Report, edit, etc...Posted by Cnl.Fatso on 2006-09-13 at 11:12:04
But remember that they have as equal right to protect their maps as you have to unprotect them. There is no cut-and-dried solution to this conflict for precisely that reason.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Red2Blue on 2006-09-13 at 11:35:39
Real men don't complain about protectors.
I guess im not a real man.
Stealing, the ultimate form of jealousy.
I guess im not a real man.
Stealing, the ultimate form of jealousy.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Felagund on 2006-09-17 at 12:52:04
Let's stir the embers. Who is still up for a lynching?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Gigins on 2006-09-17 at 13:11:44
I am. (U) must either change their terrorist leaders or be kicked out of this site.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Xx.Doom.xX on 2006-09-17 at 14:14:22
I wouldnt say they should be "kicked". Maybe devilesk should be kicked. But saying legacy should is only Kenoli's Decision. Actually, since he's one of the leaders, can he literally kick himself out of (U). Maybe leave the clan, but if someone kicks him out, i doubt he would be actually banned.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by WoAHorde2 on 2006-09-17 at 14:23:08
DEAD not all of (U) is bad like devilisk.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Gigins on 2006-09-17 at 17:12:56
Read the big quote. I'm not saying that everyone is bad there. I'm just saying that the leadership change must be enforced or we shall stop hosting them.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Tuxedo Templar on 2006-09-17 at 17:25:17
SEN is a general mapping site. It's in this context that things like unprotection are considered bad. (U) is a mapping clan. If they're not worried about leaving their maps vulnerable, then there's no specific reason under their context that unprotection should be bad.
Even if it was up to us to decide (U)'s leadership, the same jurisdiction that applies for the context of a clan wouldn't really apply for the context of a general mapping site (and visa versa). Unless that clan is somehow representative of the community, or something (and to some degree, historically, it is... but that's their reputation they need worry about).
The only real thing with (U) I disagree with maybe is giving devilesk recruitment powers. Whether he can make maps or not, giving a position of status to someone who is disrespectful to other mappers kinda makes me lose respect for them.
Even if it was up to us to decide (U)'s leadership, the same jurisdiction that applies for the context of a clan wouldn't really apply for the context of a general mapping site (and visa versa). Unless that clan is somehow representative of the community, or something (and to some degree, historically, it is... but that's their reputation they need worry about).
The only real thing with (U) I disagree with maybe is giving devilesk recruitment powers. Whether he can make maps or not, giving a position of status to someone who is disrespectful to other mappers kinda makes me lose respect for them.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mini Moose 2707 on 2006-09-17 at 17:51:15
Seems like it's boiling down to a question of "do the ends justify the means?"
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Gigins on 2006-09-17 at 18:03:33
Ok Tux, here a question.
Would we start hosting a clan lead by people who has released public unprotector, banned our members from our own clannel and possibly hacked our website?
I think not.
Now tell me again why shouldn't we stop hosting a clan like that?
Would we start hosting a clan lead by people who has released public unprotector, banned our members from our own clannel and possibly hacked our website?
I think not.
Now tell me again why shouldn't we stop hosting a clan like that?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by xmrxsiegecopx on 2006-09-17 at 18:22:07
QUOTE(DEAD @ Sep 17 2006, 03:03 PM)
Now tell me again why shouldn't we stop hosting a clan like that?
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Because (U) benefits the community too much to kick out.
LW and Kenoli still help out in MMA, (U_Bolt_Head helps somebody every few months, and Urmom(U), fritfrat(U), and other (U) members help out as well.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Tuxedo Templar on 2006-09-17 at 20:21:12
QUOTE(DEAD @ Sep 17 2006, 05:03 PM)
Ok Tux, here a question.
Would we start hosting a clan lead by people who has released public unprotector, banned our members from our own clannel and possibly hacked our website?
I think not.
Now tell me again why shouldn't we stop hosting a clan like that?
[right][snapback]562705[/snapback][/right]
Would we start hosting a clan lead by people who has released public unprotector, banned our members from our own clannel and possibly hacked our website?
I think not.
Now tell me again why shouldn't we stop hosting a clan like that?
[right][snapback]562705[/snapback][/right]
The hacking is speculation... unless someone knows the exact details of it for sure. That issue seems to center around devilesk more than (U), but LW's decision to recruit devilesk into (U) with special priviledges in spite of that seems to be in direct opposition to SEN's interests nonetheless. I don't know if that came before or after the unprotector announcement and LW's subsequent demotion, which would indicate some of his intent a bit clearer (specifically whether he had ill-intent for SEN in particular, or whether he's just sore after being demoted).
In either case, chances are if there's any kind of grudge or hostility I agree that it can't be ignored indefinitely. But I'd say do nothing for the time being anyway, as there really doesn't seem to be a need for anything to be done. But if anything more comes of it, then it might come down to either asking (U) to change leadership, or risk losing hosting at SEN. That of course would benefit neither side, though, so it's really not a decision anyone'd look forward to.
