Report, edit, etc...Posted by Felagund on 2006-09-09 at 21:20:37
Right, which defeats its "purpose" as an education mapping tool for new map makers. You know, for every argument with this stuff, all you need to do is twist it around a little bit, and, voila!, it's now your argument. MA, I can guarantee that if I had made OSMAP, you would be supporting the petition to get me banned because unprotection is unethical.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by xmrxsiegecopx on 2006-09-09 at 21:33:51
Those that say you either learn nothing from maps or can't comprehend complex maps unprotected by OSMAP are wrong.
Most maps I have ever looked at, such as FF-Dragonking and the hundreds of versions of DBZ - All Sagas maps aren't much complexity as compared to learning to manually unprotect a map using a hex editor alone. Sure, they may have uncommented triggers and renamed the switches and locations back to number arrays, yet it takes only as little as two weeks to learn what they are for, and ultimately, how the map works.
QUOTE(MillenniumArmy @ Sep 9 2006, 05:38 PM)
Honestly, have any of you guys even tried using OSMAP on big complex maps? I have, and it will take a hell lot of time and effort to understand the map.
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Most maps I have ever looked at, such as FF-Dragonking and the hundreds of versions of DBZ - All Sagas maps aren't much complexity as compared to learning to manually unprotect a map using a hex editor alone. Sure, they may have uncommented triggers and renamed the switches and locations back to number arrays, yet it takes only as little as two weeks to learn what they are for, and ultimately, how the map works.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Felagund on 2006-09-09 at 21:40:16
If anything, I think LW should be banned so he gets a life. After all, it really says something about his social life if he took the time to make an unprotector for StarCraft of all games.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DT_Battlekruser on 2006-09-09 at 21:58:13
QUOTE
Think about it. Lets say you make a really super complex and innovative map idea with dense triggers and multiple locations and switches. After this map is protected and compressed, do you really expect someone to understand how all your stuff works after using OSMAP? Because of all the switches and location names are reset, it's going to take an almost impossible effort to understand the triggers. And with the comments deleted or reset due to compression, it'll make it even harder if you're someone that needs comments for reference.
Honestly, have any of you guys even tried using OSMAP on big complex maps? I have, and it will take a hell lot of time and effort to understand the map.
Honestly, have any of you guys even tried using OSMAP on big complex maps? I have, and it will take a hell lot of time and effort to understand the map.
Precisely! On a complex map, all that can be done is something useless and detractful, such as rigged the map or defacing the creator's name. A perfect example of how OSMAP will be used for map stealing, not education.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2006-09-09 at 22:05:48
QUOTE(Felagund @ Sep 9 2006, 08:20 PM)
Right, which defeats its "purpose" as an education mapping tool for new map makers. You know, for every argument with this stuff, all you need to do is twist it around a little bit, and, voila!, it's now your argument. MA, I can guarantee that if I had made OSMAP, you would be supporting the petition to get me banned because unprotection is unethical.
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No I wouldn't. I am against OSMAP itself but not the maker, especially since his purpose for making this program was clear (but controversial.) I respect his opinion for why he made it.
QUOTE(GoldenKnight @ Sep 9 2006, 08:33 PM)
Those that say you either learn nothing from maps or can't comprehend complex maps unprotected by OSMAP are wrong.
Most maps I have ever looked at, such as FF-Dragonking and the hundreds of versions of DBZ - All Sagas maps aren't much complexity as compared to learning to manually unprotect a map using a hex editor alone. Sure, they may have uncommented triggers and renamed the switches and locations back to number arrays, yet it takes only as little as two weeks to learn what they are for, and ultimately, how the map works.
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Most maps I have ever looked at, such as FF-Dragonking and the hundreds of versions of DBZ - All Sagas maps aren't much complexity as compared to learning to manually unprotect a map using a hex editor alone. Sure, they may have uncommented triggers and renamed the switches and locations back to number arrays, yet it takes only as little as two weeks to learn what they are for, and ultimately, how the map works.
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But I'm talking about huge really complex maps, those that probably take 1 month to make. Sure of course you can use OSMAP to learn not as complex maps, but from what I'm seeing, the people are saying they want to protect their "intellectual knowledge" because they're probably making/made/going to make those huge complex maps and want to keep people from understanding them without their permission. That's what I was referring my last post to.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Urmom(U) on 2006-09-09 at 22:29:21
Really big complicated maps are rarely ever seen. Probably like .01% of all maps out there could be considered as complicated (my guess). Tux's Rush was probably the most advanced in the last year and that didn't take long to comprehend. Plus, there is other things besides triggers.
