get a REAL aproximate poll unless someone goes and travels all of america. That really is the only way to get the most approximate answers, but it's just my opinion so do what it is you like. I had nice sources, my own, but i shoulda noted isn't nation-wide, but meh it's an estimate, I didn't spread false information .

Monkeys Rule!

You are 100% correct in my opinion. If you don't have faith, you will live a shitty life. It's better to float in faith then prepare in fear. As far as we know, this life could be our last, so we might as well live it happily doing what we love without fear of whats going to happen next.

....
well, that was fun.

...is there anything else that you'd like to say thats even more off topic then I was? =\

ADDITION:


!

You replied to my post with info that you got off a class tour?
...
-_- Oh brother...

Anyway, next time PLEASE tell me where the hell you get your sources too, cuz I was going over here...

ADDITION:


I'm sorry, but I'd have to disagree on just a small part of that. You said if you don't have faith. You don't nescessarilly need faith if you are able to support you self. Religion is like something to put your burdens upon, but their are people out there that choose to keep both their mental and physical burdens upon themselves, and for those strong enough to get through it, Life is probably even less shitty than it would be for faith. So an alternative to faith = Willpower. But thats just my opinion.

Oh, and once again, I notice were off topic. I could do this all day....but then I'd miss school......ya, so ill just keep doing this then =P.

My tour is how i went about the traveling, is that a problem? It's better then whatever you do for answers or fact in your so-called "I have a special gift of perception that i don't think anyone else has" power...
I won't say anything more before you cause some rather irrasional conversation so when making comments such Oh brother, at least LOOK like you have a nice alternative you pessimistic rat.

And i wasn't replying to you mister center of attention, i'm pretty sure i quoted Cheeze, but sux2 be arrogant as you with that great and brilliant ego, wish I had one.

Listen, I don't want to make a rant on this thread cuz it doesnt belong here. So ill make it short. I never said I was the only one that had it. I said it was just something I thought I had. I never called it special, I just said its a perk. I never said it was a power, I even went so far as to explain that its just a pattern of actions I take. The "Oh brother" was because I went through a shitload of research because I was wrong and I wanted to figure out why. I know you werent replying to me, that doesn't mean I can't reply to you. And last of all, I never meant any offense in that reply. I'm not a pessimist, or a rat. I'm not here to make enemies, so I'll just go ahead and apologize.

Sorry for being a shithead.

There, now please ignore any further involvement of mine in this convo, as it seems my opinion isn't wanted here.

When faith is all you have left, you have lost the arguement.

BTW - Vicious, you don't need faith in god to live a happy life. You can still do it if you have faith in yourself. And arn't the religious people the ones with the fear of death kinda sorta? Atheists are usually just, when I die, oh well. Religious are like, "IF I DIE, I MIGHT GO TO HELL AND BURN FOREVER!!!" They have a lil bit more people worrying about death if you ask me.

Lost the argument!?! what!?! I said that it's based on faith in if there is a god. You cant prove either one! So shut up and read better!

You really are starting to show signs of "I'm wrong, but can't admit it yet." especially when you tell me to "shut up" and read better. (If YOU read this topic, you would see why faith should not be counted down as proof)

BTW - I just noticed your avatar. The rabbit part was my favorite part of the movie.

Hello, I am an atheist.

Group: Hello Euro.

That being said... Alpha is right about if all you have is faith, then you've lost.
He is also right about how more people who are religious have more on their plate then aethiests. I mean, you die, good game, no remake. Oh well, I'm sure that nothingness of you isn't going to care much. In my opinion, there is no god, just something people...

A) Needed to believe in. That there was some higher power.
B) Used to explain things they couldn't explain. (Ex. Lightning, rain, plagues.)
C) People who were smart created the church to con people out of money, and gain a monopoly on the religion. Such as the Church around Martin Luthers time. Selling Indulgences!? I mean, does god really give two shits about money?

I think its a mix of B and C.

The Bible also tells of tons of specific events occuring in the bible (such as things like the building of temple of jeruselum). Infact, i saw along time ago on TV how many scientists, who didn't actually believe in God, still used the Bible as historical reference to the past.