But really, LW got demoted, and devilesk got banned for their respective actions. What more do you want? (Or need?)
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Syphon on 2006-09-17 at 20:31:44
QUOTE(Mini Moose 2707 @ Sep 17 2006, 04:50 PM)
Seems like it's boiling down to a question of "do the ends justify the means?"
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I think it's the means justify the ends, in this case.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Tuxedo Templar on 2006-09-17 at 20:33:05
Ends justify the means in a war or an anarchy.
Means justify the ends in a civilization.
Take your pick.
Means justify the ends in a civilization.
Take your pick.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2006-09-17 at 22:36:18
I say we all stfu. Don't make this any worse than it already is.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Felagund on 2006-09-17 at 22:56:23
Ah MA, but then you are hypocritical by saying anything whatsoever!
I think a lot of people (in summary) are angry with LW because:
1) He had a lot of power and influence on this site.
2) He misled us with his "protection" efforts.
3) He had the audacity to let the public get upset over OSMAP then proclaim that he was the maker of the program instead of just making a post when he had first made it.
I think a lot of people (in summary) are angry with LW because:
1) He had a lot of power and influence on this site.
2) He misled us with his "protection" efforts.
3) He had the audacity to let the public get upset over OSMAP then proclaim that he was the maker of the program instead of just making a post when he had first made it.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2006-09-17 at 23:49:00
Ok so he's been fired for all those three reasons. Done.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Gigins on 2006-09-18 at 02:08:00
QUOTE(Tuxedo Templar @ Sep 18 2006, 03:20 AM)
The hacking is speculation... unless someone knows the exact details of it for sure. That issue seems to center around devilesk more than (U), but LW's decision to recruit devilesk into (U) with special priviledges in spite of that seems to be in direct opposition to SEN's interests nonetheless. I don't know if that came before or after the unprotector announcement and LW's subsequent demotion, which would indicate some of his intent a bit clearer (specifically whether he had ill-intent for SEN in particular, or whether he's just sore after being demoted).
In either case, chances are if there's any kind of grudge or hostility I agree that it can't be ignored indefinitely. But I'd say do nothing for the time being anyway, as there really doesn't seem to be a need for anything to be done. But if anything more comes of it, then it might come down to either asking (U) to change leadership, or risk losing hosting at SEN. That of course would benefit neither side, though, so it's really not a decision anyone'd look forward to.
But really, LW got demoted, and devilesk got banned for their respective actions. What more do you want? (Or need?)
[right][snapback]562814[/snapback][/right]
In either case, chances are if there's any kind of grudge or hostility I agree that it can't be ignored indefinitely. But I'd say do nothing for the time being anyway, as there really doesn't seem to be a need for anything to be done. But if anything more comes of it, then it might come down to either asking (U) to change leadership, or risk losing hosting at SEN. That of course would benefit neither side, though, so it's really not a decision anyone'd look forward to.
But really, LW got demoted, and devilesk got banned for their respective actions. What more do you want? (Or need?)
[right][snapback]562814[/snapback][/right]
Yes, hacking has not yet been proven. But trust me, either way at least one of 3 hacks is directly conected to (U).
BTW, the events in quote are ordered as they happened one by one. So yes devilesk was recruited right after the first hack.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Tuxedo Templar on 2006-09-18 at 02:56:52
Well if that's the case, then whether LW knew devilesk was the hacker or not at the time (or had some part in it) would be important. More so important if he knew devilesk was the hacker before being demodded.
If so, then we've established that he most likely did indeed have some sort of ill intent against SEN to begin with. What that means just yet, I'm not sure. Still don't think it calls for action against (U) specifically, though (but possibly maybe additional penalties for LW).
If so, then we've established that he most likely did indeed have some sort of ill intent against SEN to begin with. What that means just yet, I'm not sure. Still don't think it calls for action against (U) specifically, though (but possibly maybe additional penalties for LW).
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Gigins on 2006-09-18 at 03:36:48
Still you didn't answer my question. 
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Tuxedo Templar on 2006-09-18 at 04:04:10
QUOTE(DEAD @ Sep 17 2006, 05:03 PM)
Now tell me again why shouldn't we stop hosting a clan like that?
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Because (U) hasn't done anything wrong. Only LW and devilesk. And they've already gotten their respective punishments.
Now, if LW were to use (U) for something bad against SEN, then my above ultimatum would likely be the correct approach.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Gigins on 2006-09-18 at 04:21:15
I must agree that I have nothing against clan (U) in general, I think it's a good clan. But what worries me is that terrorist faction that has infected it. 
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kenoli on 2006-09-18 at 06:47:54
QUOTE(DEAD)
I must agree that I have nothing against clan (U) in general, I think it's a good clan. But what worries me is that terrorist faction that has infected it.