But like Tux has said, the topic must be getting old if people are bringing social life and clans into the picture, especially politics.
But like Tux has said, the topic must be getting old if people are bringing social life and clans into the picture, especially politics.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Gigins on 2006-09-10 at 10:13:55
QUOTE(Urmom(U) @ Sep 9 2006, 08:32 PM)
DEAD, what has clan (U) done to anybody? And Devilesk is making a lot of maps lately.
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QUOTE
After the recent shocking even I'm starting to see certain connection between thinsg happening. Let's have a little summary about recent events.
Now even without deep research I can see that all these things float around clan (U).
#1, LW was taking part in the campaign as a "protection" specialist. He used our trust in order to steal our new protection methods and update OSMAP.
#2, Devilesk got quite too far into this. I don't know why exactly but it sure looks weird.
#3, Now this looks like devilesk.
#4, As I stated before only 2 people should have access to the bot, Cheeze and LW. At first I though that LW couldn't done that because he seemed a trustable person. But now, it's like BOOM, it must have been him. Looks like he doesn't have problems with having devilesk in his clan either.
#5, Looks like devilesk had a certain problem with Shocko. God knows what's in between them.
#6, Considering that LW(probably) did team up with devilesk. He didn't have a problem to have him in clan (U). The whole terrorist faction is there. LW, MindArchon and devilesk. All high members.
#7, Well, as we all know if he do it once, he'll do it again. But this time he left a rather odd note about you. I don;t know what under it but he did quite some harm. This time it looked pretty much planned out. Also he deleted my anti-OSMAP toppic.
#8, This looked like completely different guy. He didn't left devilesk sign. But still he coused some harm with merging topics. maybe some guy just saw that it's hell of a easy to hack SEN. Who knows.
#9, Devilesk becomes a recruiter. I guess he is resonable enough to recruit new terrorists.
#10, I have no idea why did LW confess. But he certainly knew that he would loose his status. Maybe he couldn't take the presure. Maybe there was someone who knew about OSMAP and even about hacks and everything. Maube this person told LW that he will tell it to you. God knows.
As you see, this whole mess floats around clan (U). I bet you can get out some more info doing some deeper research. But in any way, keep an eye on them.
- #1 OSMAP released, big protection campaign started.
- #2 Devilesk got banned for linking OSMAP.
- #3 Devilesk started to fight with certain people on Bnet.
- #4 People got banned from op sen.
- #5 1st hack, Shocko's account. Signed by devilesk.
- #6 Clan (U) recruites Devilesk.
- #7 2nd hack, your and IP's accounts. Signed by devilesk.
- #8 3rd hack, IP's account. No signs.
- #9 Devilesk gains a high status in clan (U), he can now recruit new members.
- #10 LW's confesion.
Now even without deep research I can see that all these things float around clan (U).
#1, LW was taking part in the campaign as a "protection" specialist. He used our trust in order to steal our new protection methods and update OSMAP.
#2, Devilesk got quite too far into this. I don't know why exactly but it sure looks weird.
#3, Now this looks like devilesk.
#4, As I stated before only 2 people should have access to the bot, Cheeze and LW. At first I though that LW couldn't done that because he seemed a trustable person. But now, it's like BOOM, it must have been him. Looks like he doesn't have problems with having devilesk in his clan either.
#5, Looks like devilesk had a certain problem with Shocko. God knows what's in between them.
#6, Considering that LW(probably) did team up with devilesk. He didn't have a problem to have him in clan (U). The whole terrorist faction is there. LW, MindArchon and devilesk. All high members.
#7, Well, as we all know if he do it once, he'll do it again. But this time he left a rather odd note about you. I don;t know what under it but he did quite some harm. This time it looked pretty much planned out. Also he deleted my anti-OSMAP toppic.
#8, This looked like completely different guy. He didn't left devilesk sign. But still he coused some harm with merging topics. maybe some guy just saw that it's hell of a easy to hack SEN. Who knows.
#9, Devilesk becomes a recruiter. I guess he is resonable enough to recruit new terrorists.
#10, I have no idea why did LW confess. But he certainly knew that he would loose his status. Maybe he couldn't take the presure. Maybe there was someone who knew about OSMAP and even about hacks and everything. Maube this person told LW that he will tell it to you. God knows.
