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Why did he bring the plagues? Because Pharaoh was asking for it. He was treating the Israelites like animals. He kills the firstborns, he works oldmen, women, and children to death, and gives them no mercy. After hearing the pleas from the israelites, God sent Moses to give Pharaoh the choice to either let the slaves go or suffer from the plagues.

Yes God is omnipotent.Of course he could've done something like somehow mess pharaoh's mind and force him to free the israelites, but he didn't, that's not who God is. He gives people choices, giving them the ability to make their own choices. That's how he wants us humans to be.

Yes, I completely agree with you about giving choices.

Explain to me why he gave two choices. Two choices that are to the "extremes" of both sides. How come there are no inbetween? If god is so "understanding", why did he not show the pharaoh the wrongness in his actions? Why did he have to kill his son?

This doesn't show love, no matter what kind of actions the pharaoh has done. It shows revenge; this is hardly the kind of god you try to describe.

Back to the choices, explain to me why it had to be only those two choices? Why could he not have given a compromise? If you are to say something like "because he did go too far", then that only shows that god is not omnipotent because he couldn't solve the problem!


Which means you admit it is revenge.

if God gives people the ability to make their own choices, then why didnt he just leave the pharoah alone to make his own choice of doing what he does?

Intersesting Website
Go There.
No, You Don't Have To Believe, But It Gives You An Idea Of What Christianity Is.

XD #1 and 5 owned me

...........this test will say that almost everyone goes to hell, because everyone has lied at least once

I'm not sure if you meant that as a joke or not. (The entire side is ad hoc)

I answered "No" to "are you scared of hell?" and it gives me reasons why I should be afraid... from "god" or the "bible". Obviously, this is circular reasoning. Bad site; humorous nontheless.



(LOL) Cool, it's established, I'm going to hell. Now I shall continue to click until they give the page to the proof of existance of hell. *clicks madly* Oh, none exists.

Ouch, I think that article stinks too. Lol, I answered so I HAD NO SINS, but it still said that I'm not good enough...

so.........what's the difference between what you did to go to heaven before Jesus came and after?

He did show pharaoh the wrongness in his actions; they showed pharaoh in every possible way how what he was doing was bad. Pharaoh knew that he was treating the Israelites harshly but the thing is, he just didn't care about how the slaves felt; he only cared about the creation of his city (which he was using the israelites to do.) He was stubborn. Every attempt to convince him that he was wrong was futile. And also, the Israelites dont belong in Egypt, the only reason they were there was because Israel had a severe drought which drove them away. They were suppose to have come back pretty soon, but the egyptians decided to enslave them.

It's not revenge; it's punishment. What Pharaoh did was wrong. God tried to show Pharaoh that what he did was wrong because God loved him. It's just like a parent telling their child that what he or she did was wrong - they inform their kids because they love them; they want them to realize what they're doing is wrong.

ADDITION:

Because what Pharaoh was doing was wrong; he was torturing the israelites. And because God lived pharaoh, he tried to convinced Pharaoh that what he did was wrong.

There's 2 things that you don't fully get, if you're gonna think God IS real.

1. Death is not the end. God killing off somebody is NOT the end.

2. God can kill as many people as he wants. It's like if you created a masterpiece and you want to destory it, nobody can tell you what you're doing is wrong. God has the right to kill off every last person.

I'm sorry, "every possible" yields infinity. Try again.


Just as stubborn as god is! At least that's how I see it from his actions.


Thus, god cannot be omnipotent, which is my entire point here. I'm trying to show how god cannot be omnipotent in this scenario (which you brought up so it cannot be my fault ).


In a way, that would be god's problem. He made a mistake because of the drought. Thus, he isn't omnipotent. Nor omniscient.


God knew this was coming. He did nothing to stop it. Why didn't he? Is god so powerful that he cannot contradict the actions that will take place because he is omniscient? (*gasp*) New idea, go down to the reply for it!


If I were as smart as god, I would never punish someone. I would know what would happen and do everything in my power (*wink wink*) to stop it.

Face it, based on the circumstances, it looks like revenge. Espcially if you say he's omnipotent.


Define wrong without using point of view.


Sure. I'll believe that. But that makes god not omnipotent. Doesn't it?


Except parents aren't all-powerful. They have weaknesses. The very definition of god does not! So, again, you contradict yourself.


It still hurts the person. Would you like it if you were created just to be killed? Of course not! If this is true, life wouldn't have a purpose, except to die. To die in the hands of a creator. This isn't even a natural purpose!

However, you believe in purpose in life so there is no way you can support this arguement anyway.


I agree. But that doesn't sound very much like a "loving" god, does it? Once again, a contradiction. Not only that, you (plural) have not explained to me why god had to choose an action. Well, you did, but you forgot that he has to be omnipotent.

Awesome theory thingy:
If god can look ahead and see what's happening, can he use his omnipotent powers to change the future?

If so, then he is not omniscient.

If no, then he is not omnipotent.



Just remember, he's omnipotent. Stop placing limits on him.

The slavery thing is in exodus somewhere. Been almost an entire year since I saw it. Damn, I need to go find it.

Update - Found it. The page made a good point for it on the religious side, but the point still is that the "moral bible" doesn't condemn it. http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html

BTW - Cheeze's post kicked ass.

I think it's gg to Chrisitanity.

Don't take it the wrong way mill, you're pretty damn cool. I'm just telling it like it is.