Religious people can be all three of those.


God himself isn't organized, but sometimes the way many people present the idea of God is ambiguous.


You're crap.

jk


Followers of God achieve "immortality" by having their soul go to heaven. Normally you can't believe in God then go to hell for it.


I've already answered this many too many *sigh.*


Yea, the ones with real pictures of past events do. Whereas a history book written back in the times in which writing was the only of documenting things stands at the same line as the Bibles.


Although the Bible mostly consists about God, it isn't just about "God." It also tells us of historical events that happened.


Science has nothing to do with what we're talking about.


Science has nothing to do with what we're talking about.


Yes, and that's what the Bible is (now dont start up that "how do you know the Bible is true and not written by stoned people?" because that had already been discussed.)


I think the "you" that will go to heaven is the real you. Because in the Bible, it says that once we die, we'll be given new and better bodies and be rid of all the sins that were implanted into us on Earth.


Yup, true. But the thing is people then use our "faith" as a cover-up for their validility in their arguments which say God doesn't exist.


I thought that stuff was ontopic. He said that he believed in God and then as his support, he's using analogies to give us a better view of what he's saying.


That's only according to the Atheists' PoV. Whereas we can say the same to you guys. When placing the burden of proof on us is all you have left, you have lost the argument. What makes yours more right than ours?

Neither is, so we might as well drop it.


A) it's not neccesarily a need.
B) Not really just that.
C) Those were the Roman Catholics. Personally i find many of the things they're doing extremely faulty, like the indulgences as you've mentioned. And again, this further backs up my point that these religious people from the past are giving us bad a bad name.

Mill:
Faith is NOT proof what so ever. No where near close. When you say it's all about faith, you're basically saying that, it's all you have left. Like, you got almost nothing left to defend your arguement. (Which I'm pretty sure isn't true right now) If faith is all you have left, then you've lost. Because EVERY SINGLE ARGUEMENT can have faith in it. This goes for both science and religion. But science doesn't base it's self Just on faith. It uses math and experiments. And don't say this isn't a scientific arguement. That's like me saying this isn't a religious arguement. You got to hear from both sides before making a decision. (Something many children don't really do before they believe in a religion)

i do beleve in him (with him bieng god) or else we wouldnt be here.

Maybe we're the ones that are the gods. We just havn't made a planet yet. But I would need to supply some proof that, that is true. *Cough* *cough*, burden of proof.

The bible tells of many events that do not require the presense of god. Using those events as proof that other events within the bible also occured is obviously incorrect. Unfortuantly, I see you guys doing that all the time; the bible cannot ever be used as a historical reference without another supportive evidence. Reason? Because the bible contains a biased view while reliable sources do not.


I've said this before. Followers of god achieve "immortality" but this is only because they are afraid of death. They trick themselves into thinking that if they believe in god, they will be able to live forever. Sometimes, you need to open your eyes and realize that immortality is impossible. You will die one day and you are not destined for immortality.



Huh. I've answered many of the questions and/or arguements and yet, you still continue throwing them at me. Use something new! So let's hear this answer that you've answered already. Let me take a swing at it then we'll see what you got.


Actually, history books have physical evidence, such as inventions and discoveries of places (etc). However, the bible has many accounts of things that have no such evidence and thus leads us to say that you only have faith to back up your claim. If that is the case, this arguement is pointless. I've said this before too but there are a few of you who have admitted, but there are also those who have not yet. I'm waiting.


Science has everything to do with what we're talking about. How can you make this claim without giving a supported reasoning? Here's mine: science is the foundation for what I beleive in; science contains reasoning, facts, evidence and more importantly, the ability to reproduce almost any experiment by anyone in order to confirm a claim. What does religion have? Faith.


Discussed, but without a good response from your side. You simple say the bible contains historical events; well, so does my story about pink fairies. Therefore, pink fairies must exist! (refer to top reply for more)


Oh? You're saying everyline I have just made is simply a "cover-up" for my mistakes because your faith in something cannot be wrong?