As you see, this whole mess floats around clan (U). I bet you can get out some more info doing some deeper research. But in any way, keep an eye on them.
You are a new member so I guess you aren't yet dragged into this stuff.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Joker47 on 2006-09-10 at 10:43:27
QUOTE(DEAD @ Sep 10 2006, 08:13 AM)
You are a new member so I guess you aren't yet dragged into this stuff.
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DEAD, what has clan (U) done to anybody?[right][snapback]558473[/snapback][/right]
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Gigins on 2006-09-10 at 10:45:29
Read the quote, silly.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Joker47 on 2006-09-10 at 11:37:35
QUOTE(DEAD @ Sep 10 2006, 08:45 AM)
Read the quote, silly.
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Basically you figure we are a terrorist organization created to destroy map making as we know it.[right][snapback]558487[/snapback][/right]
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Gigins on 2006-09-10 at 11:40:42
It's just a summary of what is happening lately. Maybe (U) doesn't but LW is gone on a rage.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by WoAHorde2 on 2006-09-10 at 12:28:21
QUOTE(Joker47 @ Sep 10 2006, 07:37 AM)
Basically you figure we are a terrorist organization created to destroy map making as we know it.
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No,hes saying th quote has members in (U) that were considered evil.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Cloud on 2006-09-10 at 14:37:40
QUOTE(DT_Battlekruser @ Sep 9 2006, 09:31 PM)
A big reason to leave this unlocked is to funnel everyone's immature emotions into one place rather than havign a plethora of new topics pop up.
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Wait so your basically letting people "flame" but as long as they're not like "ZOMG FREAKING *PERSONS NAME* SUCKS AND SHOULD GO DIE!#!#!" ??
QUOTE(Mini Moose 2707 @ Sep 9 2006, 10:00 PM)
Sometimes supressing it just isn't the best way out.
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Well said
QUOTE(Syphon(MM) @ Sep 9 2006, 11:13 PM)
The rigging argument is automatically nullified by the fact that you can use it to unrig.
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Who cares if your map gets rigged as long as you have the origional version of your own map then its fine, honestly I couldn't care less if anyone went and rigged my maps as long as I don't download them.(which would never happen but thats just me.)
QUOTE(Felagund @ Sep 10 2006, 01:39 AM)
If anything, I think LW should be banned so he gets a life. After all, it really says something about his social life if he took the time to make an unprotector for StarCraft of all games.
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After reading this I kinda think about why we're even arguing about starcraft, it's a game where people have fun, if they take pleasure in rigging our maps or...stealing them then we kinda did do what we tried to by making the map in the first place(and ya I know that what I'm saying is like "the frig are you talking about?!?" try to bear with me here).
Even going about saying this I still dont support Unprotection. I just came to realize it doesnt matter. In the end starcraft is just a game, nothing more.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DT_Battlekruser on 2006-09-10 at 15:08:22
QUOTE
Wait so your basically letting people "flame" but as long as they're not like "ZOMG FREAKING *PERSONS NAME* SUCKS AND SHOULD GO DIE!#!#!" ??
No, just letting them waste their breath with pointless and unthoughtout arguments. If this topic was locked, we'd get three or four more over in Other.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Joker47 on 2006-09-10 at 18:32:58
QUOTE(WoAHorde2 @ Sep 10 2006, 10:27 AM)
No,hes saying the quote has members in (U) that were considered evil.
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Evil is a matter of opinion, yes?[right][snapback]558549[/snapback][/right]
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Gigins on 2006-09-11 at 11:27:39
Hacking, producing unprotectors, banning ppl from op sen is evil? In my oppinion, yes...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Xx.Doom.xX on 2006-09-11 at 15:22:32
QUOTE(DEAD @ Sep 11 2006, 11:27 AM)
Hacking, producing unprotectors, banning ppl from op sen is evil? In my oppinion, yes...
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QUOTE(LegacyWeapon)
There will always be protection. And there will always be unprotection. But seeing the map making community today, I see people hiding their knowledge of mapping. I see people losing interest. What is wrong with people? I figured that if I could get them all to see how their predecessors made their maps, I could encourage them to use old techniques to make new ideas.
yea, so actually he didnt make it to let noobs say "OMFG OSMAP IS USED TO STEAL MAPS OMG", he made it for people to learn the old techniques of skilled mappers that we've known. But its true that noobs will just use it to steal maps, unfortunatly...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Cloud on 2006-09-11 at 16:34:37
QUOTE(DoomStrike @ Sep 11 2006, 07:22 PM)
yea, so actually he didnt make it to let noobs say "OMFG OSMAP IS USED TO STEAL MAPS OMG", he made it for people to learn the old techniques of skilled mappers that we've known. But its true that noobs will just use it to steal maps, unfortunatly...