You probably woudn't have to worry so much if you didn't keep perpetuating your own stories.Report, edit, etc...Posted by Gigins on 2006-09-18 at 11:45:11
Excuse me? My own stories? Call be Bill Clinton if I made anything of this up:
The rest is just my conclusions, that I belive doesn't differ much from any other member's conclusions if he thinks about these 10 evens without being biased. As a clan member you probably have problems accepting the obvious.
Besides I haven't heard anything opposite from anybody like explaining that why it does look like that.
My conclusion:
- #1 OSMAP released, big protection campaign started.
- #2 Devilesk got banned for linking OSMAP.
- #3 Devilesk started to fight with certain people on Bnet.
- #4 People got banned from op sen.
- #5 1st hack, Shocko's account. Signed by devilesk.
- #6 Clan (U) recruites Devilesk.
- #7 2nd hack, Moose's and IP's accounts. Signed by devilesk.
- #8 3rd hack, IP's account. No signs.
- #9 Devilesk gains a high status in clan (U), he can now recruit new members.
- #10 LW's confesion.
The rest is just my conclusions, that I belive doesn't differ much from any other member's conclusions if he thinks about these 10 evens without being biased. As a clan member you probably have problems accepting the obvious.
Besides I haven't heard anything opposite from anybody like explaining that why it does look like that.
My conclusion:
QUOTE
Now even without deep research I can see that all these things float around clan (U).
#1, LW was taking part in the campaign as a "protection" specialist. He used our trust in order to steal our new protection methods and update OSMAP.
#2, Devilesk got quite too far into this. I don't know why exactly but it sure looks weird.
#3, Now this looks like devilesk.
#4, As I stated before only 2 people should have access to the bot, Cheeze and LW. At first I though that LW couldn't done that because he seemed a trustable person. But now, it's like BOOM, it must have been him. Looks like he doesn't have problems with having devilesk in his clan either.
#5, Looks like devilesk had a certain problem with Shocko. God knows what's in between them.
#6, Considering that LW(probably) did team up with devilesk. He didn't have a problem to have him in clan (U). The whole terrorist faction is there. LW, MindArchon and devilesk. All high members.
#7, Well, as we all know if he do it once, he'll do it again. But this time he left a rather odd note about you. I don;t know what under it but he did quite some harm. This time it looked pretty much planned out. Also he deleted my anti-OSMAP toppic.
#8, This looked like completely different guy. He didn't left devilesk sign. But still he coused some harm with merging topics. maybe some guy just saw that it's hell of a easy to hack SEN. Who knows.
#9, Devilesk becomes a recruiter. I guess he is resonable enough to recruit new terrorists.
#10, I have no idea why did LW confess. But he certainly knew that he would loose his status. Maybe he couldn't take the presure. Maybe there was someone who knew about OSMAP and even about hacks and everything. Maybe this person told LW that he will tell it to you. God knows.
As you see, this whole mess floats around clan (U). I bet you can get out some more info doing some deeper research. But in any way, keep an eye on them.
#1, LW was taking part in the campaign as a "protection" specialist. He used our trust in order to steal our new protection methods and update OSMAP.
#2, Devilesk got quite too far into this. I don't know why exactly but it sure looks weird.
#3, Now this looks like devilesk.
#4, As I stated before only 2 people should have access to the bot, Cheeze and LW. At first I though that LW couldn't done that because he seemed a trustable person. But now, it's like BOOM, it must have been him. Looks like he doesn't have problems with having devilesk in his clan either.
#5, Looks like devilesk had a certain problem with Shocko. God knows what's in between them.
#6, Considering that LW(probably) did team up with devilesk. He didn't have a problem to have him in clan (U). The whole terrorist faction is there. LW, MindArchon and devilesk. All high members.
#7, Well, as we all know if he do it once, he'll do it again. But this time he left a rather odd note about you. I don;t know what under it but he did quite some harm. This time it looked pretty much planned out. Also he deleted my anti-OSMAP toppic.
#8, This looked like completely different guy. He didn't left devilesk sign. But still he coused some harm with merging topics. maybe some guy just saw that it's hell of a easy to hack SEN. Who knows.
#9, Devilesk becomes a recruiter. I guess he is resonable enough to recruit new terrorists.
#10, I have no idea why did LW confess. But he certainly knew that he would loose his status. Maybe he couldn't take the presure. Maybe there was someone who knew about OSMAP and even about hacks and everything. Maybe this person told LW that he will tell it to you. God knows.
As you see, this whole mess floats around clan (U). I bet you can get out some more info doing some deeper research. But in any way, keep an eye on them.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mini Moose 2707 on 2006-09-18 at 13:57:45
I am 99% sure that Devilesk did not hack the site, nor send anyone to hack the site. We were so vulnerable any script kiddie could have done it.