Actually, the burden of proof is nothing like faith. Burden of proof is what requires you to present evidence. Since your only response to that is nothing except faith, the arguement becomes invalid because it will simply slide toward opinion rather than reason.

What makes our views correct? That depends on how well you judge evidence. If someone poured liquid nitrogen into a bottle and you saw it explode, do you think you would be able to do it?


*heart* MA for typing a long post so I could type a longer one.



EDIT (Correction of grammar included!):


Don't post your opinion without at least giving it one supporting sentence!

Welcome newcomer of here.

good point .

Dont want to get into another one of those long post wars but i just cant resist for some of these:


You're right it isn't proof, but neither is saying "the burden of proof lies on us."

But seeing how none of you nonbelievers have said that yet (and still have more to come), then i guess we can say you've beat some of the religious people according to your PoV


I find it ironic how my reply was in response to FallenDreamers and yet you choose to reply to mine rather than his because his is the one that's actually bringing up the statement in the first place and that mine is just terse and "vulnerable" to your response since i wasn't aiming this at you.


Again i find it ironic how you would say such a thing. The last time i've recalled using the same argument on you was like..... a long time ago. Infact, only one of those responses i made in post #262 was in response to you (which you didn't reply to) and i dont even recall ever saying that before to you...


Well cheeze, if you look at devilesk's post which i replied to:

That's called digression. While he was initially talking about the Bible and History, he just randomly describes what science is, which i find irrevelant to what he was saying about History being true and the bible being fallacious.

And actually, i was wrong with my first "science has nothing to do with what we're talking about" .


Both are alike in the way that you, saying you have faith, and you placing the burden of proof on someone else rather than yourself, are not presenting any support or evidence to further corroborate your stance.


You're welcome

One Reason why burden of proof is proof:
Justice system

One Reason why faith isn't:
Salem witch trials.

I believe if we were to prove that the burden of proof lies on your side, and that you've had way more than enough time to prove to us that your god is real. (Proving that your god is real should not be hard at all if u think about it) Then you are proven wrong, until you're proven right. Cause there is no way we can get closer to proving your wrong on god. I've asked the question on it twice alrdy, and no one has answered it so far.

Actually Alpha(MC), the burden of proof isn't proof. However, it does show that their side does not have sufficient evidence for their claim, thus making their claim invalid.

MA, I really don't care who you're replying to, your responses have holes and I addressed them. If you want someone else to poke at the holes my response has rather than you, that's fine with me, because you won't find any either way.

I am still waiting for the reasonable answer. How about this, type a somewhat long post that explains why you believe in your.. beliefs. I've done that already and I would very much like to see what you have to say.

"The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true."
-Dictionary

That's the proof I'm talking about.

BTW - I agree with cheese. I too would like to see your reasons for believing there is a god.

Why should i have any reason to post my reasons? So you guys could pick apart my beliefs apart and censure my values and ideals? Because if thats why you guys want to do, forget it. You dont see me reprimanding your belief of not believing in God do you? (if i did, then sry).

I have better things to do now that my summer started

Basically, you're saying that your beliefs have holes in them and by admitting certain things you believe in, we will be able to show you the errors, but you wish to remain blind to them.

Ignorance is bliss no?

Alpha, No, im just tired of your everyone's ignorance. Every one are being ignorant idiots, and sorry to say it, SEN has alot of em. Ignorant people ruined my day.

ADDITION:
We are trying to prove a fact that cant be proved here.

The "holes" that are in people's beliefs really just depend on your PoV. No matter what we can't coerce each other to have one particular PoV. Atheists and agnostics are ALWAYS going to find holes in religious people's beliefs no matter what, whereas most religious people don't. And since people are so engrossed into one's beliefs/ideals, anything else which has the slightest discrepancy which contradicts yours will be seen as "holes."

ADDITION:

Well, some of us just love doing this.

And warhammer, we all just have different PoVs so yes it does get very frustrating to some when trying to get people to see and accept things their own way. That's also explains why some of our past atheists/agnostics/christians have left this whole God debate thing.