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Even so show me any instances where its even been used for LW's purpose and tell me what the person actually LEARNED.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Urmom(U) on 2006-09-11 at 17:05:06
QUOTE(DEAD @ Sep 11 2006, 11:27 AM)
Hacking, producing unprotectors, banning ppl from op sen is evil? In my oppinion, yes...
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I'm pretty sure that devilesk didn't hack the website. Even if he did, he wasn't a part of the clan at the time. People get banned from people all the time in op sen, so what? And I don't feel like talking about the unprotector...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by yoni45 on 2006-09-11 at 22:17:44
To be quite honest, I'm sort of on Legacy's side for this...
Sort of because overall, people should have the "right" to lock their map if they so wish...
But that being said, *BIG F@*$ING DEAL*, I mean c'mon, the way the protector-unprotector wars have been going, there's a counter to most, and some of the newest ones have been bugging up maps... (no offence LW, but I couldn't stand uberation at one point because it'd crash my briefings to hell...)
And in addition, at least 2 people tried to OSMAP my map SC Tournament. It's an old version they tried to OSMAP, but heck, if that's not recognition, I don't know what is
ADDITION:
By the way Legacy, if you could, would you please be able to make a "Search" feature in your OSMAP Database terminal?
Sort of because overall, people should have the "right" to lock their map if they so wish...
But that being said, *BIG F@*$ING DEAL*, I mean c'mon, the way the protector-unprotector wars have been going, there's a counter to most, and some of the newest ones have been bugging up maps... (no offence LW, but I couldn't stand uberation at one point because it'd crash my briefings to hell...)
And in addition, at least 2 people tried to OSMAP my map SC Tournament. It's an old version they tried to OSMAP, but heck, if that's not recognition, I don't know what is
ADDITION:
By the way Legacy, if you could, would you please be able to make a "Search" feature in your OSMAP Database terminal?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Gigins on 2006-09-12 at 11:08:48
QUOTE(Urmom(U) @ Sep 12 2006, 12:04 AM)
I'm pretty sure that devilesk didn't hack the website. Even if he did, he wasn't a part of the clan at the time. People get banned from people all the time in op sen, so what? And I don't feel like talking about the unprotector...
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Websites get hacked all the time, so what? BS Urmom, you know it. A good person would never ban people from op sen just because devilesk is asking to do it.
Btw, devilek was part of the (U) while 2nd and 3rd hack.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by JaFF on 2006-09-12 at 14:53:43
Some say that he made osmap to help people learn, others claim that he just made all maps open source.
I'm sure he had another eason for creating it...
I'm sure he had another eason for creating it...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Centreri on 2006-09-12 at 15:37:09
QUOTE(DT_Battlekruser @ Sep 10 2006, 03:07 PM)
No, just letting them waste their breath with pointless and unthoughtout arguments. If this topic was locked, we'd get three or four more over in Other.
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Now that I know what this topic is for, I'm going to waste my breath with pointless and unthoughtout arguments! In fact, to show people how mad I am about this, I'll make some more topics about this in the 'Other' category, and even better, in the 'Serious Discussion' forum, because I want to waste as much breath as possible with pointless and unthoughtout arguments. Hey, I hope someone else likes this idea too, so we can do it together! [/sarcasm]
(U) isn't an evil clan, discuss it over PM's, not here. People have the right to protect their own maps and the will of one individual shouldn't be enough to change that.
Backseat Moderation FTW!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by yoni45 on 2006-09-12 at 18:06:00
QUOTE(LegacyWeapon @ Sep 12 2006, 01:51 PM)
Done.
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Awsome! Thanks
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Ninebreaker on 2006-09-13 at 00:25:41
Since some of you have already posted my thoughts, i have one thing to say:
Good job LW, congrats. Support you 100%, its just a game guys, why do you care who gets credit? Your not getting paid. Your not getting fame, except being known by a few geeky nerds.
Good job LW, congrats. Support you 100%, its just a game guys, why do you care who gets credit? Your not getting paid. Your not getting fame, except being known by a few geeky nerds.