Who said anything about him being omnipotent? He is omniscient, but since he is all-powerful, there are things he cannot do. For example, He cannot make a mistake. That is for the weak. He is just an all-knowing and loving God.

I think he's made plenty of mistakes, unless our farked up world is supposed to be like this. And if this is how he wants it to be, fark him. The very idea that I am created only to entertain a higher entity makes me sick.

Omnipotent = All-powerful

Your post = Useless

Your application of logic = Non-existant

Every way is what i meant.

How would God be stubborn? He simply gave Pharaoh two choices. And only two choices because what pharaoh was doing was wrong (killing jews, enslaving them because of their race, torturing them, etc) and was extremely sinful. Pharaoh refused and so God gave him the consequence.

And you say God is not omnipotent because he cannot convince pharaoh? I disagree. God isn't coercing pharaoh to do anything (otherwise it would then be a question over his omnipotency, seeing how pharaoh would have resisted God's effort to change him.) All God is doing is persuading through the use of Moses. It's actually up to Pharaoh who makes his own decision. Then based off his decision, God gives a response. It's like how I explained earlier about God giving us choices. It's us humans that make our own choices, not God making our own choices.


He knew the Egyptians would choose to enslave and treat the israelites with malice. But it was the Egyptian's choice and as I said earlier, God doesn't want to forcibly change people's actions, ev en if he knew it was coming; he wants them to change it themselves. He can advise and try to convince people to make the change, but he let's the people themselves make the decisions.

Never punish anyone? Lets say you had a son. You tell him not to treat his little sister so cruely. Your son, however, refuses and continues with his actions. Your daughter is suffering, she's getting hurt by her older brother everyday. If you want your son to be a better person, then of course you are going to want to discipline him. If you didn't love your son and didn't care whether he was going to be better or not, then you would just leave your son alone and ignore your daughter's plea for help.
Likewise, God wanted the Egyptians to be better people. He But they refused.


Fine, done give me time to read the latest responses

Edit: I can see why you've said all of what you've said. I just simply have a different way of seeing it.

ADDITION:

It's cool dude. And hey, you're one of the first people I've seen for a long while that actually provided a link which supports your argument (and maybe prove me wrong in something)

Plus, I don't think the Egyptin population deserved to be punished. They were simply accepting the way things were, with the Isralites in slavery and all.

This doesn't stop my arguement. It still yields infinity. I'm am 100% sure that god showed the pharaoh a finite amount of actions. This contradicts your idea that "every" possibility has been displayed.


You're not explaining why he gave him two choices. Your reason is:

which has no meaning over why he gave only two. If god is truly omniscient, why did he give any? At most, he should have given one since he knew what would happen anyway.

You see, it is within god's power to change any given scenario (defined by you: "omnipotency"). Thus, explain to me why he would tell the pharaoh to do something with a finite amount of choices with the knowledge that the pharaoh would decline them?

If anything, this "god" sounds dumb. I don't mean to offend anyone, but even I, a mere human, would have simply changed the scenario to make everyone happy. This would actually show "love".


God gave him the consequence with knowledge that he would give the consequence because he knew the Pharoah would decline all choices.

Please, try to think logically here. Why would he do this? Also, please do not give me the "god knows what he's doing, you're just too narrow-minded to understand" type of arguement. I want you to think logically and remember what my entire arguement is based upon (how omnipotency is fallacioius).


But you miss my second point in arguement. His omnisciency contradicts all of his actions because they are not within even the slightest amount of reason.

I say god is not omnipotent because he cannot be omnipotent and omniscient. Logically, it's not possible; through his actions based on this scenario that you gave prior to this arguement, I am showing you how it does, indeed, contradict all logic.


Now we get into more philosophy. Explain to me how someone can make a choice when there is another being who knows what the choice is. I completely disagree that is the Pharaoh's choice. Because there is an all-knowing being, choice cannot exist. Ever. Everything you do has been predestined and is known by this being.

However, any arguement you try against this, I would simply love to hear. Thus far, no one has even been able to convince me that choice truly exists (and I speak from a point of view that doesn't have an all-knowing being!).


If he knew that it would happen, why did he let it happen? If he knew that they wouldn't fix it, why did he let it happen? If he knows the past, the present and the future, why would he even bother attempting these actions that have failed?

Honestly, I don't think god wants them to change. He knew what would happen; why would he want anything? He knew the outcome. What's he going to do? Pray that what he knows will change?


Terrible example because of the two things I lack. Omnipotency and omnsciency. Perhaps once I have been given these powers, I will be able to deal with your situation with a more "godly" manner. Until then, I am still limited.

Stop using examples from humans. It will always fail because we do not have god powers. I hope you understand my position from here as to why I simply stop this arguement with such a simple statement. Please refer to the above arguements for how having these powers would be contradictory.

What I meant was, God is PERFECT but there are things he CANNOT do.


I believe that Millenium's way of a parent doing it is out of love, the SAME love that God shows for us. Remember, God = Love.

u cant be perfect if u cant do something or be something

Oh darn, I've done it again. I'm not a very good arguer, or putting my ideas into words.

All God is, is love and justice.

Perfect is a matter of opinion, therefore, one cannot be perfect.

Ah, well then are you going to openly admit and say "god is not omnipotent"?

That's the only thing I'm looking for; all the other characteristics of god, I really don't care because it's opinion.